1 00:00:03,890 --> 00:00:04,950 [Kathryn] I'm Kathryn Wrigley. 2 00:00:04,950 --> 00:00:06,540 I work for the Vermont Department 3 00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:07,530 of Forest Parks and Recreation. 4 00:00:07,530 --> 00:00:09,930 I'm an outdoor recreation specialist out 5 00:00:09,930 --> 00:00:11,670 of the Essex junction office. 6 00:00:11,670 --> 00:00:15,840 So I manage recreation on state lands in Northwest Vermont, 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,590 like Camel South, the islands in Mount Mansfield. 8 00:00:19,590 --> 00:00:20,423 And we'll be talking 9 00:00:20,423 --> 00:00:22,920 about the Vermont Backcountry Ski Handbook today, 10 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,000 which we hope is created in common language 11 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,620 for backcountry ski zone management 12 00:00:28,620 --> 00:00:32,100 and we would like to highlight that it was created 13 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:33,810 with the intention of being applicable 14 00:00:33,810 --> 00:00:35,940 to both public and private land. 15 00:00:35,940 --> 00:00:37,800 And then this is my coworker. 16 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:38,727 [Luke] Luke O'Brien. 17 00:00:38,727 --> 00:00:40,500 I'm also a forest rec specialist 18 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,770 outta the St. Johnsbury district office of FPR, 19 00:00:43,770 --> 00:00:45,360 working in the three counties 20 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,357 of the Northeast Kingdom, Essex (indistinct). 21 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,430 So an overview 22 00:00:50,430 --> 00:00:53,100 of what we're gonna discuss today is the purpose 23 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:55,710 of this backcountry handbook 24 00:00:55,710 --> 00:00:57,300 and some of the content that's in it, 25 00:00:57,300 --> 00:01:00,480 including best management practices that have been developed 26 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,230 by both FPR, the US Forest Service 27 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:06,600 and the Catamount Trail Association. 28 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,010 We'll touch briefly on monitoring 29 00:01:08,010 --> 00:01:09,870 and hopefully if we have time, we'll take some questions 30 00:01:09,870 --> 00:01:10,703 at the end. 31 00:01:12,266 --> 00:01:14,580 [Kathryn] So to start us off with sort of a why, 32 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:17,493 in case you aren't familiar with backcountry skiing, 33 00:01:18,330 --> 00:01:22,140 it's where you like ski up a mountain 34 00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:23,700 and then down the mountains. 35 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:26,940 And there's been a really big push 36 00:01:26,940 --> 00:01:31,290 since the sort of mid like, 2013, 2014 37 00:01:31,290 --> 00:01:32,970 for expansion of access 38 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:37,230 to public lands for backcountry ski zones. 39 00:01:37,230 --> 00:01:40,920 So there's a series of both national 40 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,560 and local headlines about it, 41 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,330 including the New York Times and Powder. 42 00:01:45,330 --> 00:01:48,483 Our National Seven Days and Vermont Sports are local. 43 00:01:49,470 --> 00:01:51,510 And then I also highlighted this, 44 00:01:51,510 --> 00:01:53,670 backcountry ski sales boom is upon us, 45 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:57,090 which is from an Outside magazine in 2022 46 00:01:57,090 --> 00:02:01,140 because as you all know, in 2020, 47 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:04,620 everyone got really into like outdoor rec 48 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:06,330 and bought up all the bikes and all the skis 49 00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:08,610 and that continues and is putting pressure 50 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:11,010 on our forested landscape 51 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:14,493 as folks wanna get out into the forest rec. 52 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:16,590 So this is sort of the why. 53 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:18,660 It's like we were facing pressure 54 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:20,970 and we needed to have a really great answer 55 00:02:20,970 --> 00:02:22,530 to that pressure. 56 00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:25,413 And also just if you didn't know this, 57 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:30,480 the recreation economy is actually part of the national GDP 58 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,240 and at this point in time, this is from this year, 59 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,890 the outdoor rec now contributes more 60 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:37,500 than a trillion dollars to the US economy. 61 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:40,080 So if you're out there thinking like, "How can I help? 62 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,240 I hear a lot about needs," you know, 63 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,790 there might be some money out here to do research 64 00:02:44,790 --> 00:02:47,820 or fund a grad student or something related to rec 65 00:02:47,820 --> 00:02:51,183 because a trillion dollars, that's a big number. 66 00:02:53,130 --> 00:02:53,963 So yeah. 67 00:02:55,170 --> 00:02:57,180 [Luke] So part of this, the theme 68 00:02:57,180 --> 00:02:59,310 of this presentation is finding a common language 69 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:01,890 and with the growth of backcountry skiing, 70 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:04,140 but recreation in general puts a lot 71 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:05,400 of pressure on our public lands, 72 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,580 but also our private lands from various interest groups. 