1
00:00:01,384 --> 00:00:02,560
- Okay. Hi, everybody.

2
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,760
Welcome to Integrated Parasite Management

3
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:05,913
for Small Ruminants.

4
00:00:07,293 --> 00:00:08,273
I'm Betsy Hodge.

5
00:00:08,273 --> 00:00:09,330
I work at Cornell Cooperative Extension

6
00:00:09,330 --> 00:00:12,660
in St. Lawrence County,
and I'm going to start

7
00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:15,086
with a little bit of Zoom etiquette

8
00:00:15,086 --> 00:00:17,150
and then go to the parasite PowerPoint.

9
00:00:21,277 --> 00:00:25,910
So it's being recorded
tonight, and it's ideal for us

10
00:00:25,910 --> 00:00:28,283
if you keep yourself
muted during the talks.

11
00:00:29,568 --> 00:00:31,653
Put your questions in
chat or raise your hand,

12
00:00:31,653 --> 00:00:34,158
and somebody will get to you.

13
00:00:34,158 --> 00:00:34,991
If you put 'em in chat,

14
00:00:36,024 --> 00:00:36,857
it helps 'cause we got a couple people

15
00:00:36,857 --> 00:00:39,530
like Tatiana and Kelsey
that can monitor the chat

16
00:00:39,530 --> 00:00:42,223
and answer the questions
or stop the speaker.

17
00:00:43,611 --> 00:00:46,751
And it'd probably work best
if you use speaker view,

18
00:00:46,751 --> 00:00:49,313
which if you go, I can
have a little picture here.

19
00:00:50,822 --> 00:00:53,070
Yeah, if you go up in your
upper right-hand corner

20
00:00:54,653 --> 00:00:58,690
under view, click on what this
says, speaker view, middle.

21
00:00:59,915 --> 00:01:03,056
That means that you'll have the
big picture most of the time

22
00:01:03,056 --> 00:01:05,193
and the rest of the people
will be little on the side.

23
00:01:08,646 --> 00:01:10,065
And ideally, keep yourself muted.

24
00:01:10,065 --> 00:01:11,673
The little mute looks like a microphone,

25
00:01:12,512 --> 00:01:14,813
and it's normally down in
the lower left-hand corner,

26
00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:18,435
and also your video is
there, and I don't know.

27
00:01:18,435 --> 00:01:20,576
If your Internet's good enough,
you can keep your video on,

28
00:01:20,576 --> 00:01:22,333
(laughs) if not, probably not.

29
00:01:23,466 --> 00:01:25,351
Questions ideally would go in the chat.

30
00:01:25,351 --> 00:01:27,461
If you click on chat, it opens up,

31
00:01:27,461 --> 00:01:29,563
and you can type in your
questions, and we can all see them.

32
00:01:32,070 --> 00:01:34,683
You can also try raising
your hand under reactions.

33
00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:40,273
Okay, let me stop sharing that.

34
00:01:42,066 --> 00:01:45,003
(clears throat) Excuse me.
I gotta find my PowerPoint.

35
00:01:56,444 --> 00:01:59,111
And we'll get in slideshow here.

36
00:02:00,756 --> 00:02:01,589
There we go.

37
00:02:01,589 --> 00:02:05,643
So we'll begin with Parasite
Management for Small Ruminants,

38
00:02:05,643 --> 00:02:08,080
and I'm gonna do part,
and Tatiana Stanton,

39
00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,900
also from Cornell University,
is going to join in,

40
00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:14,783
and give yourself a little
introduction then, too, Tat.

41
00:02:16,333 --> 00:02:18,310
So there's a lot of great
pictures in here and there slides

42
00:02:18,310 --> 00:02:19,660
from a lot of different people

43
00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:21,120
that have done parasite talks,

44
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,143
and we just wanna recognize them here.

45
00:02:28,907 --> 00:02:31,470
So we're gonna talk
tonight about parasites

46
00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:33,163
in sheep and goats,

47
00:02:34,092 --> 00:02:38,975
and we're in a great area
for raising sheep and goats.

48
00:02:38,975 --> 00:02:41,417
We have a lot of grass and forages,

49
00:02:41,417 --> 00:02:42,760
but we also have a lot of parasites

50
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,119
because we have moisture
and we have warm summers,

51
00:02:47,119 --> 00:02:48,420
and it becomes a major challenge

52
00:02:48,420 --> 00:02:50,393
if you're a pasture-based operation.

53
00:02:52,166 --> 00:02:54,753
And most of us really like
to use pasture if we can,

54
00:02:57,660 --> 00:02:59,420
and so we need to learn to control

55
00:02:59,420 --> 00:03:01,043
and manage these parasites.

56
00:03:02,748 --> 00:03:04,451
So we're gonna talk about
what is the problem,

57
00:03:04,451 --> 00:03:06,858
and this is actually a
video I'm gonna click here

58
00:03:06,858 --> 00:03:08,443
so you can see it.

59
00:03:08,443 --> 00:03:09,693
Hopefully you didn't just eat dinner.

60
00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:16,910
So there's actually little worms on here.

61
00:03:16,910 --> 00:03:19,260
See if we can get one.
There's one right there.

62
00:03:21,798 --> 00:03:24,122
Yep, those are Haemonchus contortus.

63
00:03:24,122 --> 00:03:25,423
We're gonna talk about those in a minute.

64
00:03:26,672 --> 00:03:27,505
It's a great video.

65
00:03:31,464 --> 00:03:33,131
There's another one.

66
00:03:35,363 --> 00:03:37,771
So we're gonna talk about stomach worms,

67
00:03:37,771 --> 00:03:40,100
and this is what we're looking for

68
00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:41,693
when we do a fecal egg count,

69
00:03:43,399 --> 00:03:47,098
and those ones that are
circled are all very similar.

70
00:03:47,098 --> 00:03:49,553
You really can't tell them
apart under the microscope.

71
00:03:50,481 --> 00:03:53,386
So chances are you have
more than one kind anyways,

72
00:03:53,386 --> 00:03:56,883
but this one over here that's,
let me get my pointer back.

73
00:03:59,953 --> 00:04:02,116
This one is the Haemonchus contortus

74
00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:05,172
or the barber pole worm,
and as you can see,

75
00:04:05,172 --> 00:04:06,005
it looks very similar to the others.

76
00:04:06,005 --> 00:04:07,230
This one's a little bit bigger,

77
00:04:08,165 --> 00:04:09,723
but otherwise, they look
pretty much the same.

78
00:04:14,822 --> 00:04:16,122
So gastrointestinal worms,

79
00:04:17,021 --> 00:04:18,603
most of them have a direct life cycle.

80
00:04:19,540 --> 00:04:22,834
The eggs hatch in the manure
of an infected sheep or goat.

81
00:04:22,834 --> 00:04:25,684
The larvae goes through a few
malts right on your pasture

82
00:04:26,658 --> 00:04:28,312
and then becomes infected larvae,

83
00:04:28,312 --> 00:04:30,473
which is in turn eaten by a goat or sheep,

84
00:04:31,495 --> 00:04:34,232
and then that is inside
them, and when that matures,

85
00:04:34,232 --> 00:04:35,470
it breeds and produces eggs,

86
00:04:35,470 --> 00:04:38,463
which are then shed out
onto the pasture again.

87
00:04:39,984 --> 00:04:41,279
So it's a direct life cycle.

88
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,870
There's no snails or insects or dogs

89
00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:45,570
or cats or anything in the middle,

90
00:04:47,724 --> 00:04:50,363
just directly from the
pasture to the animal.

91
00:04:52,093 --> 00:04:56,129
And they can tolerate cold temperatures,

92
00:04:56,129 --> 00:04:58,953
and some of them even over
winter on pasture in some places,

93
00:05:00,178 --> 00:05:02,478
and it tends to be a
pasture barnyard problem,

94
00:05:03,325 --> 00:05:04,158
especially if your pasture is small

95
00:05:04,158 --> 00:05:07,033
and they're regrazing
over areas they've been,

96
00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:10,117
and if there's moisture there,

97
00:05:10,117 --> 00:05:12,270
that seems to really keep it going.

98
00:05:12,270 --> 00:05:14,200
There's not too many
picked up in the barn.

99
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,845
Your animals aren't necessarily
eating off the ground there.

100
00:05:17,845 --> 00:05:19,568
Hopefully they're eating out of a feeder,

101
00:05:19,568 --> 00:05:20,512
and the ammonia gas

102
00:05:20,512 --> 00:05:23,162
from the bedded pack helps
discourage their survival.

103
00:05:28,895 --> 00:05:31,483
Sorry, it's a little tricky to
find the little arrow. There.

104
00:05:31,483 --> 00:05:34,388
So Haemonchus contortus
or the barber pole worm,

105
00:05:34,388 --> 00:05:35,961
it's a blood-sucking parasite

106
00:05:35,961 --> 00:05:38,012
that pierces the mucosa of the abomasum.

107
00:05:38,012 --> 00:05:41,825
That's that true stomach that's
part of the ruminant system,

108
00:05:41,825 --> 00:05:44,710
and it causes blood
plasma and protein loss

109
00:05:45,745 --> 00:05:47,076
in the sheep or goat.

110
00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:47,909
And this is a barber pole,

111
00:05:47,909 --> 00:05:49,815
for those of you that are too young

112
00:05:49,815 --> 00:05:52,296
to remember what a barber pole looks like,

113
00:05:52,296 --> 00:05:53,846
and this is a barber pole worm.

