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[Alana] Okay, thank you all for coming.

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This is the phenology
monitoring working session,

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Exploring Benefits and Challenges

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of Phenology Monitoring in the Northeast.

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I'm Alana Russell.

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I am a research assistant

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with the University of Rhode Island.

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And I just wanna mention
the genesis of this

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really came about, so it was
a lot of talk in Rhode Island,

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many different operators
in amongst our groups

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wondering if phenology monitoring

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is something that we should
be pursuing in Rhode Island.

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But we started talking, and we really,

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we wanted to know, what is the benefit,

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what would be the real
objective of doing this?

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And it got us thinking, well,

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to be able to compare phenology
to historical monitoring

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is really the benefit that we want,

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but we don't have that historical data.

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When is the right time to start that?

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Well, probably yesterday.

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So just, we were doing a bit
of a cost-benefit analysis

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within our groups.

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And we started conversing with Alyssa.

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So I'll have Alyssa introduce
herself in a minute,

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Alyssa Rosemartin.

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She's with the National
Phenological Network

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and is a little bit more in the know

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about phenology monitoring, a little bit.

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And we roped her in

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and started asking her
some of these questions.

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And we decided that
having a working session

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at the FEMC conference might
be a fruitful endeavor.

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And we're hoping to get perspectives

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from everybody in the room
and everybody virtually

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about what's going on in their state.

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Then what would be a state-like response,

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what would be a regional response.

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And that's really the genesis of it.

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So I'm gonna hand it over to Alyssa,

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introduce yourself and give an intro.

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Awesome, thanks so much, Alana.

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I'm glad to be co-facilitating
hybrid with you.

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There's still a little
bit of background noise.

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I don't know if in the room,
just while you were talking,

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so I don't know if
there's, it's hard to tell.

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If there's a door open or something,

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maybe we can, it sounds
a little better now.

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I'm not sure if that's 'cause I'm talking.

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But yeah, so I'm just
really excited to be here

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and connect with all of
you online and in the room.

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Our plan, Alana and I devised this plan

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with the goal in mind
to share lessons learned

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across different phenology
monitoring efforts

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happening in the region

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and develop some groundwork
for FEMC partners

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to make informed decisions
about the return on investment,

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right, the relative priority
of any phenology monitoring

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or perhaps of regionally-coordinated
phenology monitoring

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with the focus on forests.

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So we were thinking to
do brief introductions.

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I wonder if maybe we'll save
that for the breakout piece,

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introduce ourselves as we're
discussing in the breakouts.

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I was just gonna briefly

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go over some background on phenology,

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what we do at the network, and
Alana's collected great info

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on what's happening at the state level.

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And I have some information
on local phenology efforts

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happening in the region as well.

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And then we'll focus our
time talking with each other,

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breakout discussions on
what the potential is,

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on the challenges, and
where we can go from here.

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The output, we'll create some,

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there's obviously the
conference proceedings

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with the page on this working group

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that we'll go in there

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and then we'll also share the
results of our discussion,

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the potential and the challenges,

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in some nice format for you all.

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So I've been hearing,

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I've only been able to catch
part of the conference today,

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but I feel like phenology
has come up a lot.

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It's probably not a hard sell.

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We know it's important
to all kinds of ecosystem

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and biogeophysical processes,

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carbon cycling, water cycling.

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And we see it's both a driver

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and a response to climate change,

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or in response to climate change,

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and there's feedback to climate change.

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It's also really practically relevant

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in terms of invasive species control,

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I already mentioned the carbon cycle,

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human health in terms of allergies,

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and cultural events like festivals

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or wildflower viewing

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or fall leaf foliage viewing.

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Maybe this is a great summary

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of what's going on at the state level.

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If Alana, do you wanna
jump in on this part?

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[Alana] Sure, so I sent out
a little bit of a survey

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that was primarily sent to the
state coordinators of FEMC,

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but I asked them to share it
with any of their partners

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that they thought could
have relevant perspectives.

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So the whole point was really just

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to maybe try to get a summary

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of what is currently happening regionally

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in terms of forest phenology efforts.

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So Vermont, Josh Halman

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sort of presented earlier this morning

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on some of their phenology efforts.

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But to echo what he had said this morning,

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and this is partnered with FEMC,

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they monitor bud break of sugar maple

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at one site in Vermont.

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They monitor fall color and leaf drops

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at another site at three
different elevations.

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And they also more recently have started

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in basic plant species phenology projects.

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They're looking at development

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and timing of different
invasive plant species.

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Connecticut, I had a lot of
contributions from Connecticut.

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Their answers were definitely,

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I mean, great to hear that
there were many efforts,

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but kind of widespread.

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They are piloting an invasive
understory mapping tool,

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which is using time series,
I think, Landsat imagery.

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There's also a program
since I think the 1960s

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of Persian lilac springtime development.

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They're looking at different
phenophases of Persian lilac.

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And also, some people are,

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there's a first bloom
monitoring study sort of

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that was really happening
in Norfolk, Connecticut

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between the '40s and the '70s.

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There was a long break,
a couple of decades,

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and then that's recently been revisited

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from 2012 to 2020, I think.

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So there's opportunity to compare

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that first bloom data between
those two time periods.

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In Rhode Island, we have
the plant phenology project,

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which is a citizen science project

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where bud break, leaf color, leaf drop,

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and flowering and fruiting
are data that are collected.

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And Massachusetts has
their Landscape Message,

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which is a message that is
put out multiple times a year

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conveying plant and pest development.

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And this really kinda
garners site-specific records

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of different plant and pest
development milestones,

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but it's on their Landscape
Message database or archive,

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so you're able to look back
and see and maybe take notes

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on some of these site-specific changes

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that are happening specific to each site.

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But bottom line, there's
a lot of activities

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that are happening, but
there's really not much overlap

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in the objectives and methodologies

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that are happening regionwide.

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That's all I have.

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Thank you.

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That's a really great overview.

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So yeah, so I work for the USA
National Phenology Network.

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I decided to introduce myself too much.

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I live in Coastal Massachusetts,

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and I've worked for over a
decade at the Phenology Network,

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which is federally funded,
based at University of Arizona.

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We are focused on collecting, storing,

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and sharing phenology data and information

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with the goals to advance science,

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inform decisions, communicate, connect,

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and also grow an equitable
and inclusive network.

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And so we do this by a citizen

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and professional science
program across the country,

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where people are collecting
data using a standard format

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on over 1600 species
of plants and animals.

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We have a lot of different tools

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for accessing and visualizing the data.

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This one is showing one
of our activity curves

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where you can compare milkweed,

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the number of yes records for milkweed

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and the number of yes records
for monarch butterflies.

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And I mean, this whole thing works

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through partnership, right?

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I feel a resonance with FEMC

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because we're a small staff
with so many partners out there

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who are doing the work on the ground.

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So there's a lot of Park Service,
Fish and Wildlife Service,

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NEON sites, academic institutions,

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and hundreds of nonprofit organizations

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that are collecting phenology data

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and bringing people together

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around specific questions of interest.

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So this is a screen cap

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of all of the local phenology projects

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happening in New England.

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And I'll just,

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there's a number of
nonprofits near me in Boston,

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Earthwise Aware.

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What other one was I gonna mention?

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There's the Linda Loring out on Nantucket,

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also has a really great program.

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So there's so many to pick,

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and I don't wanna take
up all the time talking.

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So I'll just quickly mention,
up at Acadia National Park,

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they're using phenology monitoring

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to look for vulnerable species

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to plan when they're
gonna go out and monitor

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to better understand visitor season

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and to engage people in
the science of phenology,

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science of climate change.

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Appalachian Mountain Club, I know Georgia,

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I don't know if she's in the
room, I know she's there.

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Georgia Murray has been
leading this amazing program

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for many years, looking
primarily at flowers,

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wildflowers along the Appalachian Trail

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and in the White Mountains
using our program.

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The NEON site, also up in
the Whites at Bartlett,

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which is a really cool tool
on the NEON website now

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where you can see the green squares here

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are their phenology plots.

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You can see the location of the NEON,

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National Ecological
Observatory Network tower.

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So on the right is the
PhenoCam from the tower,

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and you can kind of look at,

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so NEON's data is automatically
ingested into NPN's database

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and serves through our tools.

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So I was able to make an
activity curve for Bartlett,

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showing the proportion of yes
records for red maple leaves

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and look at the similarities, differences

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from the PhenoCam greenness
curve from the PhenoCam.

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So it's cool when there's
co-located multiple ways

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of looking at phenology in the same spot.

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And then I saw Kerissa is here.

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She coordinates The New
York Phenology Project,

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which has so many sites
across the State of New York

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and coordinates on questions
of interest, I think,

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around pollinators and climate impacts.

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So yeah, I think it
sort of already came up

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through what Alana was describing.

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There's so many species,

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and there's so many things
to be interested in,

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and so we're always
trying to strike a balance

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between driving data collection
towards certain species

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so that we have enough coverage
to be able to say something

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about how climate change
is impacting red maples.

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But there's also, we're
always trading that off

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with, well, what do people
actually care about,

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and what changes are they
seeing on the ground?

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So one way that we do this is
through this set of campaigns.

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On the left are the
three big tree campaigns,

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the Green Wave, which is
maples, oaks, and poplars,

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and Quercus Quest, which is focused on,

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I think, 11 species of oaks,

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and then The Redbud Project,

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which is focused on flowering in redbud.

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And then on the right,

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it's more the insect and interactions,

256
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,610
the Nectar Connectors,
Pesky Plant Trackers,

257
00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:35,040
which Elizabeth Spinney is
here, who works on that project,

258
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,623
and Pest Patrol, which is also looking,

259
00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:42,873
having folks go out and look
for those invasive insects.

260
00:11:44,910 --> 00:11:47,610
Quick pitch for standardized
data across a whole region

261
00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:49,680
enables these bigger kinds of studies

262
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,800
that enable us to look
back to past changes.

263
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,860
So the farthest left graph

264
00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:58,170
shows earlier flowering in black cherry,

265
00:11:58,170 --> 00:11:59,460
advancing one day per decade,

266
00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:01,563
or one day per year since 1870.

267
00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:04,320
Project future changes,

268
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,290
this is modeled future
changes for red maple,

269
00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:11,190
depending on the scenario,
maybe a week to a month earlier.

270
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:14,850
And then the far right one
looks at species interactions.

271
00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:19,020
So you can see understory for phenology

272
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:22,350
being more sensitive to
temperature than tree phenology

273
00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:27,350
in terms of measured, in terms
of days per degree Celsius.

274
00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:28,833
So,

275
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:34,890
just wanted to also
throw out a quick pitch.

276
00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:36,480
This is basically unrelated,

277
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,880
but since we have the
audience in the room,

278
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,850
just a quick pitch also
for our Pheno Forecast.

279
00:12:41,850 --> 00:12:44,070
So we take growing degree day models

280
00:12:44,070 --> 00:12:46,110
and make these gridded maps available

281
00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:49,320
that allow you to estimate

282
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,300
when you might expect to see

283
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,370
for emerald ash borer adults.

284
00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:56,700
This can help shape monitoring
programs or engaging people.

285
00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:58,410
And you can also sign up
for these notifications,

286
00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:01,290
where if it's two weeks away,
you'll get an email that says,

287
00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:02,940
hey, time to start looking now.

288
00:13:02,940 --> 00:13:05,910
So we think this might have a
lot of potential for engaging,

289
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:08,040
if there's more private
landowners engaging

290
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,660
in monitoring for EAB, for
example, this could be relevant.

291
00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:17,660
So I think, there's
Alana in my contact info.

292
00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:21,600
I think from here, Alana
can set me straight,

293
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,770
but I think we'll just go into a breakout

294
00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:28,830
to talk about what everyone
thinks the potential is

295
00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:32,400
for phenology monitoring,
coordinated phenology monitoring

296
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,050
in the region.

297
00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:35,820
Yeah, I think, so we'll have 20 minutes.

298
00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:37,110
I was hoping, in the room,

299
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:39,270
you could either break up two

300
00:13:39,270 --> 00:13:41,220
or three or four groups to discuss this.

