1
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:11,760
- [Dan] I'm Dan Farrell.

2
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,010
I work in the Wildlife Diversity Program

3
00:00:14,010 --> 00:00:16,690
in the Vermont Fish and
Wildlife Department.

4
00:00:16,690 --> 00:00:19,090
I spent much of this
past summer documenting

5
00:00:19,090 --> 00:00:20,750
state significant examples

6
00:00:20,750 --> 00:00:24,740
of an under-surveyed wetland,
natural community type,

7
00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:27,370
northern hardwood seepage forest.

8
00:00:27,370 --> 00:00:29,970
My goal today is to introduce
you to this important

9
00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:33,330
and elusive, new community type,

10
00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:36,840
and raise awareness of
its characteristics.

11
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,840
I figure after more people experience it,

12
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:40,890
we can, you'd, earned even more about it.

13
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,700
Northern hardwood seepage
forest was recently added

14
00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:50,530
to the state's list of recognized
natural community types,

15
00:00:50,530 --> 00:00:54,840
and was introduced to the public in 2019

16
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,280
in the second edition of
"Wetland, Woodland, Wildland"

17
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,173
by Liz Thompson, Eric
Sorenson, and Bob Zaino.

18
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,170
Very similar community types occur

19
00:01:06,170 --> 00:01:08,550
in New Hampshire and Maine.

20
00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:11,670
It is also called northern
hardwood seepage forest

21
00:01:11,670 --> 00:01:14,563
in New Hampshire and hardwood
seepage forest in Maine.

22
00:01:16,890 --> 00:01:20,290
Vermont ecologists like Marc
Lapin and Brett Engstrom

23
00:01:20,290 --> 00:01:22,590
have observed the type for many years,

24
00:01:22,590 --> 00:01:26,143
but it didn't fit well in
the Vermont classification.

25
00:01:27,470 --> 00:01:30,140
Probably because it's not a swamp.

26
00:01:30,140 --> 00:01:33,740
And notice it's called a
seepage forest, not a swamp

27
00:01:33,740 --> 00:01:35,103
or a seepage swamp.

28
00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:38,580
In 2017, our understanding

29
00:01:38,580 --> 00:01:40,550
of northern hardwood seepage forest

30
00:01:40,550 --> 00:01:43,050
was increased significantly by the work

31
00:01:43,050 --> 00:01:47,300
of Hannah Phillips that she
did for her master's project

32
00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:49,400
for the Ecological Planning Program

33
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:50,863
at University of Vermont.

34
00:01:53,290 --> 00:01:56,060
On the summer solstice of 2017,

35
00:01:56,060 --> 00:02:00,290
about 20 ecologists and
foresters visited seepage forests

36
00:02:00,290 --> 00:02:01,710
in the field.

37
00:02:01,710 --> 00:02:03,480
And we discussed, among other things,

38
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,590
how it differs from swamps,

39
00:02:05,590 --> 00:02:10,590
and also from just regular wet
inclusions in upland forests.

40
00:02:12,270 --> 00:02:15,650
This past summer, I surveyed
about 15 seepage forests.

41
00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:18,750
Some of them with Everett
Marshall and Eric Sorenson,

42
00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:21,320
also of the Wildlife Diversity Program

43
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,520
in the Vermont Fish and
Wildlife Department.

44
00:02:24,490 --> 00:02:26,773
Our work was funded by an EPA grant.

45
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,020
And this work, our work,
along with Hannah's

46
00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:35,173
and that of other ecologists
informs this presentation.

47
00:02:39,370 --> 00:02:42,400
This is a drafty map of most

48
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,200
of the 40 currently known locations

49
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,350
of northern hardwood
seepage forests in Vermont.

50
00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:51,540
We think there are more in the northeast,

51
00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:53,340
and at higher elevations,

52
00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:55,860
places where there is more precipitation

53
00:02:55,860 --> 00:02:58,353
and less evapotranspiration than others.

54
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,810
We think that there are roughly

55
00:03:01,810 --> 00:03:05,670
100 state significant occurrences,

56
00:03:05,670 --> 00:03:08,950
but some suspect this estimate is too low.

57
00:03:08,950 --> 00:03:11,330
State significant
occurrences are occurrences

58
00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:15,500
of the type that meet certain criteria

59
00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:19,743
of a ranking of landscape condition,

60
00:03:21,340 --> 00:03:24,333
actual condition of the
forest, and also size.