73 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:11,190 And so in the backcountry skiing community, 74 00:03:11,190 --> 00:03:14,160 there was increased demand on state forest state parks, 75 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,910 but also in the national forest here in the green mountains. 76 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:20,910 And you can imagine that folks in the skiing community 77 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:24,480 and land managers aren't necessarily thinking the same way 78 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,160 or have the same goals. 79 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,520 In fact, they're often not speaking the same language. 80 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:30,930 So what we did, 81 00:03:30,930 --> 00:03:33,690 or what one of our intents of this handbook was 82 00:03:33,690 --> 00:03:34,980 to create a common language 83 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:37,590 that folks, in the backcountry skiing community, 84 00:03:37,590 --> 00:03:41,040 could better understand what our forest management goals are 85 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,680 on public lands, but also private lands, 86 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,040 and at the same time help land managers better understand, 87 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,330 what are the motivating factors 88 00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:50,433 behind the backcountry skiing community. 89 00:03:52,110 --> 00:03:54,090 We did that as we said, in partnership 90 00:03:54,090 --> 00:03:56,340 with Cattle Mount Trail Association, 91 00:03:56,340 --> 00:03:59,373 the US Forest Service and Fish And Wildlife. 92 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,410 So we identified a lot of different needs 93 00:04:04,410 --> 00:04:07,110 and we pulled together resources from a bunch 94 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:09,573 of different areas and partners. 95 00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:12,810 And so the handbook includes an overview 96 00:04:12,810 --> 00:04:15,753 of backcountry skiing and skiing in general. 97 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:20,490 It addresses natural resource and social considerations. 98 00:04:20,490 --> 00:04:22,710 Where are people going? Why are they going there? 99 00:04:22,710 --> 00:04:26,880 How will that inform the management of certain lands? 100 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,190 We do talk about how to create partnerships 101 00:04:29,190 --> 00:04:32,160 because in the public land manager world, 102 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,810 we certainly prefer to work 103 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:35,370 with organized groups rather 104 00:04:35,370 --> 00:04:37,470 than individuals who are out there, 105 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:40,260 making requests to use our lands. 106 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:42,990 There is a backcountry ski zone approval process. 107 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:47,490 So it outlines the steps by which groups can explore 108 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:49,920 and propose and hopefully get approval 109 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,100 for establishing backcountry ski zones. 110 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:55,200 We talked about implementation and construction, the nuts 111 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,200 and bolts of how you put that on the ground as well 112 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:59,850 as safety and risk management, 113 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,360 maintaining it over the long term, monitoring 114 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,910 and then other issues like overnight use, dogs 115 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:07,473 and other considerations. 116 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:11,463 Dogs. (chuckles) 117 00:05:12,375 --> 00:05:13,920 [Kathryn] And so we'll just highlight some 118 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,413 of the natural resource considerations. 119 00:05:17,310 --> 00:05:20,820 So we had general considerations which, you know, 120 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:22,050 we had set up really well 121 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:24,360 with all the keynote talking about sort of regional 122 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,100 and statewide thinking. 123 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:29,040 So we do cover that with the ecological context, 124 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,240 landscape scale thinking as well as natural communities. 125 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,270 So we highlight these as things that land managers 126 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:37,980 and landowners are gonna be thinking about. 127 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:40,560 If you're a skier and you wanna talk to them, 128 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,720 you gotta think like, oh these are things. 129 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,970 Then we dig down into the forest stand level 130 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:46,980 which will probably be affecting your actual, 131 00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:50,670 backcountry ski zone, like what you're seeing on the ground. 132 00:05:50,670 --> 00:05:53,250 And we do highlight issues around wildlife 133 00:05:53,250 --> 00:05:56,160 and recreation, which includes flight response, 134 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,770 change in habitat and forage use and vigilance. 