301
00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:42,483
I will mute.

302
00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:45,360
I'll make sure that we're
not gonna distract each other

303
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:46,440
virtually and in person.

304
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,463
And I also want to apologize
to the virtual people

305
00:13:48,463 --> 00:13:49,296
'cause I knew I was,

306
00:13:49,296 --> 00:13:51,533
I just realized I was
outside of the camera

307
00:13:51,533 --> 00:13:53,883
for the first part of
what I was just saying.

308
00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:56,340
But yeah, so Alyssa, if you're ready,

309
00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:59,223
I will do my thing on here.

310
00:14:02,070 --> 00:14:02,903
Super.

311
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,320
Yeah, so online, I think,

312
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,070
feel free to come off
of mute and on camera.

313
00:14:17,070 --> 00:14:19,380
And that way, we can,

314
00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:22,533
Georgia's here virtually,
yay, and Kerissa.

315
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:30,350
So yeah, I'd love for us to,
and I can take some notes,

316
00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:33,030
but, oh, I don't think
we put the prompt up,

317
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:35,670
but yeah, basically, we're interested,

318
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:37,643
let me, I can put the prompt in the chat.

319
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:42,690
We're interested in what everyone thinks

320
00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:47,690
the potential is for phenology monitoring

321
00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:53,943
to help further your own
objectives or priorities.

322
00:14:57,210 --> 00:14:58,230
I can break the ice

323
00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:00,633
and just be the one
that blathers on first.

324
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,150
So, hi, all.

325
00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:04,230
My name's Elizabeth Spinney.

326
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:05,670
I use she/her pronouns.

327
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:10,020
And I am a local phenology
leader through NPN

328
00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:14,010
and just this year started our
own local phenology project

329
00:15:14,010 --> 00:15:17,580
called the Vermont Invasive
Plant Phenology Project,

330
00:15:17,580 --> 00:15:19,443
which was mentioned in Alana's.

331
00:15:20,970 --> 00:15:25,970
And we are monitoring Asiatic bittersweet,

332
00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:31,953
Morrow's honeysuckle, and
common or European buckthorn,

333
00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:36,390
which are three invasive understory plants

334
00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:40,173
that we struggle with here in
the Northeast and in Vermont.

335
00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:44,220
And we are basically trying to,

336
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,170
through this project,
create a baseline dataset

337
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,760
'cause there's currently
an absence of strong,

338
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,393
widely available phenology
data for these species,

339
00:15:55,650 --> 00:15:58,710
both to be able to track
phenological shifts

340
00:15:58,710 --> 00:16:01,590
that are predicted to
occur with climate change,

341
00:16:01,590 --> 00:16:04,950
but also to be able to
assist land managers

342
00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:08,010
in timing their management activities,

343
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:10,260
because if someone asks us
when something's flowering

344
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:13,653
or fruiting, we honestly
can't scientifically say when.

345
00:16:15,297 --> 00:16:18,333
So we're very, very into phenology.

346
00:16:21,150 --> 00:16:22,260
Yeah, I could speak next

347
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:25,203
to also being a group very into phenology.

348
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,370
Certainly, we've been doing phenology

349
00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:32,100
in the White Mountains since 2004

350
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:36,090
and started working with the
National Phenology Network

351
00:16:36,090 --> 00:16:39,480
as they became who they are today

352
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,860
and have appreciated
the consistency and the,

353
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:46,710
I often call them the protocol
police, but in a nice way

354
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:50,580
because I think that allows us to compare

355
00:16:50,580 --> 00:16:52,320
when we wanna ask those questions.

356
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,530
But in particular, AMC
is really looking at it

357
00:16:55,530 --> 00:16:56,970
through the lens of climate change.

358
00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:58,950
And so what we wanted to understand

359
00:16:58,950 --> 00:17:01,770
was how climate change was unfolding

360
00:17:01,770 --> 00:17:04,653
specifically in the mountains,
where there's less data.

361
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,820
So we've done that through
partnerships and citizen science

362
00:17:11,820 --> 00:17:16,260
and through having facilities

363
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:17,430
in the back country.

364
00:17:17,430 --> 00:17:19,140
We're lucky enough to have that,

365
00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:21,480
and that infrastructure has also, I think,

366
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,373
allowed us to do NPN through time.

367
00:17:28,111 --> 00:17:29,940
And we can talk about that,
some of the challenges

368
00:17:29,940 --> 00:17:33,660
around maintaining plots

369
00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:37,090
and certainly the frequency
of getting to plots

370
00:17:38,340 --> 00:17:40,860
that is needed, especially in springtime,

371
00:17:40,860 --> 00:17:43,050
when you're really focused
on springtime phenology.

372
00:17:43,050 --> 00:17:46,800
But we've been lucky enough
to have the support staff

373
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,380
to do that and the volunteers as well.

374
00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:53,670
So we continue to collect that data.

375
00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:57,600
Jordan presented today on
some of the deeper dives

376
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,940
that we just started doing because, again,

377
00:17:59,940 --> 00:18:02,370
it's sort of long-term monitoring

378
00:18:02,370 --> 00:18:04,410
in order really to answer the questions

379
00:18:04,410 --> 00:18:08,160
around climate change, we
need many years of data.

380
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,040
And so we finally feel
like we're at the point now

381
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,360
to start to look at which plants

382
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,280
are most responsive to climate change,

383
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,290
and so that's where we're headed

384
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:24,290
and really have benefited by the support

385
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,100
of the infrastructure of NPN.

386
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:29,610
So they've got the database,

387
00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:33,630
the ability to input
data and get data out.

388
00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:37,173
So that's been really beneficial
to us as an organization.

389
00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:40,710
I can go.

390
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:41,970
My name's Kerissa.

391
00:18:41,970 --> 00:18:46,260
I also started working
with NPN pretty early on.

392
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:49,500
We worked together to evaluate protocols

393
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:51,930
and started some of the early

394
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:54,303
phenology trail projects together.

395
00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:58,980
And I would say one of the things

396
00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:03,180
that has been really amazing

397
00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:06,480
about working with NPN and
having this national platform

398
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,230
is the ability to
catalyze regional networks

399
00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:11,640
and get organizations

400
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,613
and institutions really
connected to one another.

401
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,220
When I left Oregon to come to New York

402
00:19:20,220 --> 00:19:22,950
after kind of testing out
some of these methodologies

403
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:26,580
and realizing how much
the implementing sites

404
00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:31,560
could activate really unusual
and interesting programs

405
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,530
that I hadn't even intended to happen,

406
00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:36,720
but just happened, whether they were

407
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,173
high school senior projects
at a local park or whatever.

408
00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:45,510
So I came to New York with
this idea and intention

409
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:47,280
to activate a regional network

410
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,733
and did it with very, very little funding,

411
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:55,510
pretty much just cobbled
together my own funding

412
00:19:56,550 --> 00:20:00,030
and then was able to reach out

413
00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:04,260
to a network of institutions with a pilot.

414
00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:05,970
And we did have the advantage

415
00:20:05,970 --> 00:20:07,410
of the New York Botanical Garden

416
00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:11,070
already having a phenology
monitoring program there.

417
00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:15,360
So there was at least some familiarity

418
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,250
with one of the institutions,

419
00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:19,953
but none of the other
institutions had a program.

420
00:20:20,970 --> 00:20:23,430
And so we were able to,

421
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:26,910
through this kind of forming
this regional alliance,

422
00:20:26,910 --> 00:20:30,150
in some ways, on the back of this project

423
00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:34,000
that we didn't have to come
up with massive funding to do

424
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:38,280
and could really get a
pilot going very fast

425
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,873
and then experiment with this
kind of network replication.

426
00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:48,480
What does it take to
have these kind of nodes

427
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,440
then begin to branch out on their own?

428
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,773
And it took a couple
of years only, really.

429
00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:59,700
At the very beginning, I had to be the one

430
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:01,080
to kind of set up the site

431
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,530
and get the training programs
going and all of that.

432
00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:08,160
But I felt like I really wouldn't know

433
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,430
that the program was
successful until I found out

434
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:13,170
that there were programs getting going

435
00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:15,123
that hadn't called me.

436
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:20,880
And so that indeed did happen,
and programs just started,

437
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,523
we put up resources, made a website,

438
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:26,670
and created species profiles

439
00:21:26,670 --> 00:21:29,640
and how-to guides and
all of that, obviously,

440
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,130
put a lot of what NPN already
has up on that website

441
00:21:35,044 --> 00:21:37,110
and those kind of self-starting resources.

442
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:40,800
Between that and then me and
some of the other programs

443
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,180
that have been going for a while

444
00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:47,180
could host consulting calls
and things to get people going.

445
00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:50,940
Lots of programs just were
able to get started, again,

446
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:54,100
with not this massive amount of spending

447
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:58,440
or background funding.

448
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,030
And it allowed organizations

449
00:22:00,030 --> 00:22:03,720
to really jump into the citizen science

450
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,310
or community science world

451
00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,310
without having to make any
kind of major investment.

452
00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:15,600
And I feel like the effects
of that are so far beyond

453
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,890
than just the phenology program itself,

454
00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:24,150
just getting that ability
to have coordinators

455
00:22:24,150 --> 00:22:26,310
or whatever that run the
citizen science programs,

456
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:27,630
then allow them to expand.

457
00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:30,540
So I feel like these
phenology monitoring programs

458
00:22:30,540 --> 00:22:33,900
have a lot of potential
for kind of a diffusion

459
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,993
of innovation around the program.

460
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:41,730
And then other interesting
things could happen.

461
00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:44,940
So for example, once
this network was going,

462
00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:48,090
an example is getting a call from folks

463
00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:51,780
who wanted to do testing for
the hemlock woolly adelgid,

464
00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:56,610
the biocontrol, but didn't,
New York State is so huge,

465
00:22:56,610 --> 00:22:58,380
how do you create that calendar

466
00:22:58,380 --> 00:23:02,460
to release the biocontrol for the adelgid

467
00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:05,250
if you don't know exactly when the adelgid

468
00:23:05,250 --> 00:23:07,410
is doing its thing in
various parts of the state?

469
00:23:07,410 --> 00:23:11,730
So Cornell and New York State partnership

470
00:23:11,730 --> 00:23:13,830
contacted New York Phenology Project,

471
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:17,910
and we were able to then
activate this biocontrol program

472
00:23:17,910 --> 00:23:20,340
or help them with the calendar portion

473
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:22,413
of their biocontrol program.

474
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,170
And I think it would've
been challenging for them

475
00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:30,170
if there wasn't already this
kind of network and taxa.

476
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:31,500
So that's an example of,

477
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:35,269
I feel like, with very little funding,

478
00:23:35,269 --> 00:23:37,560
these great impacts can actually happen.

479
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,650
But obviously, it's all
because the national network

480
00:23:40,650 --> 00:23:44,970
has this platform and has
these amazing people available

481
00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:49,330
as resources to allow somebody like myself

482
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,940
to kind of catalyze a network activity

483
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:58,260
without a ton of background funding.

484
00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:01,170
So I have other thoughts on further ideas

485
00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:03,060
for coordinated efforts and so forth,

486
00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:06,060
but I've talked too much
already, so I'm gonna pass it on.

487
00:24:06,060 --> 00:24:10,923
And if we feel like coming
back to ideas, you can ask.

488
00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:14,880
Awesome, awesome.

489
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,703
Yeah, don't undersell yourself.

490
00:24:16,703 --> 00:24:18,750
I mean, I didn't organize the session,

491
00:24:18,750 --> 00:24:20,520
just so that people would
say nice things about NPN,

492
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,290
but all of you out there
doing the work are,

493
00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:27,570
I feel like, doing the harder part,

494
00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:29,130
really, the ground game

495
00:24:29,130 --> 00:24:31,560
and sustaining monitoring over time

496
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,990
and holding people together.

497
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:36,870
I am really grateful.

498
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:41,850
Yeah, does anyone else, anyone
who hasn't jumped in yet,

499
00:24:41,850 --> 00:24:44,340
maybe someone who's thinking about it,

500
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:46,500
what do you, but not doing anything yet,

501
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:48,963
what do you see as the
potential benefit for you?