114
00:05:54,902 --> 00:05:56,170
I think this is the female
that you can see the red

115
00:05:56,170 --> 00:06:00,853
and white colors on, pretty fancy looking.

116
00:06:02,134 --> 00:06:05,830
This is the mouth parts
that pierce the lining

117
00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:07,167
of the abomasum.

118
00:06:09,690 --> 00:06:12,680
Just give me a minute. I gotta
minimize my thumbnails here.

119
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,402
It's originally a parasite
of warmer climates,

120
00:06:15,402 --> 00:06:16,823
but it's spread to the Northeast.

121
00:06:17,846 --> 00:06:18,679
I don't know if that's
through climate change

122
00:06:18,679 --> 00:06:21,191
or because we moved
animals around too much

123
00:06:21,191 --> 00:06:22,323
and brought it along with them.

124
00:06:23,650 --> 00:06:26,703
Has a short generation time,
can be less than three weeks,

125
00:06:28,037 --> 00:06:28,960
and it's a heavy egg producer,

126
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,480
so it reproduces very quickly,

127
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,273
especially in the warm
damp months of the year.

128
00:06:35,157 --> 00:06:38,273
5,000 to 10,000 eggs each,

129
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,810
and multiply that by
all those having babies.

130
00:06:42,669 --> 00:06:45,832
So each worm can consume
0.05 MLs of blood,

131
00:06:45,832 --> 00:06:47,040
which doesn't sound like very much blood

132
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,223
till you multiply it
times all those worms,

133
00:06:50,627 --> 00:06:52,571
and a lamb can lose as much as 1/5

134
00:06:52,571 --> 00:06:54,583
of its blood volume in a day.

135
00:06:54,583 --> 00:06:57,376
You can imagine that makes
them not feel very well,

136
00:06:57,376 --> 00:06:59,626
and it can invest in
kilo host in four weeks.

137
00:07:01,060 --> 00:07:04,670
So the weird thing is you don't
see a lot of signs of this.

138
00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:06,470
You're looking at the sheep or goat,

139
00:07:07,366 --> 00:07:08,816
and they don't have diarrhea.

140
00:07:10,919 --> 00:07:12,310
They don't look sick.

141
00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:14,823
They aren't necessarily looking unthrifty.

142
00:07:14,823 --> 00:07:16,973
So how do we know? How
do we do about that?

143
00:07:20,224 --> 00:07:21,057
Okay, so the clinical signs

144
00:07:21,057 --> 00:07:22,340
of the barber pole worm infection

145
00:07:23,244 --> 00:07:24,742
are a little different
than you might expect.

146
00:07:24,742 --> 00:07:25,575
They're pretty subtle.

147
00:07:25,575 --> 00:07:26,730
An animal can look terrific

148
00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:28,580
and be dying of the barber pole worm,

149
00:07:29,507 --> 00:07:30,660
and I sometimes have people call my office

150
00:07:30,660 --> 00:07:33,850
and say they found an animal
dead and they were shocked,

151
00:07:33,850 --> 00:07:37,162
and often, if it's at
the right time of year,

152
00:07:37,162 --> 00:07:39,637
it's a good chance it
was a barber pole worm.

153
00:07:39,637 --> 00:07:43,330
The primary symptom is anemia,
and if you look at this,

154
00:07:43,330 --> 00:07:45,193
this is the eye of a sheep or goat,

155
00:07:46,056 --> 00:07:47,849
and they're pulling down the lower eyelid

156
00:07:47,849 --> 00:07:50,343
and looking at the mucosa right here,

157
00:07:51,322 --> 00:07:52,190
and that's white like a piece of paper,

158
00:07:52,190 --> 00:07:53,733
and it should be nice in pink,

159
00:07:55,028 --> 00:07:56,397
much like the inside of your own eye,

160
00:07:56,397 --> 00:07:57,323
if you look at it in the mirror.

161
00:07:58,226 --> 00:08:00,676
And so this is a very
anemic animal, very anemic.

162
00:08:02,095 --> 00:08:04,259
And they may also develop bottle jaw,

163
00:08:04,259 --> 00:08:08,750
which is this loose flap
of skin with very liquidy,

164
00:08:10,567 --> 00:08:11,604
it's a floppy thing.

165
00:08:11,604 --> 00:08:12,573
It's not a firm thing.

166
00:08:12,573 --> 00:08:16,960
It's like a floppy sac of
fluid under their chin,

167
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,893
and that's a result of the
fluid leaking from the blood

168
00:08:19,893 --> 00:08:22,178
and collecting between the mandibles.

169
00:08:22,178 --> 00:08:24,253
There are other things
that cause bottle jaw,

170
00:08:24,253 --> 00:08:25,723
but this is pretty classic.

171
00:08:31,008 --> 00:08:31,841
Let me just go back there.

172
00:08:35,241 --> 00:08:36,408
If I can get back.

173
00:08:36,408 --> 00:08:38,710
Anyways, the other sign sign
you sometimes see is an animal

174
00:08:38,710 --> 00:08:40,743
that's lagging behind the others,

175
00:08:45,318 --> 00:08:46,868
sign that they are very anemic.

176
00:08:48,096 --> 00:08:50,750
So let's talk about
the brown stomach worm.

177
00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:52,950
This used to be the considered
the most serious parasite

178
00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:54,923
of sheep and goats in cool climates.

179
00:08:56,311 --> 00:08:58,642
The worm develops in the
gastric glands of the stomach,

180
00:08:58,642 --> 00:09:01,790
the abomasum again, and destroys
the glands as they grow.

181
00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:03,610
And so that means they're not going

182
00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:06,669
to be able to utilize all their nutrients,

183
00:09:06,669 --> 00:09:09,075
their digestion is gonna be messed up,

184
00:09:09,075 --> 00:09:11,575
affects their appetite,
and they do have diarrhea,

185
00:09:12,569 --> 00:09:14,976
and they say they don't eat as well.

186
00:09:14,976 --> 00:09:16,269
They may have weight loss.

187
00:09:16,269 --> 00:09:17,813
Basically, they look pretty unthrifty,

188
00:09:18,676 --> 00:09:20,430
and it's a little easier to see that this

189
00:09:20,430 --> 00:09:23,713
is happening and know when to treat them.

190
00:09:27,667 --> 00:09:29,563
Sorry, I'm just having trouble
with the little clicker here.

191
00:09:33,382 --> 00:09:35,807
So I wanna go to the
little arrow. There we go.

192
00:09:35,807 --> 00:09:38,787
And there are other
strongyles or stomach worms,

193
00:09:38,787 --> 00:09:40,070
and these worms all disrupt the digestion

194
00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:43,200
and absorption of nutrients
by damaging the gastric glands

195
00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:46,680
in the abomasum and damaging
the lining of the abomasum

196
00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:48,720
or the small intestines.

197
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,787
And the clinical signs are fairly obvious,

198
00:09:51,787 --> 00:09:54,237
what we were just talking
about diarrhea, scours,

199
00:09:55,358 --> 00:09:58,233
weight loss, rough hair
coat, unthriftiness,

200
00:09:59,535 --> 00:10:01,890
and you can see down in the corner here,

201
00:10:01,890 --> 00:10:04,659
you can see what some
of those eggs look like.

202
00:10:04,659 --> 00:10:06,678
They all look basically the same.

203
00:10:06,678 --> 00:10:08,790
The only way you can tell
is through special dyes

204
00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:12,713
or assays that most of us do
not have the facilities to do.

205
00:10:14,186 --> 00:10:15,323
And here are their names.

206
00:10:16,907 --> 00:10:19,758
I'm not gonna even try
to do them, (laughs)

207
00:10:19,758 --> 00:10:21,310
but they're all out there,

208
00:10:21,310 --> 00:10:24,532
and it's hard to know which one you have.

209
00:10:24,532 --> 00:10:25,863
Fortunately, most of the dewormers,

210
00:10:25,863 --> 00:10:28,493
they get most of the other
ones of this type of worm.

211
00:10:31,703 --> 00:10:33,520
And then they're strongyloides.

212
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:34,540
So strongyloides is similar,

213
00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:38,623
and we had an outbreak of
this end of last summer, fall,

214
00:10:39,902 --> 00:10:42,473
and it's an intestinal
thread worm or pin worm.

215
00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:45,563
It's not like the dog and cat species.

216
00:10:46,987 --> 00:10:51,260
It does not affect people,
which is nice, better. (laughs)

217
00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,500
It does have a complicated
life cycle because it

218
00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:55,763
can reproduce sexually or asexually,

219
00:10:57,301 --> 00:11:00,171
and it can infect animals
in several different ways.

220
00:11:00,171 --> 00:11:02,152
It can infect them by ingestion

221
00:11:02,152 --> 00:11:04,702
from the manure in the
pasture, from the dam's milk

222
00:11:05,993 --> 00:11:07,743
if the larvae migrate to her utter.

223
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,379
So the babies can be getting it there.

224
00:11:11,379 --> 00:11:12,579
Through the skin besides

225
00:11:13,467 --> 00:11:15,360
and the hairline just above the hoof.

226
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,770
So if it's muddy, which
most of us have had a lot

227
00:11:17,770 --> 00:11:21,571
of mud here recently
until the last few days

228
00:11:21,571 --> 00:11:24,290
when it's been really nice,
and if the pasture's infected

229
00:11:24,290 --> 00:11:28,110
or it's in the manure and
it can get along the edges

230
00:11:28,974 --> 00:11:30,703
of their hooves, it can actually
get in through the skin,

231
00:11:31,826 --> 00:11:32,750
and it can get in prenatally

232
00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:35,687
if the larvae have
migrated to the placenta.