61
00:03:26,630 --> 00:03:28,080
But it's important to know

62
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,910
that there are likely many more

63
00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:33,250
than 100 non-state significant occurrences

64
00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:36,033
that are also important
and have ecological value.

65
00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:38,640
We are still learning

66
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,530
about northern hardwood seepage forests,

67
00:03:40,530 --> 00:03:42,280
but we know they're important.

68
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:43,113
Why?

69
00:03:44,140 --> 00:03:46,333
They are very diverse in plant species.

70
00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:48,540
They are wetlands,

71
00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:51,410
although they're usually
mapped as uplands.

72
00:03:51,410 --> 00:03:53,010
Now, that is currently,

73
00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:55,580
they rarely appear on wetland maps

74
00:03:55,580 --> 00:03:58,490
because they are hard to detect remotely.

75
00:03:58,490 --> 00:04:00,950
And we will be sharing our work

76
00:04:00,950 --> 00:04:03,550
with the Vermont Wetlands Program

77
00:04:03,550 --> 00:04:05,970
at the Vermont Department of
Environmental Conservation.

78
00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:08,270
And it's important to know
that they're also doing

79
00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:11,060
their own mapping of
these types of forests

80
00:04:11,060 --> 00:04:12,393
in the wetlands program.

81
00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:14,593
They benefit animals.

82
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,373
They provide habitat
for several salamanders.

83
00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:22,980
The soil warmed by
groundwater in winter means

84
00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:24,540
an early spring thaw,

85
00:04:24,540 --> 00:04:28,440
and food for bears
emerging from hibernation.

86
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:29,910
Moose feed on vegetation,

87
00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:34,103
especially in natural, open portions.

88
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,180
Cool water supplied to
streams by these forests

89
00:04:39,180 --> 00:04:40,460
in the heat of summer

90
00:04:40,460 --> 00:04:43,250
create thermal refugia for brook trout

91
00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:44,870
and other fish species.

92
00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:46,660
This will become more
important, obviously,

93
00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:48,093
as the climate warms.

94
00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:50,650
And as headwater wetlands,

95
00:04:50,650 --> 00:04:54,383
they can slow runoff and
increase flood resilience.

96
00:04:55,490 --> 00:04:57,513
Also important for climate resilience.

97
00:04:59,530 --> 00:05:02,580
Like woodland seeps, they
are fed by groundwater,

98
00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:05,660
but they are larger, often much larger.

99
00:05:05,660 --> 00:05:07,740
They're usually on gentle slopes

100
00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:09,980
where the groundwater is
prevented from draining

101
00:05:09,980 --> 00:05:12,060
by an impermeable layer,

102
00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:16,110
usually a compacted basal
till that has been compressed

103
00:05:16,110 --> 00:05:18,654
between the glacier and the bedrock.

104
00:05:18,654 --> 00:05:22,660
This causes sheet flow
of water percolating

105
00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:25,310
horizontally through the soil.

106
00:05:25,310 --> 00:05:27,700
The water has often a high pH

107
00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:29,513
and high nutrient availability.

108
00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:35,100
I found the pH of surface
water to be between 6.5 and 7.2

109
00:05:37,190 --> 00:05:39,653
in the sites that I visited.

110
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,750
This seems to be a typical scenario,

111
00:05:42,750 --> 00:05:44,190
the one I just described in general,

112
00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:48,620
but bedrock forms an
impermeable layer on some sites

113
00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:50,090
instead of the basal till.

114
00:05:50,090 --> 00:05:53,343
And some do occur on deep muck.

115
00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:57,490
And others are on steep
slopes up to 15 degrees.

116
00:05:57,490 --> 00:06:00,960
And we think there are acidic versions,

117
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,060
but even the soil at a site where granite,

118
00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:06,370
a known sort of acidic rock,

119
00:06:06,370 --> 00:06:11,370
or causing acidic soils,
forms the impermeable layer,

120
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,810
where the granite forms
the impermeable layer,

121
00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:19,240
it had a pH of six.

122
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:20,073
Somewhat high.

123
00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:24,990
Abundant hummocks mostly
created by root balls

124
00:06:24,990 --> 00:06:28,510
from fallen trees create
a fine micro topography.