502
00:24:51,210 --> 00:24:52,770
All right, I'll jump in briefly.

503
00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:53,603
So I'm Kyler.

504
00:24:53,603 --> 00:24:56,520
I've worked with Georgia and Jordan

505
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,900
within Appalachian Mountain Club

506
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:00,930
to support their phenology research.

507
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:02,790
And really, what my role has been

508
00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:05,460
has been going between
the research department

509
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:07,230
and the guests that we often use

510
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:10,350
to collect community science-based data

511
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:13,710
and have done a lot of
communications with the visitors

512
00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:15,210
and people that are off
hiking in the mountains

513
00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:17,640
about phenology research
and climate change.

514
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,180
So to me, the part that's most exciting

515
00:25:21,180 --> 00:25:26,180
is the ability to make abstract
concepts like climate change

516
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,090
accessible and very tangible
in a pretty simple way

517
00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:32,223
with the iNaturalist app, for example.

518
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:35,723
Cool.

519
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,850
Alyssa, did you see the chat?

520
00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:42,870
Just Amanda was saying, yep.

521
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:45,633
Yeah, hey, Amanda, thanks for that note.

522
00:25:47,220 --> 00:25:50,703
Ceding her ideas, or ceding
her time to Kerissa's ideas.

523
00:25:52,620 --> 00:25:53,610
Yeah, we had planned,

524
00:25:53,610 --> 00:25:55,440
I don't think we did a
great job of framing this,

525
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,010
but we are planning to go
'til 3:40 with this session,

526
00:25:59,010 --> 00:26:02,040
so we've got seven more
minutes to talk about,

527
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,527
maybe this is the time to just,

528
00:26:03,527 --> 00:26:05,610
'cause we're gonna talk
about challenges next,

529
00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:09,420
but leave that all
aside, what's the dream?

530
00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:11,040
What do you see as the potential,

531
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,130
with thinking of all the
people here and in the room,

532
00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:15,183
where could we go?

533
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,120
I guess I can jump in just real quick.

534
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,243
So just sort of, I very much wear,

535
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,710
I work in forest health, but
I very much have the lenses

536
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:33,153
of working with invasive species.

537
00:26:33,994 --> 00:26:37,680
And so that's sort of how I see situations

538
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,883
and approach them.

539
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:44,043
And I could see this being,

540
00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:47,643
so particularly plants,

541
00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:51,420
they're gonna grow where they grow.

542
00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:54,030
They don't really care
about political boundaries

543
00:26:54,030 --> 00:26:55,920
that we've imposed on the landscape.

544
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,150
And so being able

545
00:26:57,150 --> 00:27:02,130
to make conservation

546
00:27:02,130 --> 00:27:04,650
or management decisions

547
00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:07,590
based on data that's
collected across the landscape

548
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:11,490
versus political boundaries
would be really huge.

549
00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:13,810
And I could see phenology

550
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:18,333
aiding in that trend of thinking.

551
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:23,160
Yeah.

552
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,560
Yeah, to build on that,

553
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,650
AMC is a conservation organization

554
00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:31,710
and have in mind

555
00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:34,830
the 30 by '30

556
00:27:34,830 --> 00:27:39,450
land conservation target

557
00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:41,670
and 50 by '50, by 2050.

558
00:27:41,670 --> 00:27:45,903
So I think

559
00:27:45,903 --> 00:27:50,430
that what you're saying
is really important

560
00:27:50,430 --> 00:27:55,320
as we consider where to
target land conservation

561
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,280
by bringing in these regional datasets.

562
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,500
That could be really helpful

563
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,280
because then as we make decisions

564
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,850
around where those lands
should be prioritized,

565
00:28:08,850 --> 00:28:11,700
we could be making that based on science

566
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:15,480
versus individual state politics.

567
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,640
So I certainly agree with that.

568
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,740
And I guess the other thing

569
00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:21,440
about bringing the region together

570
00:28:22,890 --> 00:28:24,450
that might help facilitate that

571
00:28:24,450 --> 00:28:28,980
is we had the Northeast Phenology Network

572
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:29,880
at one point.

573
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,800
We were trying to stay sort of collective

574
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,770
within the NPN subgroup.

575
00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:41,580
And I think thinking about
that kind of meeting again,

576
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:45,030
where even if we're not a group,

577
00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:47,400
but certainly having a meeting

578
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,450
where we do invite state-level,

579
00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:54,210
federal-level land managers

580
00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:58,620
and then share our collective experiences

581
00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:02,280
around the phenology monitoring,

582
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,730
I think that that's something
we could do as a group

583
00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:07,560
that would be really helpful.

584
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,990
It's sharing what we're learning

585
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:13,110
and then sharing that with some

586
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:17,370
of the land managers and conservationists

587
00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:21,183
that might want to hear
what we're doing, so.

588
00:29:22,350 --> 00:29:23,977
It feels like time we had that,

589
00:29:23,977 --> 00:29:27,450
there was a meeting in 2016,
I think, up at the Whites,

590
00:29:27,450 --> 00:29:29,450
and it just feels like it would be great

591
00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:34,860
for a team to do that,

592
00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:37,770
or maybe we make it part
of FEMC or something,

593
00:29:37,770 --> 00:29:39,717
but, or I don't know,

594
00:29:39,717 --> 00:29:42,750
but definitely feels like
there's a lot of conversation

595
00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:43,800
that wants to happen.

596
00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:48,060
Yeah, Alyssa, that was exactly, Georgia,

597
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:50,880
one of the things I wanted to mention,

598
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,700
but I was wondering, Alyssa, if there is,

599
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:57,810
is that a possibility in the near future?

600
00:29:57,810 --> 00:30:00,870
Is that something that's
been on NPN's mind?

601
00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:03,240
Do you see that as a possibility

602
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,520
that NPN can support at least

603
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,653
with some staff time or something?

604
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:10,170
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

605
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:12,900
I think it's funny because it's all,

606
00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:15,210
I sent out a note to a bunch
of people for this thing,

607
00:30:15,210 --> 00:30:17,887
and other people who weren't
able to come were like,

608
00:30:17,887 --> 00:30:20,610
"Hey, are you guys gonna organize
another regional meeting?"

609
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:21,990
I guess it's probably time, yeah,

610
00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:23,850
I think between Ellen and my time,

611
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:26,640
but I would love it to be as
much as everyone else has time,

612
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,040
a group coordinated with you, Kerissa,

613
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,220
and Georgia, Elizabeth,

614
00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:35,160
anyone who wants to help us
pull that off would be great.

615
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,560
And I guess now that we know
our way better around virtual,

616
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:38,393
we could decide.

617
00:30:38,393 --> 00:30:39,960
Anyways, I don't wanna
get into those weeds,

618
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,650
but yeah, we're enthusiastic.

619
00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:46,023
New historical datasets come up.

620
00:30:47,239 --> 00:30:51,630
In New York here, we've
digitized recently,

621
00:30:51,630 --> 00:30:53,430
we just put out a publication

622
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:55,620
in "Journal of Ecology" this year,

623
00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:59,070
but we have a dataset from the early 1800s

624
00:30:59,070 --> 00:31:03,783
that showed up, dropped
out of the sky pretty much,

625
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:07,290
for the entire state.

626
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:12,290
And so it's not just
a super local dataset.

627
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,690
So something that's relevant
to all of New York State

628
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:19,080
and all the growing zones
is certainly pretty relevant

629
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,810
to the other areas in New England

630
00:31:21,810 --> 00:31:25,620
and probably has most of the
same species and so forth.

631
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:29,050
So I'm sure there's

632
00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:32,730
other types of datasets that have come up,

633
00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:35,970
and the ability to kinda collaborate

634
00:31:35,970 --> 00:31:39,243
and share those types of
things would be really great.

635
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:45,450
I'm curious as to what, so
is it flowering species?

636
00:31:45,450 --> 00:31:48,150
It's actually plants and animals,

637
00:31:48,150 --> 00:31:51,270
but the original dataset

638
00:31:51,270 --> 00:31:54,123
has 900 species from the past.

639
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:59,430
But when we whittled
down to see what we had

640
00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:02,280
to compare with

641
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,460
what there was an abundance of in NPN,

642
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:07,530
we did just focus on
plants for this study,

643
00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:12,150
and we came down to 36 that
met more stringent requirements

644
00:32:12,150 --> 00:32:15,180
of how many observations,
across how many growing zones,

645
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:16,890
across how many years, right,

646
00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:18,663
'cause there's those multi-levels.

647
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,690
But the original historic dataset

648
00:32:21,690 --> 00:32:24,480
has a lot more than
what we just published.

649
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,480
So we're certainly looking
at further collaborations

650
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:34,050
on other taxa and other, and actually,

651
00:32:34,050 --> 00:32:37,320
it was up to 2017 when I did the analysis.

652
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,960
It took forever to publish
it for various reasons,

653
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,530
but there's a lot more
in the database now,

654
00:32:43,530 --> 00:32:44,700
in the modern database.

655
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:49,700
So there's definitely a lot
there that could be played with.

656
00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:53,580
I'm certainly wanting more collaboration

657
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:57,063
with other regional phenology friends.

658
00:33:00,930 --> 00:33:01,890
Yay.

659
00:33:01,890 --> 00:33:02,723
Yeah.

660
00:33:04,350 --> 00:33:06,060
I think we're pretty much ready

661
00:33:06,060 --> 00:33:07,800
to go back to the main room.

662
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,213
I just texted Alana.

663
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:12,900
I don't know that I can bring us back.

664
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:14,610
I think they have to bring us back,

665
00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:16,953
so we can keep talking 'til they do.

666
00:33:22,590 --> 00:33:25,110
Yeah, so in the report, so
we're gonna say what the,

667
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:27,510
I think that, looking at my notes,

668
00:33:27,510 --> 00:33:30,040
I think we can say there's

669
00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:34,740
potential to make decisions based on data,

670
00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:37,410
like Elizabeth was saying
and Georgia was building,

671
00:33:37,410 --> 00:33:41,250
across state boundaries,
make those decisions

672
00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:43,923
more based on landscape
or ecological scales,

673
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:47,730
more opportunity with legacy datasets

674
00:33:47,730 --> 00:33:49,920
and more collaboration

675
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,030
to either collect parallel,

676
00:33:54,030 --> 00:33:56,760
present-day data and get
analyzed and interpret

677
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360
and understand what's
happening with those datasets.

678
00:34:02,490 --> 00:34:05,160
I get, what else did we throw out there

679
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,723
in terms of potential?

680
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,750
Oh, the people, just how powerful it is

681
00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:15,973
to create networks and then, here we go.

682
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:23,423
Hi, virtual friends, can you hear us?

683
00:34:23,423 --> 00:34:25,143
We can, we can, we're back.

684
00:34:26,220 --> 00:34:27,570
This good timing?

685
00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:30,182
Yeah, it's perfect, it's great.

686
00:34:30,182 --> 00:34:31,015
Great.

687
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,960
So Alyssa, is this gonna
be pulled up on the screen,

688
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:41,687
-or was this-
-Yeah, I was thinking,

689
00:34:42,870 --> 00:34:45,840
I will record what everyone says.

690
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,653
So maybe actually Kerissa or
Georgia, if you wouldn't mind.

691
00:34:51,810 --> 00:34:53,640
Section, and I'll just
take notes on everything

692
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,233
on this Google doc.

693
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:00,180
Okay, I can go.

694
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:03,750
I think what we all discussed was,

695
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:05,280
oh, there's a lot of feedback,

696
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,980
which is making it a
little hard for me to hear.

697
00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:10,173
Oh, wait, now maybe it's better, okay.

698
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,710
All right, I think that's fine.

699
00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:19,350
Was that there is opportunity in,

700
00:35:19,350 --> 00:35:23,610
if there's more collaboration,

701
00:35:23,610 --> 00:35:26,370
that we can really get at issues

702
00:35:26,370 --> 00:35:31,370
that obviously don't follow
any political boundaries.