233
00:11:35,687 --> 00:11:37,737
So they're pretty crafty, little buggers.

234
00:11:38,898 --> 00:11:42,131
And the larvae are sensitive
to cold and dryness,

235
00:11:42,131 --> 00:11:44,553
but of course, all summer, we
have mostly heat and wetness,

236
00:11:45,572 --> 00:11:47,792
and the symptoms are diarrhea,

237
00:11:47,792 --> 00:11:49,460
a good chance that there'll be diarrhea.

238
00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:51,520
They could die from it,
although most people would,

239
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,620
I think, pick up on the signs before that.

240
00:11:54,896 --> 00:11:57,539
If the lungs are infected
by the migrating larvae,

241
00:11:57,539 --> 00:12:00,023
they may be some coughing or pneumonia.

242
00:12:01,946 --> 00:12:04,220
So it's a pretty nasty thing.

243
00:12:04,220 --> 00:12:08,962
We didn't have a lot up in our
particular flock last summer,

244
00:12:08,962 --> 00:12:11,290
but I know Tatiana saw some

245
00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:12,940
with flocks she was working with.

246
00:12:14,428 --> 00:12:16,350
- [Tatiana] Yeah, we saw a lot in flocks,

247
00:12:16,350 --> 00:12:18,998
and the egg is very easy to tell apart

248
00:12:18,998 --> 00:12:21,057
from those strongyle those eggs.

249
00:12:21,057 --> 00:12:25,989
It's a smaller, and it
usually has formed larvae

250
00:12:25,989 --> 00:12:27,473
in it instead of just a nucleus.

251
00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:31,112
- Right.

252
00:12:32,010 --> 00:12:35,310
So this is a totally
different family of worms,

253
00:12:35,310 --> 00:12:38,993
the tapeworms, looks a lot
like linguini or fettuccine,

254
00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:44,960
and it's one of the few worms
you can see in the manure.

255
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,267
So it doesn't necessarily
look like this in the manure,

256
00:12:48,267 --> 00:12:49,100
and a lot of times in the manure,

257
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:50,903
it looks a lot like pieces of rice.

258
00:12:51,899 --> 00:12:54,083
So these come apart in little segments.

259
00:12:54,083 --> 00:12:56,467
This looks like white rice
mixed with the manure.

260
00:12:56,467 --> 00:12:57,300
Once in awhile,

261
00:12:57,300 --> 00:12:59,449
you have a lamb with a
big long one hanging out,

262
00:12:59,449 --> 00:13:01,193
which is really great
when you're giving tours.

263
00:13:02,237 --> 00:13:03,070
We give tours at the extension farm,

264
00:13:03,070 --> 00:13:04,620
and those are the sort
of the things you dread

265
00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:05,920
while you're giving tours.

266
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:10,823
The life cycle, the worms
live in the small intestines,

267
00:13:11,945 --> 00:13:13,750
and they pass out with the feces,

268
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:16,103
and the egg is eaten by a pasture mite.

269
00:13:17,884 --> 00:13:19,529
So the egg hatches in the mite,

270
00:13:19,529 --> 00:13:21,273
and the mite is eaten
by the sheep or goat.

271
00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:24,687
You probably didn't even know there

272
00:13:24,687 --> 00:13:25,874
were mites on your pasture.

273
00:13:25,874 --> 00:13:29,483
I know I didn't, and you can't
really see them out there,

274
00:13:29,483 --> 00:13:30,316
but they're out there,

275
00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:32,023
and they're an important
part of this life cycle.

276
00:13:33,086 --> 00:13:35,500
Light loads of tapeworms
tend not to be a problem.

277
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:38,134
They build up a resistance to them,

278
00:13:38,134 --> 00:13:40,544
so you almost never
see them in the adults,

279
00:13:40,544 --> 00:13:42,117
tend to see them only in the lambs.

280
00:13:42,117 --> 00:13:43,200
And at least where I live,

281
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,463
you tend to see them the
end of June into July,

282
00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:49,123
showing up in the lamb manure,

283
00:13:51,544 --> 00:13:54,060
but you can have stations,
and that can cause problems,

284
00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:57,090
and it's a good reason
to vaccinate your lambs

285
00:13:57,090 --> 00:14:01,530
and young goat kids with
CDT because sometimes,

286
00:14:01,530 --> 00:14:04,800
they build up an infection
in the small intestine

287
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,583
from all the worms in there.

288
00:14:08,754 --> 00:14:10,170
I don't know if it's the worms
dissolving or what it is,

289
00:14:10,170 --> 00:14:11,470
but I have opened up a lamb

290
00:14:11,470 --> 00:14:14,333
and pulled out piles and piles of worms.

291
00:14:15,888 --> 00:14:16,721
- [Tatiana] So Betsy,

292
00:14:16,721 --> 00:14:19,823
what it is is this tape worm
is actually fairly starchy.

293
00:14:21,011 --> 00:14:22,830
So it's just like the
animal eating a bunch

294
00:14:22,830 --> 00:14:25,900
of corn or something that the bacteria

295
00:14:27,089 --> 00:14:31,623
in the small intestines
that work on starch multiply

296
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,060
and put out a toxin, put out that-

297
00:14:36,167 --> 00:14:37,623
- Yeah, so it is like overeating disease.

298
00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:42,170
- [Tatiana] So basically
they get overeating disease.

299
00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:45,103
- Right, which CDT is a vaccination for.

300
00:14:46,437 --> 00:14:47,730
So I sometimes do treat my lambs

301
00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:50,090
if it looks like a very big infestation,

302
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:53,030
but I also have left them
and it looks pretty bad,

303
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:54,233
but they did okay.

304
00:14:57,830 --> 00:15:00,309
It's a different class of wormers.

305
00:15:00,309 --> 00:15:03,010
Not all dewormers get tapeworm,

306
00:15:03,010 --> 00:15:06,301
so if you're trying to treat for tapeworm,

307
00:15:06,301 --> 00:15:08,407
make sure you have a
dewormer that works for that,

308
00:15:08,407 --> 00:15:09,863
and we'll talk about
that in a little while.

309
00:15:10,755 --> 00:15:12,444
So here's our picture again

310
00:15:12,444 --> 00:15:14,196
of the different eggs and larvae,

311
00:15:14,196 --> 00:15:16,106
and we're gonna talk about lungworm,

312
00:15:16,106 --> 00:15:18,643
which you don't see the eggs
of but you see the larvae.

313
00:15:22,614 --> 00:15:25,745
So lungworms have an indirect
cycle through a snail.

314
00:15:25,745 --> 00:15:26,578
You're gonna find out that snails

315
00:15:26,578 --> 00:15:28,253
are a big problem for sheep and goats.

316
00:15:31,426 --> 00:15:34,202
And so they have indirect
life cycle through a snail

317
00:15:34,202 --> 00:15:38,343
or a direct life cycle,
certain ones, and a, sorry.

318
00:15:39,254 --> 00:15:40,955
I was up late lambing last night.

319
00:15:40,955 --> 00:15:42,913
Severe infestation cause coughing,

320
00:15:44,232 --> 00:15:46,503
fluid in the lungs, and pneumonia.

321
00:15:46,503 --> 00:15:50,241
So the cases I've had,
the animals cough a lot

322
00:15:50,241 --> 00:15:52,763
but don't act sick, at least not at first,

323
00:15:53,730 --> 00:15:58,210
and it's excreted as larvae,
not an egg in the feces.

324
00:15:58,210 --> 00:15:59,140
So if you take a fecal sample,

325
00:15:59,140 --> 00:16:01,539
ideally you'd take it
direct from the animal

326
00:16:01,539 --> 00:16:02,842
so you don't pick up something

327
00:16:02,842 --> 00:16:04,846
from the ground that looks similar.

328
00:16:04,846 --> 00:16:08,265
And the ones I've seen
have this typical curly Q.

329
00:16:08,265 --> 00:16:09,470
I may have been seeing others, too,

330
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:11,040
but these I could recognize.

331
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,230
And fortunately, the same medicines

332
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:17,130
that get the stomach
worms and intestinal worms

333
00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:18,677
will get the lungworms.

334
00:16:20,982 --> 00:16:23,260
I did actually have a llama

335
00:16:23,260 --> 00:16:25,653
and a ewe go down on Christmas Eve.

336
00:16:27,162 --> 00:16:29,602
Of course, vets love it when
you call 'em on Christmas Eve,

337
00:16:29,602 --> 00:16:32,805
and I don't blame them, and fortunately,

338
00:16:32,805 --> 00:16:34,030
they were able to advise
me over the phone,

339
00:16:34,030 --> 00:16:39,030
and I treated with dewormer,
and everybody survived fine,

340
00:16:39,593 --> 00:16:42,003
but the ewe never really
got over the coughing,

341
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:45,260
and I ended up culling
her in the long run.

342
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,170
So it's out there, and for
awhile, we treated every fall,

343
00:16:51,282 --> 00:16:52,115
but we don't like to treat all the animals

344
00:16:52,115 --> 00:16:54,850
in the flock at once, which
we'll talk about again later.

345
00:16:55,995 --> 00:16:56,828
And so I don't do that anymore,

346
00:16:56,828 --> 00:16:57,930
but I keep an eye out for it.