135 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:00,240 And one of the things I really love 136 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,740 about how we approach this is we really tried to weave in 137 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:08,100 throughout the text, how the skiing, itself, 138 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:12,443 is gonna be affecting these ecological considerations. 139 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:15,090 We weren't just talking broadly 140 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:18,060 and then making you guess how they were gonna connect. 141 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:20,370 We also highlighted some special considerations, 142 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:22,290 like rare threatened, endangered species, 143 00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:24,210 important wildlife habitats, 144 00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:27,330 riparian areas, state and federal designations, 145 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:29,850 and then unauthorized cutting. 146 00:06:29,850 --> 00:06:31,380 If you're out there and you're like, 147 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:36,030 my special consideration is not on this list, that's okay. 148 00:06:36,030 --> 00:06:37,740 You can't cover everything in one book. 149 00:06:37,740 --> 00:06:41,910 We have a call out box at the very beginning of the document 150 00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:44,760 that highlights that this document isn't intended 151 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,810 to cover the special considerations of every single parcel, 152 00:06:48,810 --> 00:06:50,610 but we are trying to generally get things 153 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:52,743 that will likely affect most parcels. 154 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:59,540 And yes, sorry, looking at the slide back. Now to delete. 155 00:07:01,265 --> 00:07:03,420 [Luke] So one of the things 156 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:06,900 that the guide does is it creates this detailed guidance 157 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:08,910 for delineating a ski zone. 158 00:07:08,910 --> 00:07:11,040 So key amongst that is, you know, 159 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,840 understanding what the user group interests are, 160 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,090 but also the landowner goals. 161 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:16,410 In Vermont there are actually very few 162 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:20,970 of these designated ski zones on a federal, state 163 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:22,740 and private lands 164 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:25,560 and each has slightly different goals in mind. 165 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,140 So identifying your target audience, how 166 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:31,380 that might dictate what terrain you're gonna be working in, 167 00:07:31,380 --> 00:07:33,420 whether it's very steep for advanced skiers 168 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:37,470 or lower angle skiing for beginners, 169 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:40,110 or also maybe mixing in some touring elements 170 00:07:40,110 --> 00:07:42,090 where it's up and down skiing. 171 00:07:42,090 --> 00:07:45,120 It's not all just downhill skiing the trees. 172 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,850 Doing a lot of site reconnaissance, making sure 173 00:07:47,850 --> 00:07:50,460 that you do your due diligence to know 174 00:07:50,460 --> 00:07:52,410 that you are in the right area 175 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:56,640 and if not, where might be a better spot to develop 176 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,760 or propose a backcountry ski zone. 177 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,540 You do that often by determining control points, both things 178 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:06,300 that you want to highlight 179 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:08,700 or incorporate into the ski zone 180 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:10,290 and then things that you may want to avoid. 181 00:08:10,290 --> 00:08:13,620 And by incorporating those control points, 182 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:16,050 you can kind of connect the dots 183 00:08:16,050 --> 00:08:20,490 and figure out where best to locate your ski zone 184 00:08:20,490 --> 00:08:23,190 in a way that minimizes ecological impacts 185 00:08:23,190 --> 00:08:26,340 and perhaps reduce conflicts 186 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:28,203 with forest management or wildlife. 187 00:08:29,070 --> 00:08:32,370 And so as we identify these backcountry ski zones, 188 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:34,350 we're really looking at a few things. 189 00:08:34,350 --> 00:08:38,820 Vegetation islands is what remains in 190 00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:42,420 and around your skiable line, the actual skiable lines, 191 00:08:42,420 --> 00:08:44,640 the trails that people are gonna be skiing on 192 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,370 and then often skin tracks which is an uphill travel trail, 193 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:49,953 what gets you to the top of the slope. 194 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:55,200 Here's an example of a backcountry ski zone. 195 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,430 This is at Willoughby State Forest in Westmore and Sutton 196 00:08:59,430 --> 00:09:02,130 and you can see that within this entire zone, 197 00:09:02,130 --> 00:09:07,130 there are really three groups of backcountry ski trails, 198 00:09:07,530 --> 00:09:11,010 connected by a red network of skin tracks 199 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:14,550 and then the blue lines is Nordic trail networks. 