703
00:35:31,470 --> 00:35:34,290
The landscapes across the
Northeast are fairly similar.

704
00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:36,060
We have a lot of similar issues

705
00:35:36,060 --> 00:35:40,713
in terms of invasive
species and pest management,

706
00:35:43,170 --> 00:35:44,280
similar enough species

707
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,700
where we can look at
phenological sensitivity,

708
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:51,090
synchronization, and mismatch,

709
00:35:51,090 --> 00:35:53,050
and that obviously these issues

710
00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:57,360
don't have boundaries.

711
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,570
And right now, our various efforts are,

712
00:36:00,570 --> 00:36:02,220
seem to be at the state level,

713
00:36:02,220 --> 00:36:05,310
and that there's just
opportunity to be able

714
00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:10,026
to have a more bioregional focus

715
00:36:10,026 --> 00:36:13,300
and really help each
other with best practices

716
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,640
and just find out what's
top of everyone's mind

717
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:18,750
in terms of the issues

718
00:36:18,750 --> 00:36:21,700
that we feel like phenology monitoring

719
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:24,990
can help ameliorate.

720
00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:28,290
And then also being able to
share about legacy datasets,

721
00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:29,940
which is something that can really

722
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:32,550
get at the climate change issues.

723
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:36,930
And again, just because a dataset
is from a particular state

724
00:36:36,930 --> 00:36:40,530
doesn't mean it's not
relevant to other locations

725
00:36:40,530 --> 00:36:43,830
that are in the same latitude
or growing zone and so forth.

726
00:36:43,830 --> 00:36:47,910
So that there's just value in being able

727
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:51,123
to connect across state boundaries,

728
00:36:51,978 --> 00:36:53,820
for all of these reasons and more,

729
00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:57,660
also, just from the sense
of how powerful it is

730
00:36:57,660 --> 00:37:01,740
to create new networks
and share resources.

731
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:02,573
Yeah.

732
00:37:08,940 --> 00:37:12,000
Feel free to add, if I missed something.

733
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,490
[Georgia] Well, I think we did mention

734
00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:18,360
that it's time to have
another regional meeting

735
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,850
where we can do all those things

736
00:37:20,850 --> 00:37:23,130
that you mentioned together,

737
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:26,910
but also with land managers,

738
00:37:26,910 --> 00:37:28,590
other conservation groups,

739
00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:32,190
to really share

740
00:37:32,190 --> 00:37:34,680
and also spread the message

741
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,213
of how this data can be
utilized in that application.

742
00:37:46,860 --> 00:37:50,610
I can speak for, I don't
wanna get ahead of ourselves,

743
00:37:50,610 --> 00:37:53,310
but I find that reassuring to hear

744
00:37:53,310 --> 00:37:55,380
because we talked on
this side of the room,

745
00:37:55,380 --> 00:37:59,583
we found it a little bit
amorphous to determine,

746
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,170
how do you monitor

747
00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:07,410
with a rigorous protocol,

748
00:38:07,410 --> 00:38:09,840
but also standardize amongst a region?

749
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,690
But hearing what you have
to say and maybe bringing in

750
00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:16,170
and having a meeting with this
objective would help that.

751
00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:20,520
But we sort of struggled

752
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,320
to talk about what states could be doing,

753
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,580
because we couldn't get past

754
00:38:23,580 --> 00:38:26,160
that roadblock of the challenges,

755
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,080
which I know we'll talk about later,

756
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,393
of how would we even implement that?

757
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,903
Maybe we just need a
little bit more optimism.

758
00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:38,610
One thing that we, I think,
were able to determine

759
00:38:38,610 --> 00:38:41,730
was that, certainly, it would benefit

760
00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:45,720
to really know completely or
maybe more comprehensively

761
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,130
what is happening in the region.

762
00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:49,170
So we gave a quick overview.

763
00:38:49,170 --> 00:38:50,160
Alyssa knows so much.

764
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,480
We shared a lot of the activities,

765
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,180
and the survey that I put out yielded some

766
00:38:54,180 --> 00:38:55,500
that I wasn't even aware about,

767
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:58,500
but we did some quick
googling amongst our group

768
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,740
and found that there were other
phenology monitoring efforts

769
00:39:01,740 --> 00:39:03,360
that I wasn't aware about.

770
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,280
Some say they have detailed datasets,

771
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,800
well, is that data publicly available?

772
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:08,757
Can we have access to it?

773
00:39:08,757 --> 00:39:11,880
And just being a little bit
more communicative about it

774
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,430
would help us with our
own individual needs

775
00:39:14,430 --> 00:39:15,600
if we already have them

776
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,150
and then would also help us
see where there's overlap

777
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:21,063
and where we really could
have a regional program.

778
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,750
Anything else on this side of the room?

779
00:39:30,510 --> 00:39:34,533
[Attendee] I'm gonna apologize
for coming in so late.

780
00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:38,040
Can you just reiterate

781
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,840
what you're trying to solicit feedback on?

782
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,040
Sure, sure.

783
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,983
So we're wondering,

784
00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:48,570
can a regionwide phenology
monitoring program

785
00:39:48,570 --> 00:39:51,639
be implemented, and why
would we want to do that?

786
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:52,839
Is there an importance?

787
00:39:52,839 --> 00:39:54,030
Is there a significance?

788
00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:56,460
How would you get that up and running?

789
00:39:56,460 --> 00:39:59,610
This came about from Rhode Island.

790
00:39:59,610 --> 00:40:02,280
Some of our partners voiced interest

791
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,190
in monitoring tree phenology,

792
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:07,650
mostly for the ecological perspective

793
00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:09,810
of do we have changing phenology

794
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:13,650
that could relate to climate change?

795
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:15,618
But we sorta got caught in the weeds

796
00:40:15,618 --> 00:40:19,053
of if we're gonna spend
all this effort to do so,

797
00:40:20,070 --> 00:40:21,810
why are we going to?

798
00:40:21,810 --> 00:40:25,110
And the biggest value would
be if we had historical data

799
00:40:25,110 --> 00:40:27,180
to compare it to, but
we don't have that yet.

800
00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:28,887
So when is the time to start that?

801
00:40:28,887 --> 00:40:30,780
-And we're starting now.
-Now.

802
00:40:30,780 --> 00:40:32,973
Yeah, yesterday, right?

803
00:40:32,973 --> 00:40:34,980
[Attendee] Thank you, so
I didn't wanna jump in

804
00:40:34,980 --> 00:40:37,033
if that wasn't the topic you were on.

805
00:40:37,033 --> 00:40:40,140
I don't know how many people were in here

806
00:40:40,140 --> 00:40:43,980
for the last talk of the
previous session before,

807
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:45,600
the tools, the tools talk,

808
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,350
but I think that if we
could identify some way

809
00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:53,070
to either automate or leverage technology

810
00:40:53,070 --> 00:40:58,070
to be able to set up a regional
phenology monitoring system,

811
00:40:58,260 --> 00:41:02,760
I think that upfront effort
would be a big investment.

812
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,880
But I think that the
information we could get back

813
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,930
would be really useful.

814
00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:08,970
I mean, I think about how Vermont

815
00:41:08,970 --> 00:41:10,710
has used their phenology data,

816
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:12,750
but it really is from one location.

817
00:41:12,750 --> 00:41:15,150
It's like that super intensive one site.

818
00:41:15,150 --> 00:41:18,750
Can we build on that

819
00:41:18,750 --> 00:41:21,600
by setting up some sort
of automated system?

820
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,430
So I think PhenoCam,

821
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:27,390
there's already a phenology
monitoring network that way.

822
00:41:27,390 --> 00:41:32,130
Could we expand beyond
even tree phenology?

823
00:41:32,130 --> 00:41:35,040
Could we be using what
they were talking about

824
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,710
in that last talk was the microphones

825
00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:40,710
to assess avian phenology?

826
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:43,380
Could we be using it
for amphibian phenology?

827
00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:47,643
And so if these are
relatively cheap to deploy,

828
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,580
and the data structure is already set up

829
00:41:53,580 --> 00:41:55,260
to ingest that and analyze it,

830
00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:59,010
could that really give us
some critical information,

831
00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:01,320
not historical, but moving forward,

832
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,410
about how things are
changing and where, right?

833
00:42:04,410 --> 00:42:07,080
So is it changing more in Rhode Island?

834
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,640
Is Rhode Island changing a lot,

835
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,450
but Northern Maine not
really changing that much?

836
00:42:12,450 --> 00:42:14,880
I think it'd be really interesting.

837
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,620
Yeah, I appreciate that perspective

838
00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:18,543
is very relevant to the topic today.

839
00:42:21,390 --> 00:42:23,070
[Attendee] I'm curious if PhenoCam

840
00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:27,480
and the US Phenology Network
is stuck being tree-based,

841
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,220
or are they able to expand

842
00:42:29,220 --> 00:42:33,513
and be more of a hub for other ecosystems?

843
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:38,443
Yeah, so the PhenoCam is,

844
00:42:40,260 --> 00:42:42,660
the analysis is based on
greenness in the image.

845
00:42:42,660 --> 00:42:44,910
So it is primarily tree-based.

846
00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:45,934
I suppose there could be some,

847
00:42:45,934 --> 00:42:48,840
there may be some snow melt
stuff in there as well.

848
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,610
But yeah, our ground monitoring,

849
00:42:50,610 --> 00:42:52,110
where we have people go out and observe,

850
00:42:52,110 --> 00:42:55,770
is 1600 species of plants and animals.

851
00:42:55,770 --> 00:42:57,720
So it's pretty, I mean,

852
00:42:57,720 --> 00:42:59,430
there's still so many
more species out there,

853
00:42:59,430 --> 00:43:01,320
but it's fairly flexible.

854
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,920
And people certainly use it for,

855
00:43:04,225 --> 00:43:05,100
there's a project in California

856
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:06,240
where they looked at birds

857
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:07,950
and the fruit that they're feeding on,

858
00:43:07,950 --> 00:43:11,400
it can be about plant animal
interactions, for sure.

859
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,260
And then Georgia's project

860
00:43:13,260 --> 00:43:15,630
that she talked a little bit
more about on our virtual group

861
00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:18,600
is really focused on the montane region

862
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,300
that doesn't get as much data collected

863
00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:23,493
and especially on the wildflowers there.

864
00:43:28,830 --> 00:43:30,450
[Attendee] So it's about
creating something bigger

865
00:43:30,450 --> 00:43:34,950
or something beyond the Phenology Network.

866
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:38,820
[Georgia] Yeah, and I would
say that there's benefits

867
00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:40,380
to all those layers of data.

868
00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:43,500
And bringing them together,
I think, is important.

869
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,200
We've found that we can use iNaturalist

870
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,740
to capture flower phenology,

871
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:51,540
but we're not gonna be
able to use iNaturalist

872
00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:54,450
to capture ripe fruit timing,

873
00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:57,810
which we do with the NPN
network and the plots.

874
00:43:57,810 --> 00:44:02,810
So there's, I guess it
depends on your question

875
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,540
and what level of data you're looking for

876
00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:09,000
and whether you really
want a species level

877
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,380
or a particular difficult
phenophase to look at

878
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:16,320
that automated systems
really can't capture.

879
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,550
So I think there's benefits

880
00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:20,463
to all of these different
levels of data collection.

881
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:24,243
Yeah, absolutely.

882
00:44:25,410 --> 00:44:27,033
And yeah, I think to, I think,

883
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:31,590
just to kinda step back and summarize

884
00:44:31,590 --> 00:44:33,180
how it's sort of shaking
out from my point of view

885
00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:35,160
is there's a number of
arguments being made

886
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,710
for something regionwide,
New England, New York,

887
00:44:37,710 --> 00:44:41,100
coordinated could be really valuable.

888
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:41,933
And then it's like, well,

889
00:44:41,933 --> 00:44:44,530
figuring out what those questions are

890
00:44:45,583 --> 00:44:47,130
and then I think that would shift,

891
00:44:47,130 --> 00:44:48,720
that would then set the conversation,

892
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,780
yeah, we should use iNaturalist or NPN

893
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:54,480
or PhenoCam or this particular,
or add a legacy dataset

894
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,790
or this particular combination of those.