347
00:16:57,930 --> 00:17:00,223
It tends to hit later in the fall,

348
00:17:01,086 --> 00:17:03,428
or the actual symptoms
tend to show up later

349
00:17:03,428 --> 00:17:06,723
in the fall, at least in my area.

350
00:17:09,904 --> 00:17:11,403
So let's talk about liver flukes.

351
00:17:12,696 --> 00:17:14,989
There's three kinds of liver flukes,

352
00:17:14,989 --> 00:17:16,153
and they're in the liver,

353
00:17:17,432 --> 00:17:20,020
and some farms in the Northeast have acute

354
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:22,030
or chronic liver fluke populations,

355
00:17:22,030 --> 00:17:26,072
and if they're in your
area, that's not good.

356
00:17:26,072 --> 00:17:28,682
You'll need to watch for
them and treat for them.

357
00:17:28,682 --> 00:17:30,049
It does require water

358
00:17:30,049 --> 00:17:32,249
or at least very damp
conditions and snails.

359
00:17:35,193 --> 00:17:36,026
They can kill.

360
00:17:37,003 --> 00:17:39,441
You can kill adult liver
flukes with albendazole,

361
00:17:39,441 --> 00:17:41,950
which you might know that as Valbazen,

362
00:17:41,950 --> 00:17:43,750
or Ivomec Plus, which has clorsulon,

363
00:17:44,923 --> 00:17:47,715
but you can't kill the immature flukes.

364
00:17:47,715 --> 00:17:49,130
So meanwhile, these immature flukes

365
00:17:49,130 --> 00:17:51,790
are traveling around in the livers,

366
00:17:51,790 --> 00:17:53,363
making them feel terrible.

367
00:17:56,543 --> 00:17:59,743
So let's talk about a
little more in detail.

368
00:17:59,743 --> 00:18:02,130
So the indirect life cycle has a snail

369
00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:04,453
or a snail and intermediate host.

370
00:18:05,993 --> 00:18:09,923
So Fasciola hepatica, this
is the sheep liver fluke,

371
00:18:10,917 --> 00:18:11,841
and I don't know.

372
00:18:11,841 --> 00:18:13,391
Do these affect goats the same,

373
00:18:14,730 --> 00:18:16,230
or is that just a sheep thing?

374
00:18:17,366 --> 00:18:21,475
- [Tatiana] Betsy, Fasciola
hepatica isn't supposed

375
00:18:21,475 --> 00:18:24,363
to be west or east of
the Mississippi River.

376
00:18:27,004 --> 00:18:27,940
- I know that, but the
vet and Brazier Falls

377
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,803
has found them in
somebody's sheep here, so.

378
00:18:32,723 --> 00:18:34,583
- [Tatiana] Right, but they never know

379
00:18:34,583 --> 00:18:37,027
if it's sheep that
actually were shipped here

380
00:18:37,027 --> 00:18:38,913
and had it when they were shipped here.

381
00:18:38,913 --> 00:18:40,356
They're still the-

382
00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:42,206
- But they don't live in
the wild, you're saying.

383
00:18:42,206 --> 00:18:44,082
- [Tatiana] On that, but yeah,

384
00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:47,185
it affects goats the same
way it affects sheep.

385
00:18:47,185 --> 00:18:49,035
- Okay.
- You get chronic infection.

386
00:18:50,037 --> 00:18:51,820
- So hopefully you're not getting this

387
00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:53,970
and not bringing it
into your flock either.

388
00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:58,533
Fascioloides magna or the deer fluke.

389
00:19:00,186 --> 00:19:02,415
I bet everybody here
has deer on their farm,

390
00:19:02,415 --> 00:19:04,540
unfortunately, or the sheep and goats

391
00:19:04,540 --> 00:19:06,490
'cause they carry the deer liver fluke.

392
00:19:07,908 --> 00:19:09,943
It does not bother the deer or the elk.

393
00:19:09,943 --> 00:19:12,532
However, one fluke can
kill a goat or sheep due

394
00:19:12,532 --> 00:19:15,420
to its extensive migration
round in the liver,

395
00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:16,253
and it travels all around,

396
00:19:16,253 --> 00:19:20,393
and I'll show you some pictures
of some livers in a moment,

397
00:19:20,393 --> 00:19:22,735
and you can see the damage that gets done.

398
00:19:22,735 --> 00:19:24,275
And then there's the-
- And Betsy,

399
00:19:24,275 --> 00:19:25,980
it's primarily in deer populations

400
00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:29,383
in the Catskills and the-
- Adirondacks.

401
00:19:32,141 --> 00:19:33,080
- [Tatiana] And I don't
know if that just means

402
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,067
that they shed so few that,

403
00:19:37,067 --> 00:19:39,360
unless you're in our super
heavy deer population,

404
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:40,923
it's not much of a problem.

405
00:19:41,929 --> 00:19:43,890
But I know like in my area
where we do have a lot

406
00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:45,203
of white-tailed deer,

407
00:19:46,206 --> 00:19:48,792
it isn't thought to be much of a problem.

408
00:19:48,792 --> 00:19:50,813
So I think it's just
more, for some reason,

409
00:19:52,086 --> 00:19:54,269
maybe the conditions in the,

410
00:19:54,269 --> 00:19:57,433
you need more of those
mountainous moist conditions

411
00:19:57,433 --> 00:19:58,750
for it to really thrive.

412
00:19:58,750 --> 00:20:02,070
But Catskills and
Adirondacks are really bad,

413
00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:04,910
and your local veterinarian
will almost always know

414
00:20:04,910 --> 00:20:06,913
if you're in a bad liver fluke area.

415
00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:11,415
- I know they had them
in the cows as well.

416
00:20:11,415 --> 00:20:12,370
- [Tatiana] Yeah.

417
00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:16,143
- The lancet fluke is not a
health problem very often,

418
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:19,130
but it does cause the
livers to be condemned

419
00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:20,730
at the slaughterhouse sometimes.

420
00:20:22,027 --> 00:20:24,573
- [Tatiana] And that one is
throughout New York, the lancet.

421
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:31,863
- So here's a little more details.

422
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,763
The hepatica is the common liver fluke.

423
00:20:35,814 --> 00:20:36,647
We were just saying used to assume it

424
00:20:36,647 --> 00:20:37,993
was not east of the Mississippi,

425
00:20:39,014 --> 00:20:40,960
but some veterinarians have
observed some affected animals

426
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,793
in New York.

427
00:20:43,396 --> 00:20:45,463
The life cycle includes freshwater snails,

428
00:20:47,094 --> 00:20:49,518
causes acute peritonitis to the liver

429
00:20:49,518 --> 00:20:50,870
while it migrates around in there.

430
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:52,099
I don't know how they
know where they're going,

431
00:20:52,099 --> 00:20:54,220
but they go all around in the liver.

432
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:57,363
Often causes chronic
wasting problems afterwards,

433
00:20:58,948 --> 00:21:00,920
and you can see bottle jaw from that.

434
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,713
That's the hypoproteinemia and anemia.

435
00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:11,413
And the Fascioloides magna.
This is the deer fluke.

436
00:21:12,254 --> 00:21:14,455
Here we go, found in
Adirondacks and Catskills.

437
00:21:14,455 --> 00:21:16,265
Got a little ahead of ourself there.

438
00:21:16,265 --> 00:21:18,073
It is a natural parasite
of the deer and elk,

439
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:20,053
and in the sheep and goats,

440
00:21:20,053 --> 00:21:23,273
that it's an abnormal
host, and it never matures.

441
00:21:23,273 --> 00:21:25,223
It just stays in the tiny larval stage,

442
00:21:26,458 --> 00:21:29,320
but it continues to migrate
around through the liver

443
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,803
and into the abdominal cavity.

444
00:21:33,045 --> 00:21:35,730
And the good news is they don't spread it

445
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:37,130
to each other at that point.

446
00:21:38,168 --> 00:21:39,818
It is acute and it can kill them,

447
00:21:41,309 --> 00:21:42,423
and you'll see why in a minute.

448
00:21:44,826 --> 00:21:46,973
Here's the liver of a
goat killed by deer fluke.

449
00:21:47,931 --> 00:21:49,569
When you think of what
liver oughta look like,

450
00:21:49,569 --> 00:21:52,413
it should be smooth and reddish brown,

451
00:21:53,973 --> 00:21:56,380
and it shouldn't be all
full of all this scar tissue

452
00:21:56,380 --> 00:21:58,333
and hamburgery-looking stuff.

453
00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:04,163
And interestingly, if you
can save these animals,

454
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,113
their liver will actually improve.

455
00:22:10,061 --> 00:22:11,603
So treatment for liver flukes,

456
00:22:12,590 --> 00:22:14,035
I'm gonna actually go to the next slide

457
00:22:14,035 --> 00:22:14,920
and come back to this one

458
00:22:16,107 --> 00:22:17,826
'cause I wanna show you this liver.

459
00:22:17,826 --> 00:22:19,180
Unfortunately, this is my kitchen sink

460
00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:21,813
and liver from some of my sheep.

461
00:22:23,265 --> 00:22:24,915
And we had lost a bunch of sheep,

462
00:22:25,816 --> 00:22:28,623
15 ewes out of about 105 or 110 sheep,

463
00:22:29,646 --> 00:22:31,146
between October and Christmas.

464
00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:34,851
But while we were trying to
figure out what was going on,

465
00:22:34,851 --> 00:22:36,320
did a whole lot of necropsies
on top of the manure pile

466
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,253
when it was about five degrees
out, and they were actually,

467
00:22:41,592 --> 00:22:45,407
the ones that were dying,
I was mostly finding dead.