200 00:09:14,550 --> 00:09:18,870 So this site was determined to be a good spot 201 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:20,490 for backcountry implementation 202 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:23,970 because you already had an existing winter trail network 203 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:24,803 on site. 204 00:09:28,650 --> 00:09:30,840 [Kathryn] So Luke touched on this in the last slide, 205 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,760 which is this vegetation island. 206 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,410 And so this is really where we're getting 207 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:38,250 that forest management into it, like embedding it 208 00:09:38,250 --> 00:09:43,250 into the skiable into the ski zone. 209 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,620 So what the vegetation islands provide, 210 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:50,070 and we go into more detail in the book about like, 211 00:09:50,070 --> 00:09:52,770 how large they should be, et cetera, but this is 212 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:55,830 where you can practice your civil cultural goals. 213 00:09:55,830 --> 00:09:57,480 As far as thinking of what your goals are 214 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,920 for the forest matrix, 215 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,160 the vegetation islands give you this opportunity 216 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,530 to help maintain forest structure 217 00:10:04,530 --> 00:10:09,120 and diversity by choosing certain like species 218 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,010 that you want, size. 219 00:10:11,010 --> 00:10:15,000 If you wanna ensure that a steep or a cliffy area 220 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,490 or other sorts of targets 221 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:19,380 for your management plan are captured, 222 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:22,110 you can capture them in these vegetation islands 223 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:25,740 and they can also act as areas 224 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:30,740 where you can keep seed trees for the future of the forest. 225 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:34,830 The other thing is they provide challenging 226 00:10:34,830 --> 00:10:37,890 and diverse ski terrain, like you're skiing in the woods 227 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:39,570 'cause you want an adventure 228 00:10:39,570 --> 00:10:41,640 and kind of something surprising. 229 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,280 And so that's the most exciting part to me. 230 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,650 A little handshake emoji if you guys can't tell, 231 00:10:46,650 --> 00:10:47,940 is the identifying 232 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:50,235 and laying out the vegetation islands is done 233 00:10:50,235 --> 00:10:52,440 in conjunction. 234 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,990 So it's the skiers are out there 235 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:58,680 with the landowners making these decisions. 236 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:02,160 And by that I mean when the landowners say like, 237 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,770 no you can't, this is where we want the vegetation island, 238 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:08,070 there's a great conversation about why that's happening. 239 00:11:08,070 --> 00:11:12,690 And so this is a key to maintaining long-term forest health 240 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:14,250 as well as making sure 241 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:16,680 that the skiers are still getting what they want 242 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,590 because that means that they'll actually use the areas 243 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:21,870 where you want them to ski. 244 00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:25,080 So the vegetation islands are really crucial 245 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,950 and were mainly developed by the US Forest Service 246 00:11:28,950 --> 00:11:31,290 for their brand and gap project. 247 00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:33,940 There's a whole NEPA review if you wanna read it, so. 248 00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:40,530 [Luke] Yeah so all of this is really for the purpose 249 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:42,570 of preventing, you know, folks going out 250 00:11:42,570 --> 00:11:45,660 and cutting their own ski lines wherever they would like. 251 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:47,910 So it's really a cooperative approach. 252 00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:49,560 I'm gonna drill down a little bit 253 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:52,290 into the Willoughby guidance, which is adapted 254 00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:55,620 from guidance developed by the US Forest Service 255 00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:57,720 in Brandon Gap. 256 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,960 But we have a flagging specification so you can determine 257 00:12:03,150 --> 00:12:05,310 when you identify a ski line, 258 00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:07,950 you're marking the left side with orange, 259 00:12:07,950 --> 00:12:09,540 the right side with pink. 260 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:13,200 Your vegetation islands or trees 261 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,600 that you wanna retain are marked in blue so 262 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,180 that when your volunteers are on the ground, 263 00:12:18,180 --> 00:12:20,160 they're staying inbounds in the spot 264 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,220 where you want them, protecting that matrix forest 265 00:12:23,220 --> 00:12:27,360 or representative forest consistent 266 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,070 with the other management goals. 