125
00:06:28,510 --> 00:06:31,440
And so the hummocks and dry inclusions

126
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,023
create a mosaic of upland
areas within the wetland.

127
00:06:37,470 --> 00:06:40,660
Some drier areas have a closed canopy.

128
00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:42,823
And wetter areas can be quite open.

129
00:06:45,170 --> 00:06:48,930
Soils are usually about five
inches of loamy, organic muck,

130
00:06:48,930 --> 00:06:52,780
over another six inches or so
of glade, loamy, mineral soil

131
00:06:52,780 --> 00:06:57,186
with a few red models over compacted till,

132
00:06:57,186 --> 00:06:59,623
as shown in the root ball on the right.

133
00:07:00,622 --> 00:07:02,810
I should say that this compacted till

134
00:07:02,810 --> 00:07:06,350
you're seeing in that
root ball is quite dense.

135
00:07:06,350 --> 00:07:11,350
And it's very difficult to
drive a soil auger through it,

136
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,193
even, very far,

137
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,560
Common soil series are
Cabot, Peru and Buckland,

138
00:07:22,570 --> 00:07:26,200
and also Marlow, and have
a compacted basal till

139
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,173
as apparent material.

140
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,780
The seepage often forms runs
that become the headwaters

141
00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:37,733
of small streams as they merge together,

142
00:07:38,660 --> 00:07:41,870
and deeper channels act
like drainage ditches

143
00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:44,640
and create dry areas nearby.

144
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,860
So at the downstream end
of the seepage forest,

145
00:07:48,860 --> 00:07:51,003
these channels seem to sort of dry it out.

146
00:07:56,940 --> 00:08:00,270
So variability in canopy cover,

147
00:08:00,270 --> 00:08:03,670
and depth to water table and high pH

148
00:08:03,670 --> 00:08:06,990
and nutrient availability
means wetland species,

149
00:08:06,990 --> 00:08:10,570
upland species, nutrient-loving
species, shade-loving,

150
00:08:10,570 --> 00:08:14,530
and sun-loving species
often occur as side-by-side

151
00:08:14,530 --> 00:08:16,513
or near to one another,

152
00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:20,290
which in turn means
high species diversity.

153
00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:25,290
So high habitat diversity
means high species richness.

154
00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:31,295
Herbaceous species cover
is usually over 90%

155
00:08:31,295 --> 00:08:36,040
in two 20-by-20 meter plots,
I counted 57 and 63 species.

156
00:08:37,150 --> 00:08:42,150
A 15-by-20 meter high
elevation plot had 54 species.

157
00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:45,600
And I'll add here that these forests

158
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,250
are very pleasant places to visit

159
00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:51,193
on a hot summer day because
they are literally cool.

160
00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:55,653
And they have a lot of
great plants to look at.

161
00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,820
Closed canopy areas are
dominated by sugar maple

162
00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:04,150
and yellow birch, with
some white ash, black ash,

163
00:09:04,150 --> 00:09:06,683
other northern hardwoods and balsam fir.

164
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,540
Wetter areas are woodlands,

165
00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,170
or very open with more black ash.

166
00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:14,430
Some open wet areas are in transition

167
00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:16,623
with many standing, dead trees.

168
00:09:19,150 --> 00:09:22,460
Common wetland plants include
northeastern manna grass,

169
00:09:22,460 --> 00:09:27,330
gynandrous sedge, common
jewelweed, foamflower,

170
00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:31,320
dwarf raspberry, rough-leaved goldenrod,

171
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:36,320
purple-stemmed aster, water
avens, alderleaf buckthorn,

172
00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:41,220
false hellebore, lady fern, cinnamon fern,

173
00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:44,253
sensitive fern, and rough-stemmed sedge.

174
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,300
Species on hummocks
include whorled wood aster,

175
00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,800
intermediate woodfern, fall Solomon seal,

176
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,190
bunchberry, and Sarsaparilla.

177
00:09:57,190 --> 00:10:00,860
Nutrient-loving species
include silver glade fern,

178
00:10:00,860 --> 00:10:05,853
zigzag goldenrod, blue cohosh,
and plantation leave sedge.

179
00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:09,870
Some uncommon species are regularly found,

180
00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:12,810
including long-bracketed green orchid,

181
00:10:12,810 --> 00:10:14,673
and large yellow lady slipper.