468
00:22:45,407 --> 00:22:47,168
Like in the morning, the
sheep would all get up to eat,

469
00:22:47,168 --> 00:22:49,365
and there would be one dead on the floor,

470
00:22:49,365 --> 00:22:51,566
and they were dying from
this Black's disease

471
00:22:51,566 --> 00:22:55,234
or Clostridium novyi that the liver flukes

472
00:22:55,234 --> 00:22:57,207
were dragging around through the liver.

473
00:22:57,207 --> 00:22:58,350
And you can see other organs like stuck

474
00:22:58,350 --> 00:23:01,203
to the liver with fibrin, fibrinogen.

475
00:23:02,965 --> 00:23:05,713
So the whole insides were
irritated and stuck together.

476
00:23:10,113 --> 00:23:13,063
We actually used Vision 7,
but you can use Covexin 8,

477
00:23:14,111 --> 00:23:16,553
something that's got
Clostridium novyi protection,

478
00:23:17,743 --> 00:23:22,250
and we treated them also with the Valbazen

479
00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:24,253
and with clorsulon as per Mary Smith's,

480
00:23:25,287 --> 00:23:28,059
Dr. Mary Smith from
Cornell's instructions.

481
00:23:28,059 --> 00:23:29,708
And we stopped it,

482
00:23:29,708 --> 00:23:31,555
but it was pretty scary
when it was happening

483
00:23:31,555 --> 00:23:33,213
'cause it took a little
while to figure out.

484
00:23:35,926 --> 00:23:37,100
And we did save some that had it

485
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:38,803
but didn't get the Clostridium,

486
00:23:39,993 --> 00:23:42,713
and they were like
standing with their head

487
00:23:42,713 --> 00:23:43,743
in the feeder but not eating.

488
00:23:44,616 --> 00:23:46,850
So they had appetite
and they felt terrible,

489
00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:49,735
and we were able to recover those

490
00:23:49,735 --> 00:23:51,235
with a lot of TLC and nursing,

491
00:23:52,163 --> 00:23:56,203
and they did actually recover
and become productive again.

492
00:24:03,778 --> 00:24:05,829
What do you do about liver flukes?

493
00:24:05,829 --> 00:24:06,700
So you can try to fence off wet areas

494
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:08,373
and stay out of the swamps.

495
00:24:09,618 --> 00:24:12,836
So I think the way we got them
is I was trying to be nice,

496
00:24:12,836 --> 00:24:15,030
and I fenced in the corner of the woods

497
00:24:16,052 --> 00:24:17,755
so that the sheep would have shade.

498
00:24:17,755 --> 00:24:19,813
They were in a pasture
quite a ways from the barn,

499
00:24:20,751 --> 00:24:22,142
long ways from the barn, actually,

500
00:24:22,142 --> 00:24:24,024
and I think in the process,

501
00:24:24,024 --> 00:24:25,597
the trees kept it damp and there

502
00:24:25,597 --> 00:24:26,863
were a lot of snails under there.

503
00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:30,017
So trying to avoid those areas.

504
00:24:30,017 --> 00:24:30,850
You're not really doing the sheep of favor

505
00:24:30,850 --> 00:24:33,879
or goats by getting 'em into those places.

506
00:24:33,879 --> 00:24:35,479
Along hedgerows is the same way,

507
00:24:36,565 --> 00:24:39,090
those places where you have
that real tall reed canary grass

508
00:24:39,090 --> 00:24:43,253
that can sometimes have
a lot of snails also,

509
00:24:44,096 --> 00:24:45,746
places where the sun doesn't hit.

510
00:24:47,613 --> 00:24:49,477
It is harder to kill the
larvae than the adult flukes,

511
00:24:49,477 --> 00:24:52,918
and the deer worm does
not become an adult fluke,

512
00:24:52,918 --> 00:24:53,751
so that's a problem.

513
00:24:54,642 --> 00:24:57,183
We use albendazole, which
you may know as Valbazen,

514
00:24:58,210 --> 00:25:00,590
and you'll have this handout.

515
00:25:00,590 --> 00:25:04,320
So you'll have the actual dosages.

516
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,289
- [Tatiana] And Betsy,
one thing to point out

517
00:25:07,289 --> 00:25:11,476
that I remember when
you had it, initially,

518
00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:14,770
you couldn't use the Valbazen
because you had pregnant ewes

519
00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:17,398
in early right gestation that you

520
00:25:17,398 --> 00:25:18,998
didn't wanna accidentally abort.

521
00:25:19,866 --> 00:25:24,593
And so you were searching for
the Ivomec Plus at that point.

522
00:25:26,304 --> 00:25:27,273
- Right.
- Usually.

523
00:25:29,708 --> 00:25:31,390
- And especially, we
were giving the Valbazen

524
00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:33,453
at like five times the normal dose.

525
00:25:37,031 --> 00:25:39,823
And, of course, we did find Ivomec Plus,

526
00:25:41,027 --> 00:25:43,483
which we gave them
along with the big thing

527
00:25:43,483 --> 00:25:46,393
was the vaccine, I think, really
is what saved most of them.

528
00:25:49,608 --> 00:25:51,573
This is the Fascioloides
is the deer fluke here.

529
00:25:53,238 --> 00:25:55,252
I think I had one this fall with it also.

530
00:25:55,252 --> 00:25:56,806
She was really sick for a long time,

531
00:25:56,806 --> 00:25:58,513
and I nursed her through it.

532
00:26:02,726 --> 00:26:04,240
Oh, coccidiosis.

533
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,555
Coccidiosis is a little different,

534
00:26:06,555 --> 00:26:09,460
tends to be in an inside parasite

535
00:26:10,405 --> 00:26:12,743
as less than a pasture parasite.

536
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,989
It's a single-celled protozoa,

537
00:26:15,989 --> 00:26:18,840
and it damages the lining
of the small intestines,

538
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,113
which means they are not gonna
absorb nutrients as well,

539
00:26:22,132 --> 00:26:24,300
and tends to happen around three weeks old

540
00:26:25,201 --> 00:26:27,147
or three weeks or a little older,

541
00:26:27,147 --> 00:26:29,773
and you might have heard it
called mucky butt in lambs,

542
00:26:29,773 --> 00:26:32,403
makes this really
dark-colored, icky diarrhea.

543
00:26:34,213 --> 00:26:37,670
And it spreads so easily
in the infected feces

544
00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:41,583
and in the bedding and around the barn.

545
00:26:42,816 --> 00:26:44,760
So you know how baby animals
gotta put their mouth

546
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,580
on everything on every feeder

547
00:26:47,809 --> 00:26:49,752
and they're always putting
their mouth on stuff

548
00:26:49,752 --> 00:26:51,638
on the ground and like tasting it?

549
00:26:51,638 --> 00:26:54,173
And that's so easy to
pick up the coccidia,

550
00:26:57,633 --> 00:27:00,193
and it is real typical in young animals.

551
00:27:01,668 --> 00:27:06,668
So this is an intestine and
these little white spots

552
00:27:07,177 --> 00:27:09,771
or white foci in the intestinal wall,

553
00:27:09,771 --> 00:27:11,393
that's where the absorption is impaired,

554
00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:14,973
and it can damage both the
small and the large intestine,

555
00:27:15,812 --> 00:27:16,838
which means they aren't gonna be able

556
00:27:16,838 --> 00:27:18,728
to absorb nutrients very well.

557
00:27:18,728 --> 00:27:21,432
And I don't know, it seems
like that lasts a long time,

558
00:27:21,432 --> 00:27:23,005
even if you treat them,

559
00:27:23,005 --> 00:27:25,605
that they often don't thrive
as well as they should.

560
00:27:30,163 --> 00:27:31,924
So it's species specific.

561
00:27:31,924 --> 00:27:34,473
So many of the Eimeria
species are host specific,

562
00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:38,500
and there is immunity to the species

563
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:42,193
of coccidia as they get
older and have exposure.

564
00:27:43,152 --> 00:27:45,570
So it's best if they have
mild exposure at first

565
00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:46,893
so they don't get an acute case.

566
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,540
And you wanna avoid sudden
exposure to large amounts

567
00:27:49,540 --> 00:27:53,410
of infected feces, like taking
small animals into a spot

568
00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:57,193
that's had a lot of adults, for example.

569
00:27:59,907 --> 00:28:01,965
They're more vulnerable
when they're stressed,

570
00:28:01,965 --> 00:28:03,783
when they're young,
when they're really old,

571
00:28:05,870 --> 00:28:06,982
when they're weaned.

572
00:28:06,982 --> 00:28:09,370
Anything that's in a stressful situation

573
00:28:09,370 --> 00:28:11,734
is more vulnerable to coccidia

574
00:28:11,734 --> 00:28:13,934
and really to most of
the parasites as well.

575
00:28:15,138 --> 00:28:17,877
So it tends to be when
they're housed together

576
00:28:17,877 --> 00:28:18,827
in a smaller space.

577
00:28:19,912 --> 00:28:22,742
So if you can lower the density
of your animals, that helps.

578
00:28:22,742 --> 00:28:24,183
It also helps things stay drier,

579
00:28:25,185 --> 00:28:27,291
and that helps keep the coccidia down.

580
00:28:27,291 --> 00:28:29,483
There's some other tricks,
too, I think we have here.