895
00:44:56,790 --> 00:45:01,233
Just kind of, we've got your
pile of networks and tools,

896
00:45:02,878 --> 00:45:04,440
and you have your question,
and you just figure out

897
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:09,440
what the right composition
is for the direction

898
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:13,220
that any project like
that would wanna go in.

899
00:45:13,220 --> 00:45:14,403
Am I making sense?

900
00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:19,800
[Attendee] Yes. (laughs)

901
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,030
No, I totally agree.

902
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:23,370
I think that sort of nested
design is really important

903
00:45:23,370 --> 00:45:24,960
for us to understand anything, right,

904
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,460
where you have the really intensive sites

905
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:29,550
where you can get down to the phase

906
00:45:29,550 --> 00:45:32,103
or the species differences.

907
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,040
I do also think that maybe the
other question in there is,

908
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,650
what are the opportunities and barriers

909
00:45:40,650 --> 00:45:42,210
to even establishing anything, right?

910
00:45:42,210 --> 00:45:45,000
So if there were an opportunity

911
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,660
to set up some sort of a
citizen science PhenoCam thing

912
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:51,510
where people agree to, once a week,

913
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:54,060
go out and take a
picture of this landscape

914
00:45:54,060 --> 00:45:55,350
from some fixed location,

915
00:45:55,350 --> 00:45:58,500
and you have now essentially PhenoCams

916
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:02,790
that you could run through
the processing from all over.

917
00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:04,410
That might be an opportunity where it's,

918
00:46:04,410 --> 00:46:05,460
you're not buying the equipment,

919
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:09,270
you're just training citizen scientists.

920
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:11,580
Whereas in other places,
there might be funding

921
00:46:11,580 --> 00:46:13,925
that comes available
for the installation of,

922
00:46:13,925 --> 00:46:17,190
or for whatever, more data collection

923
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:19,260
on existing inventory plots or something.

924
00:46:19,260 --> 00:46:20,880
Yeah, I feel like the opportunities,

925
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,550
we should be thinking about
sort of different approaches

926
00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:26,430
based on what we even have to work with.

927
00:46:26,430 --> 00:46:27,720
-Right.
-Yeah, and when it comes

928
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,170
to the citizen science piece,
we've had some experience

929
00:46:31,170 --> 00:46:35,040
with different phenology approaches.

930
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,400
And it takes a lot more work

931
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,260
to build a citizen science network

932
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:43,140
and maintain it than maybe people think.

933
00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:45,780
And so what we've found is iNaturalist

934
00:46:45,780 --> 00:46:48,780
is the easiest approach to that

935
00:46:48,780 --> 00:46:50,970
because it is the easiest lift.

936
00:46:50,970 --> 00:46:52,500
And someone can participate once,

937
00:46:52,500 --> 00:46:55,380
or they can participate all season long.

938
00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:59,820
And so I do think that
when we come to challenges,

939
00:46:59,820 --> 00:47:01,740
we have to remember,

940
00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:05,100
when we're building these
different types of networks,

941
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:07,530
what is the long-term resources?

942
00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:08,730
Well, what's the initial resources,

943
00:47:08,730 --> 00:47:12,630
but also what is the sustainable resources

944
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:16,140
in that program staying in place,

945
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:18,340
especially when it comes
to citizen science?

946
00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:24,090
Yeah, so is that a good transition,

947
00:47:24,090 --> 00:47:27,213
do we think, to talking about challenges?

948
00:47:28,350 --> 00:47:29,910
Yep, I think so.

949
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:30,743
Awesome.

950
00:47:30,743 --> 00:47:31,576
Yeah, so I think I was gonna,

951
00:47:31,576 --> 00:47:34,380
we were gonna shoot to
do that as a Jamboard,

952
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:39,360
and I'll just put these up
here as people shout them out.

953
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,860
So what are some of the challenges

954
00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:44,283
to coordinated phenology monitoring?

955
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:46,460
-Money.
-Resources.

956
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,620
What'd you say, money?

957
00:47:49,620 --> 00:47:52,773
Money, yeah.

958
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:56,280
Yeah, and I think that leads into then,

959
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,010
well, that's why citizen
science is so valuable,

960
00:47:59,010 --> 00:48:01,680
but we are talking about
the time and the effort

961
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,980
and the coordination of
citizen science, and then also,

962
00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:08,661
we wanna make sure it's
scientifically rigorous too.

963
00:48:08,661 --> 00:48:13,661
Uh-huh.

964
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:21,780
[Attendee] Honestly, I think
access is another piece,

965
00:48:21,780 --> 00:48:24,540
getting two plots every day

966
00:48:24,540 --> 00:48:27,150
during times that you would expect

967
00:48:27,150 --> 00:48:30,240
or would wanna be
monitoring phenology changes

968
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,000
is, I think, one of those
really time-intensive

969
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,133
and yeah, logistical challenges,

970
00:48:36,270 --> 00:48:38,770
especially if you're trying
to hit multiple plots.

971
00:48:43,379 --> 00:48:44,580
Yeah.

972
00:48:44,580 --> 00:48:46,020
Yeah, feel free to correct me

973
00:48:46,020 --> 00:48:49,233
if I'm getting any of
these not quite right.

974
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:53,040
[Attendee] We were talking
about standardization

975
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,170
and just, there are so
many different species,

976
00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:59,550
and it can't be inferred
from one to another,

977
00:48:59,550 --> 00:49:00,850
especially with phenology,

978
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:06,155
how to pick which species
and what to monitor.

979
00:49:06,155 --> 00:49:06,988
Uh-huh.

980
00:49:09,297 --> 00:49:12,786
[Attendee] How to pick which
species and what to monitor.

981
00:49:12,786 --> 00:49:13,619
Yes.

982
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,010
You mean in particular also

983
00:49:17,010 --> 00:49:19,080
that species life history is different,

984
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,280
and so you might be collecting
one thing on one plant

985
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,513
and another on another?

986
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,600
I think also, can we pick one species-

987
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,180
-An indicator.
-An indicator, yeah,

988
00:49:33,180 --> 00:49:34,410
throughout the region.

989
00:49:34,410 --> 00:49:38,040
That would obviously create
easy standardization.

990
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,490
-Great.
-Canada mayflower.

991
00:49:42,090 --> 00:49:43,233
So well-behaved.

992
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,080
[Attendee] I would throw in sampling bias

993
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,470
needs to be avoided and
is easily introduced.

994
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:53,303
Yeah.

995
00:49:57,630 --> 00:49:58,463
Totally.

996
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:08,130
[Attendee] I feel like there's a lot

997
00:50:08,130 --> 00:50:09,630
of different methodologies too.

998
00:50:09,630 --> 00:50:14,400
And not only does the method differ,

999
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,790
but I feel like a lot of it is subjective.

1000
00:50:17,790 --> 00:50:20,910
So even myself being out there,

1001
00:50:20,910 --> 00:50:24,810
if we're using a
seven-class budburst system,

1002
00:50:24,810 --> 00:50:26,763
is it a five or a six?

1003
00:50:29,068 --> 00:50:31,230
You can have two people standing there

1004
00:50:31,230 --> 00:50:32,880
thinking something very different.

1005
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,960
And so I do think that there's
some subjectivity that just,

1006
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,370
I mean, you're gonna see the big changes,

1007
00:50:38,370 --> 00:50:42,300
but if you're trying to
look at more of a nuance,

1008
00:50:42,300 --> 00:50:44,550
for example, like the rate of greenup,

1009
00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:46,440
was one year particularly faster?

1010
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,260
How do you quantify when
we hit full leaf out

1011
00:50:49,260 --> 00:50:51,390
and how long that was since budburst?

1012
00:50:51,390 --> 00:50:54,570
And how many buds on the
tree have to have bursts

1013
00:50:54,570 --> 00:50:56,068
before you call it budburst?

1014
00:50:56,068 --> 00:50:59,730
And I just, I feel like there does,

1015
00:50:59,730 --> 00:51:01,530
maybe it's my bias of
being very quantitative,

1016
00:51:01,530 --> 00:51:03,570
but I feel like there needs to be some fix

1017
00:51:03,570 --> 00:51:05,840
to the subjectivity of the
measurements themselves.

1018
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,660
[Georgia] Yeah, trees are
so difficult in that way,

1019
00:51:09,660 --> 00:51:11,310
no matter what protocol you're using.

1020
00:51:11,310 --> 00:51:14,220
So I agree

1021
00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:18,600
that it's species-dependent, in some ways.

1022
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,360
It goes back to the which
is the better bioindicator

1023
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,160
or maybe the method.

1024
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,543
Does the PhenoCam do
a better job at trees?

1025
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:30,720
[Attendee] Or should we
be using light meters?

1026
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:32,790
Literally, are there other approaches

1027
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:35,703
that we could be using to track that?

1028
00:51:37,260 --> 00:51:38,910
I mean, a couple people,

1029
00:51:38,910 --> 00:51:40,590
when we were having our discussion,

1030
00:51:40,590 --> 00:51:43,020
did mention some of the remote sensing,

1031
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:45,693
greenness scale, NDVI, and maybe things

1032
00:51:45,693 --> 00:51:48,761
that could give us some
more quantitative data

1033
00:51:48,761 --> 00:51:50,011
in that aspect.

1034
00:51:52,227 --> 00:51:53,060
Yeah.

1035
00:51:54,453 --> 00:51:55,500
[Attendee] If I can just throw in,

1036
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:58,590
I think things work better in
coordination with each other.

1037
00:51:58,590 --> 00:52:01,970
So at least with our approach,
what I've been trying to do,

1038
00:52:01,970 --> 00:52:04,050
you have on-the-ground observations,

1039
00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:05,760
which are then validated by PhenoCam,

1040
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,790
which are then, above that,
validated by satellite imagery.

1041
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:11,940
So there's this nested approach.

1042
00:52:11,940 --> 00:52:13,230
Things are stacked on top of each other,

1043
00:52:13,230 --> 00:52:16,110
kinda all validating one another.

1044
00:52:16,110 --> 00:52:20,610
I think having access to all
of those levels of information

1045
00:52:20,610 --> 00:52:23,310
is gonna be important,
ideally in one place,

1046
00:52:23,310 --> 00:52:25,263
and ideally easy to get at.

1047
00:52:27,270 --> 00:52:30,270
Sorry, where are you based

1048
00:52:30,270 --> 00:52:32,070
where you're doing all three levels?

1049
00:52:32,970 --> 00:52:34,000
[Attendee] Sorry, what was that?

1050
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,540
I was just wondering where you're based

1051
00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:39,521
with that example of the
multi-level thing going on?

1052
00:52:39,521 --> 00:52:42,350
[Attendee] Oh, I'm with
the AMC with Georgia.

1053
00:52:42,350 --> 00:52:43,183
Okay.

1054
00:52:43,183 --> 00:52:45,780
[Attendee] We're right
now working on going

1055
00:52:45,780 --> 00:52:48,933
through PhenoCam images
from Pinkham Notch,

1056
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:55,100
and they're centered on
woodland tree canopy plots,

1057
00:52:55,410 --> 00:52:58,260
which I've then, I've taken
that area, and I've extracted,

1058
00:52:58,260 --> 00:53:00,780
I've drawn a polygon around the area

1059
00:53:00,780 --> 00:53:04,740
to extract Landsat and
MODIS vegetation indices,

1060
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:08,850
so three levels of
monitoring, if you will.

1061
00:53:08,850 --> 00:53:13,560
-Awesome, awesome, awesome.
-All synced up.

1062
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,080
Is there anyone else online

1063
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,693
that wants to jump in with a challenge?

1064
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:29,430
[Georgia] I guess if,

1065
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:32,583
specifically around the
citizen science piece,

1066
00:53:33,450 --> 00:53:36,540
getting the data back out

1067
00:53:36,540 --> 00:53:39,540
to your volunteers.