182
00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:21,840
Musk flower occurs in
the most open, wet parts.

183
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,270
And northern wild licorice is found

184
00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:26,220
at the top of the seepage usually,

185
00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:28,920
right where the right rear
it comes out of the ground.

186
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,440
The rare, hairy wood mint,

187
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,580
and the rare to uncommon
large toothwort seem

188
00:10:34,580 --> 00:10:36,493
to occur at higher elevations.

189
00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:42,570
Eric Sorenson recently
told me that he expects

190
00:10:42,570 --> 00:10:44,200
that the variance ultimately

191
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,880
will reflect Vermont's major forest types,

192
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,600
including northern hardwoods,
hemlock, and spruce fir.

193
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,520
And so maybe not oak pine, it
seems a little bit too dry,

194
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:57,470
but you never know.

195
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,920
So the montane seepage forest shown here

196
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,180
is a variant that occurs
above about 2,000 feet,

197
00:11:06,180 --> 00:11:10,333
often with open glades and
a canopy of yellow birch,

198
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,230
red spruce and balsam fir.

199
00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:16,883
Falls hellebore and mountain
woodfern are common.

200
00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:20,890
And northern wild licorice
and hairy wood mint

201
00:11:20,890 --> 00:11:22,233
are sometimes present.

202
00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:25,460
Some montane seepage forests

203
00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:28,860
are much more like
montane spruce fir forest,

204
00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:32,190
vegetatively, as can be seen here.

205
00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:36,320
And overall, this variant may
be more common than we think,

206
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,220
and we have a lot to learn about them.

207
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,380
Black ash seepage woodlands

208
00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:46,640
are dominated by an open
canopy of black ash,

209
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,690
and often appear as
inclusions in the main type,

210
00:11:49,690 --> 00:11:51,540
with a wetter, flatter surface,

211
00:11:51,540 --> 00:11:53,393
and very dense herbaceous cover.

212
00:11:56,870 --> 00:12:00,180
Hemlock seepage forest
is dominated by hemlock.

213
00:12:00,180 --> 00:12:02,130
And I only know of two sites,

214
00:12:02,130 --> 00:12:05,320
and they're both at
relatively low elevations.

215
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,320
And maybe they'll be a little
further south than most.

216
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,740
Okay, how to find them.

217
00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:19,060
Since they occur on
slopes with canopy species

218
00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:21,180
like northern hardwood forest,

219
00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:23,830
northern hardwood seepage
forests can be difficult

220
00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:26,813
to find using remote sensing
data like aerial photography.

221
00:12:28,712 --> 00:12:30,150
And they are regularly mapped

222
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:33,210
as upland natural community types.

223
00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:36,670
And as I mentioned, known
occurrences are rarely included

224
00:12:36,670 --> 00:12:37,993
on wetland maps.

225
00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:44,240
So, but some datasets do
provide clues to their presence,

226
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,190
though gentle slopes below distinct break

227
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:48,060
with steeper slopes,

228
00:12:48,060 --> 00:12:49,693
which I think you can see here,

229
00:12:51,810 --> 00:12:56,090
especially on Cabot, Peru,
Marlow or Buckland soils

230
00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:59,560
are promising, and seepage
runs are often apparent

231
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:01,873
on LIDAR, although not
here, at least to me.

232
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:08,420
And wet canopy openings are
visible on aerial photos,

233
00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:11,740
as shown in the black ovals.

234
00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:13,780
But there are no guarantees.

235
00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:16,500
At one site, I found
them almost everywhere

236
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,280
with promising topography.

237
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,330
In others, I did not.

238
00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:22,900
And I soon realized I
couldn't make assumptions

239
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:23,970
beyond my sight line.

240
00:13:23,970 --> 00:13:27,544
I often had to walk the boundaries

241
00:13:27,544 --> 00:13:30,770
with my GPS in order to map them.

242
00:13:30,770 --> 00:13:34,210
And in some cases, when they disappeared,

243
00:13:34,210 --> 00:13:36,260
their disappearance seemed to be related

244
00:13:36,260 --> 00:13:39,050
to small bedrock-related
topographic features

245
00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:40,670
or increases in slope.

246
00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:44,150
But I suppose if you
don't have the groundwater

247
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:46,410
and the impermeable
surface, in some cases,

248
00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:47,663
it just disappears.

249
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,440
So management conditions, considerations.