581
00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:32,943
Likes warmth and moisture,

582
00:28:34,303 --> 00:28:35,540
and it can go from egg to infectious

583
00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:37,023
in just one or two days.

584
00:28:38,206 --> 00:28:40,966
Is also oval looking
when you look on a slide,

585
00:28:40,966 --> 00:28:43,043
but it's quite a bit smaller
than the stomach worms,

586
00:28:44,069 --> 00:28:46,805
and it's killed by the
sunlight and low humidity,

587
00:28:46,805 --> 00:28:49,379
so if you can have a
sunny area in your barn.

588
00:28:49,379 --> 00:28:50,508
I have a greenhouse barn,

589
00:28:50,508 --> 00:28:52,839
so it tends to be very bright,

590
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,294
and the bedding tends to be dry,

591
00:28:55,294 --> 00:28:56,294
which is a big plus.

592
00:28:58,188 --> 00:29:00,071
Might be the only plus
of the greenhouse barn,

593
00:29:00,071 --> 00:29:01,323
but it is definitely a plus.

594
00:29:04,050 --> 00:29:06,013
But none of us have animals
that go in the feeder, right?

595
00:29:06,864 --> 00:29:07,703
(laughs) I know.

596
00:29:08,766 --> 00:29:10,988
They love to get in the
feeder, stand in there,

597
00:29:10,988 --> 00:29:12,633
poop in there, and that's how it spreads.

598
00:29:16,568 --> 00:29:17,985
Yeah, here we go.

599
00:29:18,884 --> 00:29:19,780
I actually can't read
the top of the slide,

600
00:29:19,780 --> 00:29:21,650
but we wanna keep the young animals

601
00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:23,350
away from the adults where we can.

602
00:29:24,819 --> 00:29:27,502
If possible, separate 'em by age.

603
00:29:27,502 --> 00:29:30,520
So only have a two-week
spread in age in the group.

604
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,000
So if you have your lambing or kidding

605
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,773
is spread out over a long time,

606
00:29:35,142 --> 00:29:36,791
you're gonna have newborns being born

607
00:29:36,791 --> 00:29:38,240
when you have three or
four-week-old animals

608
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,540
that might have coccidia
infecting each other,

609
00:29:41,989 --> 00:29:43,739
so to keep that in mind if you can.

610
00:29:44,844 --> 00:29:45,794
Milk is protective.

611
00:29:47,341 --> 00:29:50,005
So weaning is a very high
risk time for coccidia.

612
00:29:50,005 --> 00:29:52,413
It's stressful, and then they
don't have the milk as well.

613
00:29:53,353 --> 00:29:55,703
And again, clean, dry,
if you can get sunlight,

614
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,850
and be especially careful at weaning.

615
00:30:01,473 --> 00:30:03,190
Do we have something in here about the...

616
00:30:05,471 --> 00:30:07,090
Yeah, the additives. Here we go.

617
00:30:07,090 --> 00:30:08,140
- [Tatiana] Or Betsy,

618
00:30:09,351 --> 00:30:11,301
if I can just tell a little case study.

619
00:30:12,521 --> 00:30:13,444
- Sure.

620
00:30:13,444 --> 00:30:16,344
- [Tatiana] Okay. So if you
go back to the previous slide.

621
00:30:21,324 --> 00:30:23,543
So with these dairy goat kids up here,

622
00:30:24,696 --> 00:30:27,971
this was in California
where it's fairly dry,

623
00:30:27,971 --> 00:30:29,663
but we were having trouble.

624
00:30:30,855 --> 00:30:34,363
In part, a big problem you
can have with dairy kids,

625
00:30:35,721 --> 00:30:37,826
if you're raising 'em on raised flooring,

626
00:30:37,826 --> 00:30:39,026
which initially we were,

627
00:30:40,011 --> 00:30:40,880
and then you put 'em down on the ground

628
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,730
and you're putting 'em down on ground

629
00:30:43,727 --> 00:30:46,858
where you've had adult animals
or have had, in our case,

630
00:30:46,858 --> 00:30:49,310
we had had kids that were more like three

631
00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:52,400
or four months old on that ground,

632
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,263
and we did that right at weaning.

633
00:30:55,104 --> 00:30:56,883
And so right at weaning,

634
00:30:56,883 --> 00:31:00,008
the kids got exposed to
feces for the first time

635
00:31:00,008 --> 00:31:02,134
because since they'd
been on raised flooring,

636
00:31:02,134 --> 00:31:04,683
they hadn't been exposed to feces.

637
00:31:05,780 --> 00:31:08,460
And so right then when they
were losing the protection

638
00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:10,495
from milk, they got exposed.

639
00:31:10,495 --> 00:31:14,263
So we'll often say that since
weaning is such a high time,

640
00:31:15,215 --> 00:31:16,420
to talk to your veterinarian about

641
00:31:16,420 --> 00:31:19,709
whether there's something
you can maybe do a week

642
00:31:19,709 --> 00:31:22,598
before you start weaning
for these animals.

643
00:31:22,598 --> 00:31:24,312
And then also keep in mind

644
00:31:24,312 --> 00:31:26,833
that if you're selling
bottle kids to people,

645
00:31:28,053 --> 00:31:30,346
those bottle kids, while
they're at your farm,

646
00:31:30,346 --> 00:31:32,530
can be doing fine, but
they can have been infected

647
00:31:32,530 --> 00:31:36,920
with coccidia, and the stress
of moving to a new farm

648
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,303
can have them suddenly have
coccidia population multiplying.

649
00:31:44,550 --> 00:31:46,300
On the next slide, when
you talk about some

650
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:48,544
of the chemicals we can use,

651
00:31:48,544 --> 00:31:50,545
you can talk to your veterinarian

652
00:31:50,545 --> 00:31:52,950
about whether you can use some of those.

653
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:57,351
And otherwise, just let people
know what the symptoms are

654
00:31:57,351 --> 00:32:00,498
when they're buying bottle
kids and lambs from you

655
00:32:00,498 --> 00:32:03,927
so that they'll be prepared
to identify that kind

656
00:32:05,655 --> 00:32:07,405
of diarrhea is not gonna be normal.

657
00:32:08,743 --> 00:32:11,323
Okay, and I'll shut up.
- Okay. That's a good point.

658
00:32:13,366 --> 00:32:14,823
If I can get the clicker
to work. There we go.

659
00:32:15,772 --> 00:32:17,600
So there are different
coccidiostats out there

660
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,170
that can be added to the feed

661
00:32:20,567 --> 00:32:22,903
or the mineral or potentially the water.

662
00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:26,890
And so there's a trick of putting it

663
00:32:26,890 --> 00:32:29,905
in the minerals for the pregnant females

664
00:32:29,905 --> 00:32:32,183
about a month before they
start to lamb and kid,

665
00:32:33,250 --> 00:32:34,680
and you can keep it in there

666
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,060
until they're weaning their young,

667
00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:38,469
and that just gets the whole level

668
00:32:38,469 --> 00:32:40,769
of coccidia down in the
barn and in the feces.

669
00:32:42,411 --> 00:32:44,358
And there's a couple
different things you can use.

670
00:32:44,358 --> 00:32:48,343
There's Bovatech, but not
in dairy animals, Rumensin.

671
00:32:49,892 --> 00:32:52,692
I find most of the feeds now
that have anti-coccidiostat

672
00:32:53,693 --> 00:32:54,526
and have Deccox.

673
00:32:55,853 --> 00:32:57,680
And then the feed companies like Deccox

674
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,863
'cause it's less toxic to horses, I think.

675
00:33:01,376 --> 00:33:04,372
And there's amprolium or Corid,

676
00:33:04,372 --> 00:33:06,015
which is more of a treatment that you put

677
00:33:06,015 --> 00:33:07,415
in the water or in the milk.

678
00:33:11,771 --> 00:33:14,623
This one is approved for
sheep but toxic to equine.

679
00:33:15,938 --> 00:33:19,305
This one is approved for
goat, also toxic to equine.

680
00:33:19,305 --> 00:33:20,776
This one is approved for sheep and goats.

681
00:33:20,776 --> 00:33:22,873
That's probably why I see
Deccox in most of the feed,

682
00:33:23,945 --> 00:33:26,555
and Corid, again, is a treatment you

683
00:33:26,555 --> 00:33:28,719
can use to put in the water.

684
00:33:28,719 --> 00:33:31,793
I prefer to use it as a
drench and apply it directly.

685
00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:36,340
So if you wanna treat it,

686
00:33:36,340 --> 00:33:39,590
there is chemical
treatment for coccidiosis.

687
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:42,140
There's the oral sulfonamides
like Sulmet or Albon.

688
00:33:43,330 --> 00:33:45,380
Because of the Veterinary Feed Directive,

689
00:33:47,233 --> 00:33:49,360
they need to use a vet prescription

690
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,674
to use some of these things in the feed,

691
00:33:51,674 --> 00:33:55,093
or you may not be able to be
prescribed to use in milk.

692
00:33:58,650 --> 00:34:01,383
I assume this is the milk
you're feeding to the babies.

693
00:34:02,722 --> 00:34:03,555
- [Tatiana] Right,

694
00:34:03,555 --> 00:34:07,683
what it is with the
Veterinary Feed Directive,

695
00:34:11,575 --> 00:34:13,911
you're not supposed to use an off label.

696
00:34:13,911 --> 00:34:17,332
And so because the labels on
these don't mention mixing it

697
00:34:17,332 --> 00:34:20,990
into the milk, some veterinarians will say

698
00:34:20,990 --> 00:34:23,603
that you're not to be
mixing it into the milk.