1068
00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:40,946
I think that that,

1069
00:53:40,946 --> 00:53:43,230
and that may go with
the resource question,

1070
00:53:43,230 --> 00:53:47,190
but it's really about that
feedback that's really important

1071
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:48,843
to keep citizen science going.

1072
00:53:50,610 --> 00:53:52,080
[Attendee] That's a really good point.

1073
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,380
I think what we're focused on
here is the data collection,

1074
00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:59,160
but who analyzes the
data and to what purpose,

1075
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,500
and then how is that
disseminated and used?

1076
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:03,210
That's a really good point

1077
00:54:03,210 --> 00:54:04,650
that I feel like we overlook a lot.

1078
00:54:04,650 --> 00:54:06,210
We're so focused on getting the data,

1079
00:54:06,210 --> 00:54:09,573
and then it sometimes sits.

1080
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:12,870
Yeah, that's making me think,

1081
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:15,060
kind of along the lines of a challenges,

1082
00:54:15,060 --> 00:54:16,320
how do you make your program

1083
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,830
so that it continues
momentum and long-term?

1084
00:54:19,830 --> 00:54:21,600
So on the citizen science aspect,

1085
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,250
yes, keeping everybody engaged,

1086
00:54:23,250 --> 00:54:24,690
but then also just a challenge,

1087
00:54:24,690 --> 00:54:26,865
how do we make these long-term?

1088
00:54:26,865 --> 00:54:28,665
Oh, I thought you said (indistinct).

1089
00:54:31,290 --> 00:54:34,623
Yeah, sorry, Alana, I
think yours is slightly,

1090
00:54:36,180 --> 00:54:37,830
it's related, but it's
slightly different, right?

1091
00:54:37,830 --> 00:54:39,900
It's sustaining the
efforts in the long term.

1092
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:41,550
I don't think that's on here yet.

1093
00:54:44,340 --> 00:54:46,470
[Georgia] Yeah, and
keeping funders interested.

1094
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:50,590
Long-term monitoring is not always

1095
00:54:51,630 --> 00:54:53,433
top of mind for funders.

1096
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,990
[Attendee] And I almost wonder too

1097
00:55:00,990 --> 00:55:04,380
if one of the challenges is
just that there are a lot

1098
00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:05,520
of people out there doing it,

1099
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,003
and we don't really know all of them.

1100
00:55:08,003 --> 00:55:11,253
I mean, I feel like we shouldn't
be duplicating efforts,

1101
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:13,223
but are we?

1102
00:55:15,227 --> 00:55:18,750
[Attendee] Along those
lines, sampling intensity,

1103
00:55:18,750 --> 00:55:21,543
are we measuring enough, or
are we measuring too much?

1104
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,393
There's some kind of
windy-sounding background.

1105
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,880
[Attendee] I think it's the projector.

1106
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,770
Oh, like the projector's caught.

1107
00:55:52,770 --> 00:55:54,970
Oh, yeah, it's right next to a microphone.

1108
00:55:56,370 --> 00:55:57,370
We can still hear.

1109
00:56:02,010 --> 00:56:02,913
These are great.

1110
00:56:09,150 --> 00:56:13,203
So we have 25 minutes left of our session.

1111
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:15,843
If there's any other,

1112
00:56:17,580 --> 00:56:20,193
I think our next piece is,

1113
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,260
what could coordinated
regional phenology monitoring

1114
00:56:25,260 --> 00:56:26,093
look like?

1115
00:56:26,093 --> 00:56:29,853
What criteria would we use to
determine what to focus on?

1116
00:56:32,972 --> 00:56:34,650
I can save this question

1117
00:56:34,650 --> 00:56:37,113
and put it over here in the big notes.

1118
00:56:48,444 --> 00:56:50,160
Does that seem right, or any other,

1119
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,740
I'm happy to add more, or I
can keep on adding challenges

1120
00:56:52,740 --> 00:56:55,503
as they come up over here too.

1121
00:56:58,411 --> 00:57:00,233
Think we have a good list of challenges.

1122
00:57:01,410 --> 00:57:03,860
Are we all, is everyone
just feeling like, ugh,

1123
00:57:05,812 --> 00:57:06,979
it's too hard?

1124
00:57:07,823 --> 00:57:10,740
I mean, but looking at that to consider,

1125
00:57:10,740 --> 00:57:12,767
how do we, how do we endure?

1126
00:57:12,767 --> 00:57:14,763
How do we work around these?

1127
00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:18,803
Yeah.

1128
00:57:20,490 --> 00:57:21,720
I like what was said earlier

1129
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:26,130
about having a sort of phenology meeting

1130
00:57:26,130 --> 00:57:29,040
and more of the players coming together.

1131
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,050
This is great, we kind
of started a little bit

1132
00:57:31,050 --> 00:57:32,760
of getting the ball rolling
this working session,

1133
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,380
but maybe we need to,

1134
00:57:34,380 --> 00:57:36,513
I know there's a lot of
momentum maybe with more people

1135
00:57:36,513 --> 00:57:41,343
that are involved with US NPN et al.

1136
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,390
But yeah, maybe we need to
have something more coordinated

1137
00:57:47,361 --> 00:57:49,923
to really talk about it face to face.

1138
00:57:52,830 --> 00:57:53,663
Yeah.

1139
00:57:56,490 --> 00:57:58,200
[Attendee] I mean, I feel like
there's low-hanging fruit,

1140
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,090
and then there's the aspirational, sorry,

1141
00:58:00,090 --> 00:58:01,852
so what would a regional
network look like?

1142
00:58:01,852 --> 00:58:04,152
I think that's the
direction you wanted us to.

1143
00:58:05,358 --> 00:58:08,070
And when I think of low-hanging fruit,

1144
00:58:08,070 --> 00:58:09,150
I mean, I think the first thing

1145
00:58:09,150 --> 00:58:11,760
is just to identify everybody

1146
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,390
who is doing phenology monitoring where,

1147
00:58:15,390 --> 00:58:17,710
and just getting them in the same place

1148
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,600
to figure out, we're a great start,

1149
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,790
but I think there's a lot of other players

1150
00:58:23,790 --> 00:58:27,420
who maybe aren't here that it
would be good to engage with.

1151
00:58:27,420 --> 00:58:30,320
And then the other sort of
low-hanging fruit is are there,

1152
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:32,850
what comes out of those discussions

1153
00:58:32,850 --> 00:58:34,500
is where are there information gaps,

1154
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:36,060
or what are the biggest needs?

1155
00:58:36,060 --> 00:58:38,280
What are the species we
should be focusing on

1156
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,563
or the locations, is it alpine?

1157
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:46,080
Yeah, and that if we then
could just apply for funding

1158
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,333
to be able to fill those gaps.

1159
00:58:49,590 --> 00:58:52,350
To me, those are sort of all, I mean,

1160
00:58:52,350 --> 00:58:53,910
I'm not saying they'd all be successful,

1161
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:56,610
but those are lower-hanging fruit.

1162
00:58:56,610 --> 00:59:01,050
I think more aspirational
would be to figure out

1163
00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:03,990
how to incorporate phenology monitoring

1164
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:08,550
into the forest health monitoring
that's already ongoing.

1165
00:59:08,550 --> 00:59:10,140
And I think that's really aspirational,

1166
00:59:10,140 --> 00:59:11,670
just because of the timing.

1167
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:14,520
I mean, if it were (indistinct),
we could say, okay,

1168
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,140
when you're doing your
forest health measurements,

1169
00:59:16,140 --> 00:59:19,380
you're gonna add this
additional monitoring effort,

1170
00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:20,880
but you can't do that with phenology.

1171
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:25,170
So I think figuring out how
that could be incorporated

1172
00:59:25,170 --> 00:59:27,450
to the monitoring that's already going on.

1173
00:59:27,450 --> 00:59:30,090
So then it could also be then analyzed

1174
00:59:30,090 --> 00:59:32,760
against the other data that
we have for those plots

1175
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,410
and the historical data that
we have for those plots.

1176
00:59:36,330 --> 00:59:37,980
I think that would be great.

1177
00:59:37,980 --> 00:59:39,270
And then the other aspirational one

1178
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:41,250
is just to instrument up the forest

1179
00:59:41,250 --> 00:59:44,250
and be getting sort of
automated constant flows

1180
00:59:44,250 --> 00:59:45,490
of phenology data

1181
00:59:47,610 --> 00:59:50,373
from a good random sample
from across the region.

1182
00:59:52,830 --> 00:59:55,110
[Georgia] I don't know if
this would be consistent

1183
00:59:55,110 --> 00:59:57,450
across all the voices at this meeting,

1184
00:59:57,450 --> 01:00:00,810
but I see as a more aspirational point

1185
01:00:00,810 --> 01:00:03,780
is that this phenology data is used

1186
01:00:03,780 --> 01:00:07,230
in conservation decision-making

1187
01:00:07,230 --> 01:00:09,330
and land conservation in particular

1188
01:00:09,330 --> 01:00:12,840
as we look at 30 by '30 and 50 by '50.

1189
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,330
And that the comment that
was made in our group

1190
01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:19,140
that was really insightful
is that this type of data

1191
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:23,850
can use to look at things ecologically

1192
01:00:23,850 --> 01:00:26,073
and not politically.

1193
01:00:47,490 --> 01:00:48,323
Yeah.

1194
01:00:49,862 --> 01:00:50,862
Acquisition.

1195
01:00:57,390 --> 01:00:59,180
[Attendee] Where does citizen
science fit in here, right?

1196
01:00:59,180 --> 01:01:00,723
Is that an opportunity?

1197
01:01:02,850 --> 01:01:05,340
Just sitting here brainstorming,
I had this idea of,

1198
01:01:05,340 --> 01:01:08,850
well, why not on all of the
trails, AMC trails, whatever,

1199
01:01:08,850 --> 01:01:11,400
the long trails, whatever,
Appalachian trails,

1200
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:12,577
you just have posts and you say,

1201
01:01:12,577 --> 01:01:13,627
"Hey, if you walk by,

1202
01:01:13,627 --> 01:01:16,207
"put your iPhone here and take a picture,

1203
01:01:16,207 --> 01:01:18,390
"and then here's the QR
code to upload that."

1204
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:19,680
And then I started.

1205
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,420
[Georgia] I think you
missed Jordan's talk.

1206
01:01:21,420 --> 01:01:22,933
[Attendee] Oh, I did, okay.

1207
01:01:22,933 --> 01:01:27,933
Do you get a lot of butts
in your pictures? (laughs)

1208
01:01:28,233 --> 01:01:30,870
[Georgia] No, we've
been using iNaturalist,

1209
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:33,180
and I forget the numbers,
Jordan, you could tell her,

1210
01:01:33,180 --> 01:01:38,180
but certainly, it works for woodland,

1211
01:01:38,430 --> 01:01:40,653
forbs, and alpine plants.

1212
01:01:41,670 --> 01:01:43,533
iNaturalist is a really great tool.

1213
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:45,353
[Attendee] Yeah, no, that's awesome.

1214
01:01:45,353 --> 01:01:47,760
I guess I was thinking more
like The PhenoCam Network.

1215
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:49,260
It literally is a landscape.

1216
01:01:49,260 --> 01:01:52,140
So if it's on top of Mount
Mansfield or Mount Washington,

1217
01:01:52,140 --> 01:01:53,430
and people stop along the trail,

1218
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:54,600
and they're hiking every day.

1219
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:55,740
So you could have, every day,

1220
01:01:55,740 --> 01:02:00,000
another photo from the landscape.

1221
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,890
I guess, maybe not many
people are out hiking

1222
01:02:01,890 --> 01:02:03,487
during the shoulder season.

1223
01:02:03,487 --> 01:02:06,300
Well, but yet, is there anyone here

1224
01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:08,280
that represents Picture Post?

1225
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:09,930
And I don't know what
the status of that is.

1226
01:02:09,930 --> 01:02:11,400
That was a project out of UNH

1227
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:16,080
where it was just the
little post with six sides,

1228
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:17,940
and you would set your
cell phone down on a side

1229
01:02:17,940 --> 01:02:21,210
or all sides and take a picture
and one picture facing up.