250
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,693
Northern hardwood seepage
forests are fragile.

251
00:13:57,570 --> 00:14:00,170
They're especially hard
to detect in winter.

252
00:14:00,170 --> 00:14:02,110
So it's important to delineate them

253
00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:03,943
during the growing season.

254
00:14:07,963 --> 00:14:10,800
Running and compaction
from forestry equipment

255
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,140
can create channels that drain them,

256
00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:15,983
or otherwise significantly
alter their hydrology.

257
00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:22,150
We think cutting in or uphill
of community occurrences has,

258
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,050
in some cases, reduced
evapotranspiration enough

259
00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:29,190
to raise the water table,

260
00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:30,920
leading to the die off of trees

261
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,290
and possibly a permanent
transition to sedge, cattail,

262
00:14:35,290 --> 00:14:37,990
or alder-dominated wetlands.

263
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:41,460
An experimental study
co-authored by Tony D'Amato

264
00:14:41,460 --> 00:14:42,680
of the Rubenstein School

265
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,800
documented a similar process

266
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,233
in black ash wetlands in Minnesota.

267
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:53,650
So increased awareness and documentation

268
00:14:53,830 --> 00:14:56,250
of this important natural community type

269
00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:58,760
will foster further
understanding and mapping.

270
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,600
And there are many outstanding questions.

271
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,490
How many are there? Where are they?

272
00:15:04,490 --> 00:15:07,200
What is the variation
in species composition?

273
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,510
And are there more acidic versions?

274
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:10,503
So stay tuned.

275
00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:14,050
And it's probably obvious by now

276
00:15:14,050 --> 00:15:15,660
that a lot of people have contributed

277
00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:17,750
to our understanding
of this community type.

278
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:20,430
Here are some of the people who increased

279
00:15:20,430 --> 00:15:22,540
my understanding of it.

280
00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:23,783
Thank you very much.

281
00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:31,070
- Great. Thank you.

282
00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:32,770
So now we have time for questions.

283
00:15:33,620 --> 00:15:35,470
I see maybe there's some in the chat.

284
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:40,690
One from Charlie is, "What is causing

285
00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:43,120
the nutrient enrichment
in seepage forests?

286
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,690
Bedrock, till chemistry, hydrology,

287
00:15:45,690 --> 00:15:47,367
topographic, or climactic?"

288
00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:51,250
- Hmm. A very good question.

289
00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:56,250
I think when it comes
to the mystery of water

290
00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:58,943
under the ground,

291
00:16:01,815 --> 00:16:04,323
I'm not really sure
exactly what's going on.

292
00:16:05,479 --> 00:16:07,580
I assume.

293
00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:09,080
I'll say what I assume though.

294
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,040
I assume that it is coming
from the groundwater

295
00:16:15,210 --> 00:16:19,693
that's made contact with
bedrock and/or till,

296
00:16:21,340 --> 00:16:25,660
and come out with a
higher nutrient content

297
00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:27,803
and at a higher pH.

298
00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:32,400
I don't know, but that's what I assume.

299
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,750
So I assume it's one of
the first two choices,

300
00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:38,293
bedrock and till chemistry,
for the most part.

301
00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:41,900
I should say that, yeah, till chemistry

302
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:43,440
might play a big role.

303
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,440
There is some, Hannah Phillips
speculated in her work that-

304
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,020
- Uh oh, you were muted, Dan, somehow.

305
00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:06,723
- Oh, can anybody hear me?

306
00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:09,660
Yeah.

307
00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:10,763
So sorry.

308
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,003
So I'll start over. 'Cause
none of that was heard, right?

309
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:17,940
- We heard in the beginning, but.

310
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:18,840
- Oh, okay.

311
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,810
Well anyway, I would say it's
one of the first two choices,

312
00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:23,290
bedrock or till chemistry,

313
00:17:23,290 --> 00:17:24,950
but I am a little uncertain

314
00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:28,830
as to how things go under the ground.

315
00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:33,480
But there, there are possibly
more acidic versions,

316
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,123
I just haven't seen them myself.

317
00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:41,491
- We have a hand raised from Sean.

318
00:17:41,491 --> 00:17:44,180
And then we have a few
more questions in the chat.

319
00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:45,013
- Great.

320
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:49,920
- Yeah, Dan. I really, enjoyed your talk.