699
00:34:23,603 --> 00:34:25,353
You can mix it into a milk replacer

700
00:34:26,358 --> 00:34:28,486
if you're mixing it into the water first

701
00:34:28,486 --> 00:34:30,703
and then into the milk replacer,

702
00:34:30,703 --> 00:34:32,003
and that comes into being.

703
00:34:32,942 --> 00:34:35,550
Particularly, some people
used to be in the habit

704
00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:38,010
of using Sulmet or Albon

705
00:34:39,660 --> 00:34:42,133
for the last five days before weaning.

706
00:34:43,028 --> 00:34:46,060
They would put it in the
lamb bar for the lambs

707
00:34:48,114 --> 00:34:52,774
or for the goat kids to just
have that coccidia population

708
00:34:52,774 --> 00:34:55,867
that they might've been
developed knocked down right

709
00:34:55,867 --> 00:34:56,970
before weaning occurred.

710
00:34:56,970 --> 00:35:00,567
But technically, some
veterinarians may say,

711
00:35:00,567 --> 00:35:02,907
"You better not use it that way anymore."

712
00:35:03,902 --> 00:35:07,602
The Corid doesn't fall under
the Veterinary Feed Directive,

713
00:35:07,602 --> 00:35:09,702
so there's flexibility on how you can use.

714
00:35:12,359 --> 00:35:13,370
- So there are directions on the Corid

715
00:35:13,370 --> 00:35:17,083
on how to mix it or the concentration,

716
00:35:17,927 --> 00:35:19,420
and I find it works better

717
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:23,104
if you haven't got 300
lambs to do or something,

718
00:35:23,104 --> 00:35:25,230
if you can dose them for five days

719
00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:28,602
and be sure they all get
what they're supposed to get.

720
00:35:28,602 --> 00:35:29,693
I find it works better that way.

721
00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:34,629
Again, none of these really
kill off all the coccidiosis.

722
00:35:34,629 --> 00:35:35,529
They tamp it down,

723
00:35:36,666 --> 00:35:37,560
so you need to make sure
all the other things

724
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,798
are happening, too, like maybe the pen

725
00:35:40,798 --> 00:35:43,075
is getting cleaned out
and clean bedding put in

726
00:35:43,075 --> 00:35:44,990
and it's dry and all the other things

727
00:35:44,990 --> 00:35:47,363
that need to happen to
make coccidia go away.

728
00:35:50,483 --> 00:35:53,425
I also like to make sure
they have the right minerals,

729
00:35:53,425 --> 00:35:55,514
like selenium, to help their
immunity 'cause they're

730
00:35:55,514 --> 00:35:57,413
gonna try to build up an
immunity against this,

731
00:35:58,403 --> 00:35:59,236
and you may need

732
00:35:59,236 --> 00:36:00,780
to give them a little
supplemental nutrition

733
00:36:02,006 --> 00:36:04,191
or electrolytes if
they're having a hard time

734
00:36:04,191 --> 00:36:09,056
with the coccidia, and
try to relieve the stress

735
00:36:09,056 --> 00:36:10,806
like at weaning as much as you can.

736
00:36:15,166 --> 00:36:16,663
Oh, we're up to the meningeal worm.

737
00:36:18,999 --> 00:36:21,499
And I think you're gonna
talk about this, Tatiana.

738
00:36:24,674 --> 00:36:26,573
Do you want me to stop
sharing so you can share?

739
00:36:34,963 --> 00:36:36,890
I can start if she's
not there at the moment.

740
00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:38,850
- Or Betsy?
- Yes?

741
00:36:38,850 --> 00:36:40,050
- [Tatiana] If you want,

742
00:36:41,118 --> 00:36:43,200
I can just continue using your slides

743
00:36:44,358 --> 00:36:47,296
- Okay.
- if That works for you.

744
00:36:47,296 --> 00:36:48,574
But I think somewhere in here,

745
00:36:48,574 --> 00:36:51,513
I may stop sharing just to
show some of some resources,

746
00:36:52,424 --> 00:36:53,460
okay?
- Okay. Yep.

747
00:36:53,460 --> 00:36:55,584
- [Tatiana] So why don't I, for right now,

748
00:36:55,584 --> 00:36:57,153
just continue on with your slides?

749
00:36:58,008 --> 00:36:58,841
- That would be fine.

750
00:36:59,962 --> 00:37:02,133
- [Tatiana] So we're gonna
talk about the deer worm now,

751
00:37:03,993 --> 00:37:06,804
and it's a parasite of white-tailed deer.

752
00:37:06,804 --> 00:37:09,404
In white-tailed deer, it's
generally non-pathogenic.

753
00:37:10,391 --> 00:37:13,486
It very occasionally it'll
cause problems in 'em,

754
00:37:13,486 --> 00:37:14,648
but for the most part,

755
00:37:14,648 --> 00:37:17,248
it doesn't cause much at
all in the way of problems.

756
00:37:18,369 --> 00:37:20,680
And it's the opposite
of your barber pole worm

757
00:37:21,849 --> 00:37:24,566
in that this is a worm that your animal

758
00:37:24,566 --> 00:37:26,416
only gets a couple of, just one worm.

759
00:37:27,931 --> 00:37:30,353
One deer worm can cause a lot of damage,

760
00:37:31,446 --> 00:37:34,096
and this worm is extremely
long lived in your animal.

761
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,080
It's not thought to reproduce successfully

762
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,143
in sheep and goats,

763
00:37:41,158 --> 00:37:44,963
but one worm can live for six
or seven years in an animal,

764
00:37:46,653 --> 00:37:48,393
in a deer, in some of
the work they've shown.

765
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,743
And unfortunately, small
ruminants are abnormal hosts.

766
00:37:55,126 --> 00:37:58,393
This includes fallow deer if
you have a fallow deer farm.

767
00:37:59,379 --> 00:38:03,663
It includes elk and moose and
then your llamas, alpacas.

768
00:38:04,652 --> 00:38:07,923
And we have seen cases of very
young calves being infected.

769
00:38:09,810 --> 00:38:10,730
If it infects horses,

770
00:38:10,730 --> 00:38:14,253
it shows a whole different
symptom in horses.

771
00:38:15,182 --> 00:38:16,920
So generally, the animals
we're concerned about

772
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,010
are small ruminants and our camelids

773
00:38:20,010 --> 00:38:22,913
like our llamas and alpacas, okay?

774
00:38:24,246 --> 00:38:26,227
It has an indirect life cycle.

775
00:38:26,227 --> 00:38:28,520
It needs a snail and slug in order

776
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,983
to go through its full life cycle, okay?

777
00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:41,676
So I'm gonna go through what
the life cycle is in a deer,

778
00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:44,570
and the deer eats forage
that contains a slime trail

779
00:38:45,429 --> 00:38:47,679
from a slug or a snail
that has been infected

780
00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:52,683
and is excreting the third stage larva.

781
00:38:53,677 --> 00:38:56,713
It's that third stage larva
that's infectious, okay?

782
00:38:57,785 --> 00:39:01,798
And then that larva, after the
deer has eaten that forage,

783
00:39:01,798 --> 00:39:04,244
the larva migrates
through the stomach wall

784
00:39:04,244 --> 00:39:06,713
into the peritoneal
cavity, and from there,

785
00:39:07,625 --> 00:39:11,493
it can get into the lumbar spinal nerves,

786
00:39:11,493 --> 00:39:13,620
so along the short ribs there.

787
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:16,290
It can get in there, and then
it reaches the spinal cord

788
00:39:16,290 --> 00:39:19,613
in about 10 days after
first infecting the animal.

789
00:39:20,537 --> 00:39:21,690
And once it gets to spinal cord,

790
00:39:21,690 --> 00:39:24,000
it's gonna become a lot harder to kill

791
00:39:24,994 --> 00:39:26,180
because the dewormer's gonna have

792
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,713
to get through the blood-brain membrane.

793
00:39:30,208 --> 00:39:33,680
And in a deer, it develops
in a totally orderly manner

794
00:39:34,608 --> 00:39:37,733
in the gray matter of
the spinal cord, okay?

795
00:39:37,733 --> 00:39:40,751
And then at the end of about 40 days,

796
00:39:40,751 --> 00:39:43,672
it comes back to the
surface of the spinal cord,

797
00:39:43,672 --> 00:39:46,258
and it matures and it
migrates into the brain,

798
00:39:46,258 --> 00:39:49,223
into the cranium, and
lives and reproduces there,

799
00:39:50,072 --> 00:39:52,780
and then the eggs are laid
into the blood vessels.

800
00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:54,950
Even though this seems really invasive

801
00:39:55,898 --> 00:40:00,898
in the white-tailed deer,
it's essentially cohabitation.

802
00:40:00,951 --> 00:40:02,780
They get along just great.

803
00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:05,030
And then the egg hatches
in the blood vessels

804
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,970
in the lungs as it travels there

805
00:40:09,127 --> 00:40:11,227
through the blood into first stage larvae,

806
00:40:12,307 --> 00:40:14,140
and then goes into the bronchial tree,

807
00:40:15,786 --> 00:40:19,021
gets coughed up, and
the animal reswallows it

808
00:40:19,021 --> 00:40:22,333
when it coughs it up and
it passes into the feces,

809
00:40:22,333 --> 00:40:25,083
and these first stage larvae
are excreted in the feces.