267 00:12:29,070 --> 00:12:31,953 Blowdowns and slash all stay on site. 268 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,330 So we are trying to maintain structural diversity 269 00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:38,850 on the forest floor and in the lower canopy 270 00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:42,510 so down trees are left so long as they're not a hazard 271 00:12:42,510 --> 00:12:45,210 and slash is scattered within those islands 272 00:12:45,210 --> 00:12:48,690 or just broken down and left on the ground. 273 00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:51,210 Often the slash is also used 274 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:53,760 to even out undulations in the terrain 275 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,340 or hazards if there's a rock or a stomp 276 00:12:56,340 --> 00:12:58,950 or some other obstacle or safety issue. 277 00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:02,610 There's guidance for cutting trees properly, 278 00:13:02,610 --> 00:13:05,850 low to the ground, no punchy sticks, 279 00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:10,740 proper trimming of limbs. 280 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:14,400 And again in Willoughby, we determined 281 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,730 that we really wanted to support the preservation 282 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:22,380 of red spruce, hemlock, yellow birch, mountain ash 283 00:13:22,380 --> 00:13:24,900 and most mature trees over eight inches. 284 00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:25,733 Thank you. 285 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,240 Not that we wouldn't cut those species, 286 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,240 but we would prefer to have those remain on the landscape 287 00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:37,620 and instead we focused on allowing cutting 288 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:42,270 of hobble bush, dead wood, potentially hazardous trees, 289 00:13:42,270 --> 00:13:44,100 trees that might have poorly formed stems 290 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:47,670 or signs of disease, competing hardwood poles 291 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:49,140 where you could select for the healthier, 292 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:52,860 more vigorous specimens, 293 00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:56,790 and generally not cutting things below one meter in height, 294 00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:59,910 assuming that your snow pack is gonna cover up most of that 295 00:13:59,910 --> 00:14:01,593 in the midst of winter. 296 00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:05,040 [Kathryn] And again, those are ways you can think 297 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,680 about your self cultural goals or your management goals 298 00:14:10,588 --> 00:14:12,810 by what Luke just highlighted, which is very exciting. 299 00:14:12,810 --> 00:14:14,280 [Luke] And some of these are universal 300 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,870 and then others are gonna be very specific 301 00:14:15,870 --> 00:14:18,270 to your particular management goals in terms 302 00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:20,880 of which species you retain that are removed. 303 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,460 [Kathryn] And then monitoring will be pretty quick. 304 00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:24,810 We need help with this. 305 00:14:24,810 --> 00:14:28,350 We outlined monitoring as a goal when you're doing these. 306 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:33,350 We provided examples of long-term data as well 307 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:36,870 as user data 'cause there's obviously a social component 308 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,990 to recreation and we suggested partners 309 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:42,660 that groups can reach out to such as universities 310 00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:45,270 to support monitoring projects. 311 00:14:45,270 --> 00:14:47,070 But I thought this is sort of a pitch, 312 00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:49,380 like if you're ever thinking, oh man, I can't think 313 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:52,710 of a project, you know, I identified a trillion dollars 314 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:56,490 for rec economy and there's monitoring and people, 315 00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:59,610 we definitely need help making this a little more robust 316 00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:02,130 and getting some good tools so 317 00:15:02,130 --> 00:15:05,850 that we can be doing the best work that we can, 318 00:15:05,850 --> 00:15:09,960 especially since because it does crossover into private land 319 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,340 and also public land, municipalities, town forests, any sort 320 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:16,920 of toolkit, et cetera that you can really make that sort 321 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,440 of like, this would be a good monitoring program 322 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:20,940 if you have citizen scientists 323 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:24,570 versus a full-time employee who's able to do it. 324 00:15:24,570 --> 00:15:27,480 And that's all we have for you today, so thank you. 325 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,940 And we have... (audio distortion) 326 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:36,540 [Luke] Awesome. 