321
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,310
It's just fascinating to hear about these.

322
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:56,640
And I've seen communities
like this in Northern Maine,

323
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,630
but they're often really small,

324
00:17:58,630 --> 00:18:01,100
like typically less than one acre.

325
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,760
But then, your map showed some,

326
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,460
what seemed like really large polygons.

327
00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:10,460
Are they really that large
where you find them in Vermont?

328
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:13,753
- Yeah.

329
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:18,930
Yes. And those were, I
mean, I think those were on,

330
00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:23,580
I think that was about
20-plus acres in total.

331
00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:26,120
And there were other places

332
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:31,120
that are larger on,
near the same location.

333
00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:33,590
Those might be some of the
biggest ones, you know,

334
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:34,890
the ones that are most obvious.

335
00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:36,270
That those are actually ones

336
00:18:36,270 --> 00:18:39,780
that some of those are
ones that Hannah found,

337
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,930
not the ones actually I
showed, but Hannah Phillips.

338
00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:48,120
And so I might've been directed
towards a very good spot.

339
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:52,530
Liz Thompson said they go
on forever in that location.

340
00:18:52,530 --> 00:18:54,680
So they might not, I don't know

341
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,303
if we'll find anymore that big.

342
00:18:59,330 --> 00:19:00,163
Yeah.

343
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:02,690
- Okay. Thank you.

344
00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:03,553
- Yeah. Thanks.

345
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,650
- There are several very
good questions in the chat,

346
00:19:07,650 --> 00:19:08,890
but we are over time.

347
00:19:08,890 --> 00:19:11,590
So I don't know, Dan, if you
are willing to hang out here.

348
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:13,063
- I'm willing to hang out

349
00:19:13,063 --> 00:19:13,896
if anybody else is.
- I'm gonna hop

350
00:19:13,896 --> 00:19:14,729
to the next one,

351
00:19:14,729 --> 00:19:17,283
but if anybody has a question,
sounds like Dan will stay.

352
00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:19,340
And then we'll be moving on

353
00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:22,190
to our next contributed talk at 10:25.

354
00:19:22,190 --> 00:19:23,720
Thanks again, Dan.

355
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:24,553
- Thank you.

356
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:32,303
Oh, okay.

357
00:19:32,303 --> 00:19:34,517
So I'm gonna read the chat
to find some questions,

358
00:19:34,517 --> 00:19:38,263
unless anybody wants to
ask them to me directly.

359
00:19:42,330 --> 00:19:45,697
So this is from River Matthew.

360
00:19:45,697 --> 00:19:48,469
"This is really interesting stuff. Thanks,

361
00:19:48,469 --> 00:19:50,010
presenting this information.

362
00:19:50,010 --> 00:19:51,950
I'm wondering about the
importance of black ash

363
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:53,560
to seepage forest in the northeast.

364
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,700
What do you think of
implications of emerald ash borer

365
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:58,780
and black ash mortality
may be to seepage forest?

366
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:03,180
What species make up the
regeneration within these forests?

367
00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:08,180
And are there signs as to what
species may replace black ash

368
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:11,680
within these forests?

369
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,580
So these are great questions.

370
00:20:14,580 --> 00:20:19,190
And it did come up in,
Hannah's sort of speculated

371
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:22,170
about a little bit, Hannah Phillips.

372
00:20:22,170 --> 00:20:23,520
I think.

373
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,520
And also that's what the
work that Tony D'Amato

374
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,530
coauthored about the black
ash swamps in Michigan,

375
00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:36,210
was actually about what would happen

376
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:41,730
if these wetlands lost their black ash.

377
00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:45,597
And I think the idea is that there are,

378
00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:51,110
I think that they might
water up, so to speak,

379
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:53,080
that the water table might raise

380
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,380
if we lose the black ash

381
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:58,930
that's in the wettest portions
of these of these forests.

382
00:20:58,930 --> 00:21:02,310
And that might kill other species

383
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:06,580
or make other woody species
not be able to survive there.

384
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:08,340
And they could convert

385
00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:13,340
in a similar way to if
the canopy was removed.

386
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,230
So we don't really know,
but that's sort of a guess.

387
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:20,590
And we've seem to have
found this kind of activity,

388
00:21:20,590 --> 00:21:23,960
not when cuttings happen in these forests,

389
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,330
but we still have a lot more to learn.