1230
01:02:21,210 --> 01:02:22,920
Right, and it would kind of give you

1231
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,120
the six-side PhenoCam effect.

1232
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,850
[Attendee] And I was
a Picture Post person.

1233
01:02:26,850 --> 01:02:29,130
I have a Picture Post on my land,

1234
01:02:29,130 --> 01:02:31,500
and I literally couldn't keep up with it.

1235
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:34,320
That's why I'm thinking, could
it be on a heavy traffic area

1236
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,227
where it's not one person
(indistinct) maintaining that,

1237
01:02:37,227 --> 01:02:40,050
but it's literally anybody who walks by?

1238
01:02:40,050 --> 01:02:41,220
-Yeah.
-Yeah, and I think

1239
01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:44,040
the challenge there goes back
to some of our challenges,

1240
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,430
which is who is taking
the data and processing it

1241
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:49,470
and making it useful?

1242
01:02:49,470 --> 01:02:51,903
I think that that's where
Picture Post kind of,

1243
01:02:53,010 --> 01:02:55,020
it was more like, hey, come use our data,

1244
01:02:55,020 --> 01:02:58,383
but if there's nobody really
doing it, I think you,

1245
01:02:59,610 --> 01:03:02,043
yep, so I think it's a great idea,

1246
01:03:03,660 --> 01:03:06,420
with permit issues aside,

1247
01:03:06,420 --> 01:03:10,560
but it's also about
where does the data go,

1248
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,440
and how does it get processed
in a meaningful way?

1249
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,330
[Attendee] Yeah, that's FEMC. (laughs)

1250
01:03:17,369 --> 01:03:18,780
It's gotta be an automated script, right?

1251
01:03:18,780 --> 01:03:21,030
When the QR code uploads the image,

1252
01:03:21,030 --> 01:03:24,843
it's automatically processed
and added to the database.

1253
01:03:26,910 --> 01:03:28,890
[Attendee] Well, that was my aspirational,

1254
01:03:28,890 --> 01:03:30,870
there has to be some big data hub,

1255
01:03:30,870 --> 01:03:32,490
where I don't know how iNaturalist

1256
01:03:32,490 --> 01:03:35,973
might fit into data upload.

1257
01:03:40,020 --> 01:03:40,920
[Attendee] People can walk on trails

1258
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:42,960
and literally just turn their cameras up,

1259
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,000
straight up, and take a
photo, and there's all-

1260
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,340
[Attendee] But it's gotta be
the same place every time.

1261
01:03:47,340 --> 01:03:49,860
[Attendee] Well, it's all geolocated.

1262
01:03:49,860 --> 01:03:51,930
You could have a random scattering,

1263
01:03:51,930 --> 01:03:55,710
as long as you can extract
the environmental information

1264
01:03:55,710 --> 01:03:57,210
from that photo.

1265
01:03:57,210 --> 01:04:00,390
You can say a lot, especially
if there's tons of photos.

1266
01:04:00,390 --> 01:04:01,640
Things kinda average out.

1267
01:04:03,450 --> 01:04:06,870
There are automated ways
to detect canopy openness,

1268
01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:11,040
just penetrating through the
canopy would be super helpful

1269
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,310
and probably could be hosted
on the iNaturalist platform

1270
01:04:14,310 --> 01:04:16,320
with some modifications, probably.

1271
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,683
Probably something very
aspirational, but possible.

1272
01:04:20,730 --> 01:04:22,440
[Attendee] We used that for the FEMC plots

1273
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:23,670
for transparency data.

1274
01:04:23,670 --> 01:04:26,040
And I think the key is automating,

1275
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:26,930
just being able to automate it,

1276
01:04:26,930 --> 01:04:29,579
so the pictures come in
and are automatically done.

1277
01:04:29,579 --> 01:04:30,750
[Attendee] Yeah.

1278
01:04:30,750 --> 01:04:33,478
There'd probably be a ton
that are crappy photos

1279
01:04:33,478 --> 01:04:34,970
that we couldn't do anything with,

1280
01:04:34,970 --> 01:04:37,887
but there'd be some that would be good.

1281
01:04:37,887 --> 01:04:41,283
So I don't know if anyone
has ever used it, but,

1282
01:04:45,510 --> 01:04:47,940
what's the app called, the photo app?

1283
01:04:47,940 --> 01:04:50,340
Instagram, all those photos,

1284
01:04:50,340 --> 01:04:51,990
some of them, you can make public,

1285
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:54,240
and they're geotagged,
they're time tagged,

1286
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,100
and there's places on the landscape

1287
01:04:56,100 --> 01:04:58,440
that people take photos from so frequently

1288
01:04:58,440 --> 01:04:59,790
that you could basically have that.

1289
01:04:59,790 --> 01:05:02,550
They just already publicly posted.

1290
01:05:02,550 --> 01:05:03,750
[Attendee] Influencer.

1291
01:05:05,340 --> 01:05:07,020
[Attendee] There's
overlooks where every day,

1292
01:05:07,020 --> 01:05:08,745
-somebody's taking a photo.
-That's true.

1293
01:05:08,745 --> 01:05:09,940
-Data mining.
-Yeah, it's true,

1294
01:05:09,940 --> 01:05:11,220
you just have to mine the data.

1295
01:05:11,220 --> 01:05:12,150
It's already out there,

1296
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:14,150
at least as long as the app has existed.

1297
01:05:15,524 --> 01:05:17,786
[Attendee] Does anyone use Reel?

1298
01:05:17,786 --> 01:05:19,036
Could use that.

1299
01:05:21,673 --> 01:05:24,930
[Georgia] Yeah, and that's
how I realized iNaturalist

1300
01:05:24,930 --> 01:05:29,130
was gonna work, because I just looked,

1301
01:05:29,130 --> 01:05:31,890
what was organically
being monitored there?

1302
01:05:31,890 --> 01:05:35,927
And you can see painted trillium

1303
01:05:37,530 --> 01:05:38,970
along the whole Appalachian Trail.

1304
01:05:38,970 --> 01:05:39,843
It's wonderful.

1305
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:42,263
Yeah.

1306
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,730
When you said data hub, I
did think of this one slide

1307
01:05:47,730 --> 01:05:49,950
that I didn't share at the end.

1308
01:05:49,950 --> 01:05:52,050
So we did have NASA
funding a few years ago

1309
01:05:52,050 --> 01:05:56,040
to make this APIS, Advanced
Phenology Information System.

1310
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,850
So it took, is there a website here?

1311
01:05:59,850 --> 01:06:01,080
I'll try to stick it in the chat

1312
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:02,340
or the notes that go out
from this at the end.

1313
01:06:02,340 --> 01:06:05,250
But there's, so you
can, for your location,

1314
01:06:05,250 --> 01:06:08,410
see where the in situ data
is and the PhenoCam data

1315
01:06:09,540 --> 01:06:11,070
and your MODIS pixel.

1316
01:06:11,070 --> 01:06:14,130
And so it's supposed to
facilitate getting that data

1317
01:06:14,130 --> 01:06:15,060
and intercomparing it.

1318
01:06:15,060 --> 01:06:16,500
But it's not the level of automation

1319
01:06:16,500 --> 01:06:19,350
that I think is being
dreamed of in this session.

1320
01:06:19,350 --> 01:06:21,750
But just to say that there's
a little bit of foundation

1321
01:06:21,750 --> 01:06:22,650
in that direction.

1322
01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:38,433
Cool, what other dreams?

1323
01:07:03,372 --> 01:07:05,702
Could we underline automating analysis,

1324
01:07:05,702 --> 01:07:09,112
'cause that's really the
door-opener to a lot of this.

1325
01:07:09,112 --> 01:07:09,945
Uh-huh.

1326
01:07:11,854 --> 01:07:12,930
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say too,

1327
01:07:12,930 --> 01:07:14,730
we could talk to the, I mean, PhenoCam,

1328
01:07:14,730 --> 01:07:17,340
I think, has done a really
nice job of automating.

1329
01:07:17,340 --> 01:07:18,900
When you go look at a PhenoCam thing,

1330
01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:22,500
you see the greenness values.

1331
01:07:22,500 --> 01:07:25,803
So just talking to them
about that process,

1332
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:27,960
I think, is good.

1333
01:07:31,890 --> 01:07:33,840
And then there's of course
the part you can't automate,

1334
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,170
right, like the question
and the interpretation,

1335
01:07:37,170 --> 01:07:40,320
and that requires thinking.

1336
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,670
But I think we're talking
about the automating,

1337
01:07:44,220 --> 01:07:46,860
extracting the metrics,
like the start of season

1338
01:07:46,860 --> 01:07:48,010
or something like that.

1339
01:07:56,010 --> 01:07:57,150
[Attendee] Is this the kind of thing

1340
01:07:57,150 --> 01:07:58,830
where the more data, the better?

1341
01:07:58,830 --> 01:08:01,353
Or do you kind of level off,

1342
01:08:03,930 --> 01:08:08,073
reach a threshold where
you have your answer?

1343
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:12,983
Yeah.

1344
01:08:19,020 --> 01:08:20,280
[Attendee] I don't think having more data

1345
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,163
is inherently detrimental to you.

1346
01:08:23,163 --> 01:08:25,200
I think there could be a possibility

1347
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,900
of wasting effort at a certain point,

1348
01:08:27,900 --> 01:08:29,800
and that's the worst thing I think of.

1349
01:08:31,650 --> 01:08:33,684
So it all depends on your appetite

1350
01:08:33,684 --> 01:08:36,337
or amount of work you wanna put in.

1351
01:08:38,480 --> 01:08:39,313
[Attendee] At some point,

1352
01:08:39,313 --> 01:08:41,043
you're just reducing your error bars.

1353
01:08:43,440 --> 01:08:44,940
Where are we trying to get to?

1354
01:08:48,300 --> 01:08:49,770
[Attendee] I think there's
so much variability

1355
01:08:49,770 --> 01:08:50,910
across the landscape

1356
01:08:50,910 --> 01:08:53,550
that you might reduce the
error bars in one place,

1357
01:08:53,550 --> 01:08:55,350
but there's still so many other places

1358
01:08:55,350 --> 01:08:57,120
that may be responding differently.

1359
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:58,230
[Attendee] Right, and it's over time,

1360
01:08:58,230 --> 01:09:00,680
so every time you take
data, that's (indistinct).

1361
01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:04,133
[Attendee] I think the question

1362
01:09:04,133 --> 01:09:05,850
is you don't want bad data, right,

1363
01:09:05,850 --> 01:09:09,060
so you have to kinda cut it
off, well, one is just effort,

1364
01:09:09,060 --> 01:09:13,113
return on investment, but
the other is data quality.

1365
01:09:22,260 --> 01:09:24,630
[Attendee] So it really
is a monitoring effort.

1366
01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:26,790
You can't have your question answered.

1367
01:09:26,790 --> 01:09:29,233
[Attendee] There's not an answer. (laughs)

1368
01:09:31,740 --> 01:09:33,180
I mean, yeah, I think if the question is,

1369
01:09:33,180 --> 01:09:35,520
how is climate change
affecting plant phenology?

1370
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:37,590
Even if your question is that broad,

1371
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:39,960
I feel like that does
just really go on and on

1372
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:41,970
because climate change
continues to happen,

1373
01:09:41,970 --> 01:09:44,040
and there's so much
variation between years,

1374
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:44,873
and there's so much variation

1375
01:09:44,873 --> 01:09:47,103
between species and landscapes.

1376
01:09:49,020 --> 01:09:50,700
Yeah, but I think one of the questions

1377
01:09:50,700 --> 01:09:54,510
that Georgia threw out there,
using phenology information

1378
01:09:54,510 --> 01:09:57,960
for conservation planning or
deciding where to protect land,

1379
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:59,580
I feel like that could be more concrete

1380
01:09:59,580 --> 01:10:00,990
and end at some point.

1381
01:10:00,990 --> 01:10:02,610
We have enough information
to make this decision

1382
01:10:02,610 --> 01:10:06,690
about this land acquisition,
and so we're done.

1383
01:10:06,690 --> 01:10:09,633
So just those are my thoughts there.