327 00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:40,230 So we got five minutes for questions. Yeah. 328 00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:42,227 [Attendant] How close do you think like, 329 00:15:42,227 --> 00:15:44,310 FPR is gonna be able to keep up 330 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:48,990 with demand for increased speech rails in the backcountry 331 00:15:48,990 --> 00:15:51,630 with like, what's actively being done on, you know, 332 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:54,870 like allowable management of ski trails 333 00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:56,720 in the state of Florida (indistinct)? 334 00:15:57,690 --> 00:15:59,010 [Kathryn] It's like an interesting question 335 00:15:59,010 --> 00:16:03,540 because generally just backcountry skiing is viewed 336 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:05,760 as a dispersed use. 337 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,370 And so if you're in the woods just skiing, it's sort 338 00:16:08,370 --> 00:16:10,230 of like if you were just walking. 339 00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:14,670 And the main goal around this is really focusing people, 340 00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:18,750 you're not allowed to cut any trees. 341 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:23,020 So we are hoping that the creation 342 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:27,360 of at least a handful of locations will sort of get a lot 343 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,450 of people who maybe aren't just interested in kind of poking 344 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:35,160 around without cutting to focus on a handful of areas 345 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,950 where they'll be satisfied with access. 346 00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:39,510 And then, you know, people 347 00:16:39,510 --> 00:16:41,460 who are interested in just exploring, you know, 348 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:44,280 they still have the opportunity to do that. 349 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:45,750 [Luke] I would just add to that that, you know, 350 00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:48,930 we have long range management plans on some of our parcels, 351 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:50,220 but not all of them. 352 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:53,580 So in some cases we may not be able 353 00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:57,510 to implement a sanctioned backcountry ski zone there. 354 00:16:57,510 --> 00:16:59,913 We know that there's backcountry skiing at J, 355 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,450 in the Bolton area, you know, 356 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:05,340 and there's other hot spots throughout the state 357 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:07,920 and some of those trails on Mount Mansfield have been 358 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,540 around since the 1930s. 359 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:14,160 So there's these legacy areas where we do monitor them 360 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,160 but, you know, we hope to at some point in time bring them 361 00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:21,870 above board and work with partner organizations. 362 00:17:21,870 --> 00:17:23,790 The Cavanaugh trail's been fantastic. 363 00:17:23,790 --> 00:17:27,840 They have a chapter system and they are a, you know, 364 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,530 really valuable partner in educating their user groups 365 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:33,240 to hopefully bring them into the fold 366 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,880 and to at least apply this guidance 367 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,060 or work with us where we can. 368 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:40,583 [Kathryn] There's also a cool emergence, 369 00:17:40,583 --> 00:17:41,490 I don't know if you guys follow this 370 00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:43,260 but like, oh sorry, there's a question back there, 371 00:17:43,260 --> 00:17:45,240 but there's also a cool emergence of like, 372 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,030 rediscovering old small ski resorts. 373 00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:50,940 A really good example that's happened at Dutch Hill 374 00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:53,550 down south as well as Eskutenee. 375 00:17:53,550 --> 00:17:56,580 And those are really great ways to sort of channel energy 376 00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:58,770 around this because a lot 377 00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:01,950 of those areas still have visible footprints 378 00:18:01,950 --> 00:18:04,440 of the previous ski resorts 379 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,720 and are serving that same community. 380 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,070 [Attendant 2] Could you put up your title page 381 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:09,303 or your start page? 382 00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:12,930 [Kathryn] Oh, can I put it up? Sure. 383 00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:15,540 I have to go back through, so do you have a question? 384 00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:16,740 Or there's a question back there. 