390
00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:27,357
So these are really good questions.

391
00:21:27,357 --> 00:21:29,823
And I think we just have to pay attention.

392
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,980
I'm gonna keep going, unless
anybody wants to jump in.

393
00:21:34,887 --> 00:21:38,320
"Is there a place where people can report

394
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,530
and provide coordinates for new
discoveries of this forest?"

395
00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:42,970
Yes, you can contact me.

396
00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:45,593
And I should put my email in the chat.

397
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:50,310
And in general, you can contact us

398
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:51,610
at the Wildlife Diversity Program

399
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:53,960
at the Vermont Department
of Fish and Wildlife.

400
00:21:55,060 --> 00:21:59,010
And if there's potentially
state significant occurrences

401
00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:03,310
of these, and I'll sort of
leave it there, but please do.

402
00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:04,940
And I would encourage it.

403
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,440
You know, I sort of hope we find,

404
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,570
that's what this presentation
is sort of about for me

405
00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:12,770
is to spread the word
and get more information.

406
00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:13,747
Nancy Patch.

407
00:22:13,747 --> 00:22:15,700
"I have real concerns
about forest management

408
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:17,340
in Eastern communities.

409
00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:20,400
They start with low market feasibility

410
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,240
and are extremely difficult to regenerate,

411
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,987
needing big wood on the floor and tip ups

412
00:22:30,455 --> 00:22:32,550
for seedling establishment.

413
00:22:32,550 --> 00:22:34,250
Thoughts on this?

414
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:36,780
The Northern Green Mountains
in Northwestern Vermont

415
00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:39,530
may have large seepage forests."

416
00:22:39,530 --> 00:22:42,510
Yes. I've seen some of
those. I want to see more.

417
00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:45,510
So, yeah, I've seen a lot of,

418
00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:48,410
I think a lot of seedlings
growing on tip ups

419
00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:53,380
and regenerating on tip
ups, on the logs themselves,

420
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,793
decomposing logs and the root balls.

421
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,851
Yeah, I think, I agree with all of that.

422
00:23:01,851 --> 00:23:05,570
I don't know if I can say
much more than I agree

423
00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:08,863
that management seems to disrupt these,

424
00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:13,373
or would seem to disrupt
these pretty significantly.

425
00:23:16,580 --> 00:23:19,040
Yeah, and also, it's also a
part of the recommendation

426
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,130
to try not to disturb the topography

427
00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:25,470
or when you're working in these forests,

428
00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:28,270
to preserve that sort of hummock hollow,

429
00:23:28,270 --> 00:23:30,790
which would be important for that.

430
00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:32,960
We are at time.

431
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,400
And I guess, let's see.

432
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,433
I'm gonna take.

433
00:23:42,317 --> 00:23:44,920
"Echoing Nancy" from Tony McCullough.

434
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,753
Hi, Tony.

435
00:23:46,637 --> 00:23:51,080
"As someone who reviews chip
harvest jobs in the state,

436
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,020
I wonder if this,

437
00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:54,260
what needs to be done to
protect seepage forests,

438
00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:56,280
especially since they aren't mapped?

439
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,533
I think they need to be
delineated in the summer.

440
00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:02,700
You need to go out and find
out there where they are

441
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:03,640
because you can't really see

442
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,510
where they are in winter often.

443
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:07,320
And I think they should be flagged off.

444
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,080
I've seen that when
I've been in the field.

445
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,620
And I think that's good for starters.

446
00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:17,064
So I guess, oh, there's my presentation,

447
00:24:17,064 --> 00:24:19,340
I mean, my email.

448
00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:20,480
Great. Thank you.

449
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,767
I guess I'm gonna leave it while Charlie,

450
00:24:22,767 --> 00:24:26,050
"Pedohydrology at the Hubbard Brook,

451
00:24:26,050 --> 00:24:29,260
especially at Scott Bailey,
had been studying change,

452
00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:32,177
the charging and flow
paths are very important."

453
00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:38,090
Interesting, cool.

454
00:24:38,090 --> 00:24:39,550
More things to think about.

455
00:24:39,550 --> 00:24:40,500
All right. I guess that's it.

456
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:41,333
I better close out.

457
00:24:41,333 --> 00:24:42,720
Everybody's got to get to another show.

458
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,913
All right. Thank you very much.