1384
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:12,980
[Attendee] Also, it
might be helpful to have,

1385
01:10:12,980 --> 01:10:15,300
in this area, we need
this question answered,

1386
01:10:15,300 --> 01:10:17,976
so we need to collect this type of data,

1387
01:10:17,976 --> 01:10:19,893
really having explicit.

1388
01:10:21,210 --> 01:10:22,320
That's what we really try to do

1389
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:23,910
with these local phenology projects

1390
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:27,003
is constrain and be like, you wanna know,

1391
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:29,973
is our understory forbs,

1392
01:10:31,110 --> 01:10:34,320
are invasive understory forbs
getting the edge on natives,

1393
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,990
and we're gonna collect
this data on these species

1394
01:10:36,990 --> 01:10:39,390
for this period of time and get that grip.

1395
01:10:39,390 --> 01:10:40,620
But a lot of partners,

1396
01:10:40,620 --> 01:10:43,170
ones on the call like Kerissa and Georgia,

1397
01:10:43,170 --> 01:10:45,630
do wanna know, what's
the climate change story?

1398
01:10:45,630 --> 01:10:46,463
What are the trends?

1399
01:10:46,463 --> 01:10:49,680
And so that does mean sort of open-ended,

1400
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:53,220
ongoing data collection, which
I know they're committed to,

1401
01:10:53,220 --> 01:10:54,520
but it's also challenging.

1402
01:10:55,740 --> 01:10:57,180
[Georgia] Yeah, and one of the things

1403
01:10:57,180 --> 01:10:58,590
that keeps coming up for me

1404
01:10:58,590 --> 01:11:01,080
is the who cares question too.

1405
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:03,450
I think that phenology,

1406
01:11:03,450 --> 01:11:06,300
and NPN has done a great job of this,

1407
01:11:06,300 --> 01:11:11,300
is making sure that this is
front of mind of the public.

1408
01:11:12,090 --> 01:11:16,590
And I do think that
phenology is a natural way

1409
01:11:16,590 --> 01:11:18,870
to broach the climate change issue.

1410
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:22,800
So I think maybe it's not aspirational,

1411
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,750
but it's making sure that we continue

1412
01:11:24,750 --> 01:11:28,530
to maintain connecting
the so what question

1413
01:11:28,530 --> 01:11:32,043
to the broader public of
why we're doing this work.

1414
01:11:33,090 --> 01:11:36,270
Somehow, yeah, I'm not sure where it goes,

1415
01:11:36,270 --> 01:11:37,970
but I think it's really important.

1416
01:11:41,100 --> 01:11:43,137
[Attendee] Yeah, I totally agree.

1417
01:11:43,137 --> 01:11:47,610
And the way that I would
spin that is thinking about,

1418
01:11:47,610 --> 01:11:49,440
well, what are the implications?

1419
01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:52,320
And so I think about
sort of cascading impacts

1420
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:56,100
of changing phenology,
especially for migrating species.

1421
01:11:56,100 --> 01:11:58,740
How might changes in phenology and plants

1422
01:11:58,740 --> 01:12:02,430
affect insect populations,
affect avian populations,

1423
01:12:02,430 --> 01:12:03,870
and so on, so forth?

1424
01:12:03,870 --> 01:12:05,370
So again, it's back to the

1425
01:12:05,370 --> 01:12:07,140
how do you then use this information,

1426
01:12:07,140 --> 01:12:09,603
and who do you pull in?

1427
01:12:10,462 --> 01:12:12,900
That would be a totally
different working session

1428
01:12:12,900 --> 01:12:14,550
of what do we do with this information?

1429
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:17,280
But I do think that that's
one of the applications

1430
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,350
that we have to be thinking
about is it's not just,

1431
01:12:19,350 --> 01:12:21,510
oh, look, climate is
changing, but it's the,

1432
01:12:21,510 --> 01:12:24,400
what does that mean in
terms of ecosystem function

1433
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:27,990
or ecosystem services?

1434
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:28,823
Yeah.

1435
01:12:29,730 --> 01:12:30,580
[Georgia] Yeah.

1436
01:12:33,180 --> 01:12:37,890
The ecosystem services
piece is really important

1437
01:12:37,890 --> 01:12:40,950
from both the making sure that people

1438
01:12:40,950 --> 01:12:45,840
that think just about the economics are,

1439
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,990
but using it in that application

1440
01:12:48,990 --> 01:12:50,440
is really important, I think.

1441
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:10,077
Yeah, for sure.

1442
01:13:24,906 --> 01:13:28,420
So I guess I'm thinking

1443
01:13:29,610 --> 01:13:31,110
a bit about the next steps

1444
01:13:31,110 --> 01:13:35,640
in terms of getting people together.

1445
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,430
I don't know if, Alana, in
the room and on the chat,

1446
01:13:38,430 --> 01:13:39,510
if you wanna just put,

1447
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:41,310
make sure your name and email is down

1448
01:13:41,310 --> 01:13:44,190
if you would be interested in attending

1449
01:13:44,190 --> 01:13:48,420
and/or helping co-organize a meeting

1450
01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:50,350
in the next year

1451
01:13:51,390 --> 01:13:54,762
to go a little further
and really draw out,

1452
01:13:54,762 --> 01:13:58,170
I mean, I have probably enough
network, well, I don't know,

1453
01:13:58,170 --> 01:13:59,700
I feel reasonably well-positioned

1454
01:13:59,700 --> 01:14:02,010
to pull out some people who aren't here,

1455
01:14:02,010 --> 01:14:05,520
in terms of especially the
remote sensing and PhenoCam

1456
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:10,410
and some of the audio monitoring folks.

1457
01:14:10,410 --> 01:14:11,880
So yeah, anyways, sorry.

1458
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,320
But yes, just getting,

1459
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:17,340
if you're on the Teams
meeting, and you're interested,

1460
01:14:17,340 --> 01:14:19,237
put your name and email in the
chat, and I'll gather that,

1461
01:14:19,237 --> 01:14:21,363
and Alana can gather in the room.

1462
01:14:23,010 --> 01:14:26,170
And then, yeah, I guess if we missed any

1463
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,683
dreams that you have, throw
them in now or email us.

1464
01:14:34,188 --> 01:14:36,310
And then, yeah, I don't know-

1465
01:14:36,310 --> 01:14:38,970
Maybe who are interested
can put their emails

1466
01:14:38,970 --> 01:14:41,020
next to their names on the sign-in sheet.

1467
01:14:48,679 --> 01:14:50,799
I think I just wanted to,

1468
01:14:50,799 --> 01:14:54,390
I feel obligated to make a, touch on,

1469
01:14:54,390 --> 01:14:56,610
we're at the FEMC conference.

1470
01:14:56,610 --> 01:14:59,043
There is a lot of resources or just,

1471
01:14:59,918 --> 01:15:02,130
I think FEMC really kind
of brings us all together,

1472
01:15:02,130 --> 01:15:05,700
so there are opportunities
I wanna mention.

1473
01:15:05,700 --> 01:15:08,430
It wouldn't allow for overlap,

1474
01:15:08,430 --> 01:15:10,797
but utilizing the FEMC data archive,

1475
01:15:10,797 --> 01:15:13,770
you can at least, you could search

1476
01:15:13,770 --> 01:15:16,170
through the data archive
phenology, you could see studies.

1477
01:15:16,170 --> 01:15:18,780
So if we could start populating that,

1478
01:15:18,780 --> 01:15:21,497
it's at least a start
that it can be, archive,

1479
01:15:22,850 --> 01:15:25,080
but I mean, that could be one place

1480
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:29,010
that we could start populating
even some of these unknown,

1481
01:15:29,010 --> 01:15:31,771
lesser-known phenology monitoring efforts,

1482
01:15:31,771 --> 01:15:33,193
and we can really start
seeing where the gaps

1483
01:15:33,193 --> 01:15:35,457
or the overlaps are.

1484
01:15:35,457 --> 01:15:37,470
And again, this isn't really,

1485
01:15:37,470 --> 01:15:40,713
maybe so much wouldn't inspire

1486
01:15:40,713 --> 01:15:41,910
a regionwide monitoring effort,

1487
01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:42,800
but I do wanna make mention

1488
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:44,613
of the Ecosystem Monitoring Fund.

1489
01:15:46,230 --> 01:15:47,470
There is a priority for

1490
01:15:51,505 --> 01:15:54,120
improving monitoring projects
or starting new projects,

1491
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:57,390
especially with an emphasis
on a regionwide scale.

1492
01:15:57,390 --> 01:16:01,830
So just remember the resources
that we have through FEMC.

1493
01:16:01,830 --> 01:16:02,823
Thanks for that.

1494
01:16:04,380 --> 01:16:07,680
Yeah, and I think some of the folks

1495
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,170
that came in through me and through NPN

1496
01:16:10,170 --> 01:16:13,260
might not know as much about
FEMC and those resources.

1497
01:16:13,260 --> 01:16:15,300
So we'll just make sure
to sort of share out.

1498
01:16:15,300 --> 01:16:18,960
So that's both a portal
where people can connect

1499
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:23,490
and also a data, what else is there?

1500
01:16:23,490 --> 01:16:25,683
There's funding as well, is that right?

1501
01:16:27,270 --> 01:16:29,301
Yeah, the Ecosystem Monitoring Fund

1502
01:16:29,301 --> 01:16:32,763
is a small grant program
that happens annually,

1503
01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:38,393
funded by FEMC, usually in
the spring. (indistinct)

1504
01:16:40,451 --> 01:16:41,284
Awesome.

1505
01:16:49,620 --> 01:16:53,550
We have five minutes, if
anybody has any burning thoughts

1506
01:16:53,550 --> 01:16:55,143
that they didn't get to share.

1507
01:16:59,670 --> 01:17:02,350
[Attendee] I'll just say
thank you for organizing

1508
01:17:04,299 --> 01:17:05,200
and running this.

1509
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,100
I think this is a really
important conversation.

1510
01:17:08,100 --> 01:17:09,927
I think a lot of people
are interested in it,

1511
01:17:09,927 --> 01:17:11,820
but it just seems kind of so big.

1512
01:17:11,820 --> 01:17:13,710
It's the how do you tackle it?

1513
01:17:13,710 --> 01:17:17,220
So I would say let's keep
the conversations going.

1514
01:17:17,220 --> 01:17:18,780
This is fabulous.

1515
01:17:18,780 --> 01:17:19,613
Thank you.

1516
01:17:20,651 --> 01:17:22,230
Thank you all for attending,
and thank you to Alyssa,

1517
01:17:22,230 --> 01:17:24,522
'cause she's put in so
much work towards it.

1518
01:17:24,522 --> 01:17:25,871
I appreciate it.

1519
01:17:25,871 --> 01:17:26,704
Oh, thank you.

1520
01:17:26,704 --> 01:17:28,471
I really wish I could've
been there in person.

1521
01:17:28,471 --> 01:17:31,221
(group clapping)

1522
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:35,370
Wonderful to be here with you all.

1523
01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:37,080
And I feel like there
is a lot of enthusiasm.

1524
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:38,160
And even the challenges, right,

1525
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,530
they're just really eyes open, right?

1526
01:17:40,530 --> 01:17:42,420
Nobody would go into this naively.

1527
01:17:42,420 --> 01:17:46,080
We know what the challenges
are, and that's really,

1528
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:47,630
I find that really encouraging.

1529
01:17:53,130 --> 01:17:55,830
So there is gonna be a proceedings

1530
01:17:55,830 --> 01:17:59,760
that will be published
from that output set

1531
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,180
from this working session, and
now we have all the emails.

1532
01:18:03,180 --> 01:18:06,180
We can share the proceedings
and share some updates,

1533
01:18:06,180 --> 01:18:08,343
maybe some things that are on the horizon.

1534
01:18:16,290 --> 01:18:17,123
-Great.
-Thank you.

1535
01:18:17,123 --> 01:18:17,978
I think we're done, right?

1536
01:18:17,978 --> 01:18:20,116
Good job, everybody.

1537
01:18:20,116 --> 01:18:20,949
Thank you.