385 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:19,170 [Attendant 3] Yeah I just have a question about sort 386 00:18:19,170 --> 00:18:21,240 of like, the reach of this plan. 387 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,230 I love the call. 388 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:23,880 [Kathryn] It's not a plan. 389 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,813 [Attendant 3] Sorry. (laughs) 390 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:29,550 I love this concept of creating a common language, 391 00:18:29,550 --> 00:18:30,690 but I was sort of wondering 392 00:18:30,690 --> 00:18:34,770 about how it's gonna reach the individuals 393 00:18:34,770 --> 00:18:37,320 that aren't necessarily associated with a group 394 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,900 that this handbook is being dispersed to, 395 00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:43,200 'cause there's sort of this cultural element around 396 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,870 where people go to backcountry ski where people sort 397 00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:48,780 of feel like they've gotten like this sort 398 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:53,550 of spiritual tie, like this sense of ownership over areas 399 00:18:53,550 --> 00:18:54,840 where they are doing some cutting. 400 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,220 And like a lot of that illegal cutting, 401 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,350 you see people have like this like sense of pride like, 402 00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:00,090 oh this is my line. 403 00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:02,940 So like how is this handbook gonna reach people like that, 404 00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:06,120 like get an understanding of like, yes, 405 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,070 this is an important cultural activity for you 406 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:11,310 but it needs to be a part of this wider conversation? 407 00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:12,630 [Kathryn] Yeah so, you know, 408 00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:13,920 it's a bell curve thing, right? 409 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,670 We all know how a bell curve works. 410 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:18,600 And what we're really trying to get 411 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,900 with this Vermont Backcountry Ski Handbook is, 412 00:19:22,123 --> 00:19:23,730 we're trying to get most of the people 413 00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:26,880 to understand like, this is how we want you to act 414 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,210 and go through this process and please respect this. 415 00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:31,310 And then through that, 416 00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:36,540 we worked really closely with (indistinct) in hopes 417 00:19:36,540 --> 00:19:40,860 that having buy-in from the user group from the beginning, 418 00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:44,730 what helped diffuse the information through the community 419 00:19:44,730 --> 00:19:49,110 and really stress that like, this is bigger than you 420 00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:53,490 and your individual actions are having sort 421 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:56,500 of this global, global being like not global, 422 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,433 and, you know, global in that sense of the word, 423 00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:03,180 a global impact on the forest. 424 00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:08,040 So I would say that those people might never read it, 425 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,890 but, you know, we're hoping to use just, 426 00:20:10,890 --> 00:20:13,770 there's a technical term for it which I cannot think of 427 00:20:13,770 --> 00:20:16,650 but it's related to like, peer-to-peer communication. 428 00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:19,290 So we're really hoping that this helps with that. 429 00:20:19,290 --> 00:20:20,123 We've been presenting. 430 00:20:20,123 --> 00:20:22,530 We've presented at the Backcountry Ski Forum, 431 00:20:22,530 --> 00:20:24,810 down in Randolph? 432 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:25,800 -[Luke] Rochester. -[Kathryn] Rochester. 433 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,770 I knew I was gonna get it wrong, Rochester. 434 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:31,650 And they're sort of a beating heart of this right now. 435 00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:34,440 Luke's presented for the NEK Backcountry Ski. 436 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,970 We're presenting here, we're trying 437 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:37,590 to present at Catamount, 438 00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:39,930 presented at something out in Colorado. 439 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:42,807 So yeah, that's it. 440 00:20:42,807 --> 00:20:43,650 [Luke] And I would just add 441 00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:45,390 that this is hot off the presses. 442 00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:46,770 This a very limited print run, 443 00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:49,410 but it is on the FPR website. 444 00:20:49,410 --> 00:20:51,870 It's on the Catamount Trail website. 445 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:52,980 [Kathryn] It's on the Forest Service website. 446 00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:54,870 [Luke] This is a first of its kind 447 00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:57,630 and I think we would be honored if somebody else 448 00:20:57,630 --> 00:21:00,030 or some other group picked this up and made it better, 449 00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:02,520 but we got the ball rolling. 450 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,800 I think this is a move in the right direction 451 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,773 and hopefully it gets applied elsewhere. 452 00:21:08,370 --> 00:21:10,740 [Kathryn] Yes. Oh, did you see your picture? 453 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:12,890 [Attendant 4] No. Was there one up there? 454 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,037 [Kathryn] You're in it. 455 00:21:16,037 --> 00:21:17,645 [Attendant 4] Oh, thank you for this work. 456 00:21:17,645 --> 00:21:20,395 Super important and thank you for communicating it too. 457 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:23,190 I have two questions 458 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:26,507 that are maybe just one overarching theme which is, 459 00:21:26,507 --> 00:21:31,290 how to talk about and communicate about sensitive areas, 460 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:34,470 one of which I can think of seeing an Instagram reel 461 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:36,660 from November of somebody skiing 462 00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:39,840 off Mansfield Alpine barely covered. 463 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,940 [Kathryn] We talk, oh sorry. Keep going. 464 00:21:41,940 --> 00:21:43,050 [Attendant 4] And then the second area 465 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:44,610 of sensitivity is areas 466 00:21:44,610 --> 00:21:46,620 where there's ongoing long-term research 467 00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:50,880 that maybe folks aren't aware of and maybe skiing through it 468 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,693 and affecting the data that gets collected. 469 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,370 [Kathryn] Yeah so there is a section in the book 470 00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:00,840 that is basically like, don't ski 471 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,880 on Mansfield during that time. 472 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,500 We don't say Mansfield specifically, 473 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:08,730 but we highlight when the best times are, just, 474 00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:13,170 if you're gonna ski on Alpine, do it during X, Y and Z 475 00:22:13,170 --> 00:22:14,400 and we described snow pack. 476 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,830 That's like the best time to ski there 477 00:22:16,830 --> 00:22:18,720 'cause Bob Zino, the state ecologist, 478 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,190 well he's changed the position 479 00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:22,260 but he was on the working group 480 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:25,950 that helped write the guidelines, 481 00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:27,870 all the ecological guidelines. 482 00:22:27,870 --> 00:22:30,933 And then, well, you know, 483 00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:35,190 I'm trying to get funding this year, but I think part 484 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:38,430 of the research aspect will be just highlight, like, 485 00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:41,910 I don't think people even know how much research is going on 486 00:22:41,910 --> 00:22:42,761 in the woods. 487 00:22:42,761 --> 00:22:43,594 [Luke] Right. Right, yep. 488 00:22:43,594 --> 00:22:45,180 [Kathryn] And FPR finally, 489 00:22:45,180 --> 00:22:47,400 we have a forestry recommunications person 490 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,150 who's really interested in doing more work around this. 491 00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:55,170 So hopefully part of that will just be better communication 492 00:22:55,170 --> 00:22:56,760 to the public broadly 493 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,890 that there is research happening in the woods 494 00:22:58,890 --> 00:23:00,030 and you might not see it 495 00:23:00,030 --> 00:23:02,250 and your actions in the woods, no matter what they are, 496 00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:05,430 whether it's skiing or setting up your bootleg camp site 497 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:08,910 or like what all of those might be intersecting. 498 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:12,270 So when we say don't camp here, it's not 499 00:23:12,270 --> 00:23:13,380 'cause we're trying to be mean. 500 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:16,280 It's because a bunch of things are happening in the woods. 501 00:23:17,610 --> 00:23:20,790 So again, you know, we're not gonna have wardens 502 00:23:20,790 --> 00:23:23,130 out there like, stopping people 503 00:23:23,130 --> 00:23:24,330 'cause we don't have that capacity, 504 00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:26,493 but we're really ramping up our education. 505 00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:29,190 [Luke] t's honestly not much different 506 00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:30,630 than hiking in the alpine zone 507 00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:32,700 and it just takes time to educate people. 508 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,660 And this is still, I think, a new and emerging trend. 509 00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:40,140 It is increasing. It's best management practices. 510 00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:41,670 Not everyone's gonna follow 'em, 511 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:44,400 but we're putting 'em out there to be, you know, 512 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,233 [Kathryn] Yeah. 513 00:23:45,233 --> 00:23:46,200 [Luke] Explored and understood 514 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,400 and hopefully improved upon over time 515 00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:52,200 so that people who are interested in learning more about it 516 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,903 or sharing it with their colleagues can do that. 517 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:57,893 [Attendant 4] Thanks. 518 00:23:57,893 --> 00:23:58,726 [Luke] Thank you, there.