810
00:40:25,924 --> 00:40:28,563
And so that's what it does
in the deer, basically.

811
00:40:31,530 --> 00:40:34,419
And like you, I'm having
trouble moving. Okay.

812
00:40:34,419 --> 00:40:35,252
- I have to move 'em for you.

813
00:40:35,252 --> 00:40:37,825
- [Tatiana] It's in the mucous coat there

814
00:40:37,825 --> 00:40:41,860
of the fecal pellets,
and it's usually excreted

815
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:45,043
about 90 days after the
deer has been infected.

816
00:40:46,208 --> 00:40:48,110
And these first stage larvae can be killed

817
00:40:48,110 --> 00:40:52,140
by drying or by direct sunlight,

818
00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:54,623
but they resist freezing, unfortunately,

819
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:57,470
and land snails and slugs then crawl

820
00:40:57,470 --> 00:41:02,143
over that deer feces
during the fall or summer.

821
00:41:03,153 --> 00:41:05,543
They crawl over it or in the spring,

822
00:41:06,606 --> 00:41:10,163
and the larva gets into the
snail or slug through its foot,

823
00:41:11,460 --> 00:41:14,494
and then it develops in that snail

824
00:41:14,494 --> 00:41:16,891
or slug into the third stage larva.

825
00:41:16,891 --> 00:41:18,963
And this actually takes
a pretty long time.

826
00:41:20,296 --> 00:41:23,253
With the snails we raise
in the colony at Cornell,

827
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:26,305
it usually takes about
two to three months,

828
00:41:26,305 --> 00:41:29,103
and we have 'em at 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

829
00:41:29,103 --> 00:41:30,523
We have 'em at room temperature.

830
00:41:31,986 --> 00:41:33,483
So in warmer temperature,

831
00:41:33,483 --> 00:41:35,233
it'd probably happen a little faster.

832
00:41:37,388 --> 00:41:39,803
It can stay inside the snail or the slug,

833
00:41:40,771 --> 00:41:42,770
or it can be excreted in the slime trail,

834
00:41:42,770 --> 00:41:46,210
and there are not a lot of these larvae

835
00:41:47,835 --> 00:41:49,273
in any individual snail.

836
00:41:50,410 --> 00:41:52,496
On the studies they've done,

837
00:41:52,496 --> 00:41:55,938
there's usually an average
of about three larvae there.

838
00:41:55,938 --> 00:41:58,313
And we actually, with
the colony at Cornell,

839
00:41:59,326 --> 00:42:00,800
we have trouble getting them

840
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,960
to produce enough of the larvae.

841
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,153
Even though we infect them pretty heavily,

842
00:42:08,544 --> 00:42:13,544
each snail only really grows
out to a third stage larva,

843
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,213
a fairly limited number of larvae.

844
00:42:18,439 --> 00:42:19,785
But unfortunately, as we said,

845
00:42:19,785 --> 00:42:22,735
it doesn't take many of these
to really damage your animal.

846
00:42:25,784 --> 00:42:26,617
- I think I'll never look at deer

847
00:42:26,617 --> 00:42:28,233
and snails the same way again.

848
00:42:30,466 --> 00:42:31,750
- [Tatiana] Okay, so
unfortunately, as we said,

849
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:35,743
small ruminants and camelids
are an abnormal host.

850
00:42:38,598 --> 00:42:40,860
In a sheep or goat, the larvae travel

851
00:42:41,980 --> 00:42:44,090
from that intestinal
tract to the gray matter

852
00:42:44,090 --> 00:42:48,621
of the spinal cord, just the
way they did with the deer,

853
00:42:48,621 --> 00:42:51,227
but at this point, they
become disoriented.

854
00:42:51,227 --> 00:42:52,270
It's a different spinal cord

855
00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:57,270
than what they evolved to travel through.

856
00:42:58,277 --> 00:43:00,591
And they become
disoriented, and, therefore,

857
00:43:00,591 --> 00:43:02,959
they become way more active in there,

858
00:43:02,959 --> 00:43:05,676
trying to figure out just
where the hell they are,

859
00:43:05,676 --> 00:43:09,143
and they can cause nerve
damage because of this.

860
00:43:10,171 --> 00:43:12,950
And the nerve damage we
generally see will be some sort

861
00:43:12,950 --> 00:43:16,490
of lameness or weakness in the hind end,

862
00:43:16,490 --> 00:43:21,490
but it's not always limited
to that lumbar region.

863
00:43:22,124 --> 00:43:24,839
You can get it anywhere
along the vertebrae.

864
00:43:24,839 --> 00:43:28,343
So the damage can be up at
the neck all the way back.

865
00:43:31,778 --> 00:43:33,210
Even though typically we
see it in the hind legs

866
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:35,800
and in the back, we can see the damage

867
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,890
in the front legs occasionally,

868
00:43:38,890 --> 00:43:42,952
and the animal will often
slightly drag a hind leg,

869
00:43:42,952 --> 00:43:45,396
or as they're turning, they'll stumble.

870
00:43:45,396 --> 00:43:47,830
Those will be the first signs you see,

871
00:43:47,830 --> 00:43:50,148
and then it can get worse and worse.

872
00:43:50,148 --> 00:43:52,038
The other sign you sometimes see,

873
00:43:52,038 --> 00:43:53,730
and it's not necessarily
in the same animals

874
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:57,873
that show these problems
with the way they're moving,

875
00:43:58,967 --> 00:44:03,883
is you can get damage to
the nerve cells in the skin,

876
00:44:05,574 --> 00:44:06,433
in the skin layer.

877
00:44:08,782 --> 00:44:10,929
And it'll be under a vertebrae, but again,

878
00:44:10,929 --> 00:44:12,370
it can be under a vertebrae anywhere

879
00:44:12,370 --> 00:44:14,293
from the neck to the tail.

880
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:18,510
And so the animal, wherever
that nerve damage has been

881
00:44:20,011 --> 00:44:23,675
in the skin layer, the
animal feels a constant itch,

882
00:44:23,675 --> 00:44:26,376
and the animal will
scratch, scratch, scratch

883
00:44:26,376 --> 00:44:31,297
at the same location, and they
can rub themselves raw there.

884
00:44:32,647 --> 00:44:34,076
And it can be a little tricky

885
00:44:34,076 --> 00:44:35,848
in that we usually get that right

886
00:44:35,848 --> 00:44:38,479
about the same start of black fly season.

887
00:44:38,479 --> 00:44:39,312
And so you're going, "Okay,

888
00:44:39,312 --> 00:44:42,786
is this sore because of
deer worm telling me that,

889
00:44:42,786 --> 00:44:43,910
ooh, I've got a deer worm issue going

890
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:47,724
on in my herd right now
or in my flock right now,

891
00:44:47,724 --> 00:44:50,997
or is this just black
flies or no-see-ums?"

892
00:44:52,736 --> 00:44:54,830
Unfortunately with the lameness one,

893
00:44:54,830 --> 00:44:57,340
the lameness one can progress to the point

894
00:44:57,340 --> 00:45:01,153
where the animal's hind legs
become completely paralyzed,

895
00:45:04,222 --> 00:45:06,709
and occasionally we will see death

896
00:45:06,709 --> 00:45:08,357
if the nerves that are affected

897
00:45:08,357 --> 00:45:10,607
are affecting the animal's
ability to breathe

898
00:45:12,004 --> 00:45:13,820
or if the animal starts laying on one side

899
00:45:13,820 --> 00:45:17,220
and fluid builds up in
the lungs on that side

900
00:45:17,220 --> 00:45:18,913
and the animal gets pneumonia.

901
00:45:20,788 --> 00:45:24,400
Very typical for deer worm damage,

902
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,968
unlike a lot of other
neurological diseases

903
00:45:27,968 --> 00:45:28,801
like polioencephalomalacia,

904
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,734
goat polio or sheep polio, or listeria,

905
00:45:34,734 --> 00:45:37,634
the animal will typically
maintain a really good appetite.

906
00:45:38,621 --> 00:45:39,918
So it'll be really frustrating.

907
00:45:39,918 --> 00:45:43,157
You'll have this animal down
that's really eager to eat,

908
00:45:43,157 --> 00:45:47,370
but it can't get up, okay?
- And what about blindness?

909
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:49,893
Isn't that potentially a symptom also?

910
00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:54,516
- [Tatiana] It can affect
the brain, and in that case,

911
00:45:54,516 --> 00:45:57,817
you'll get twirly eyes.
- Yep.

912
00:45:57,817 --> 00:45:58,650
- [Tatiana] I haven't heard

913
00:45:58,650 --> 00:46:01,168
of anyone getting true moon blindness,

914
00:46:01,168 --> 00:46:02,908
but that doesn't mean you couldn't,

915
00:46:02,908 --> 00:46:05,700
but what we have seen
is twirly eyes with it,

916
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:07,610
but then we usually
recommend that people treat

917
00:46:07,610 --> 00:46:11,430
with thiamine as well, just
in case it's goat polio,

918
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:16,500
encephalomalacia instead.

919
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:18,779
We usually can't rule those out,

920
00:46:18,779 --> 00:46:20,603
but yes, it can affect the brain,

921
00:46:21,687 --> 00:46:23,040
and so because of that,

922
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,970
I could see the possibility
of you seeing moon blindness

923
00:46:27,013 --> 00:46:31,196
and actual blindness going on
as well, but generally not.

924
00:46:31,196 --> 00:46:32,370
And in horses, I believe,

925
00:46:32,370 --> 00:46:35,483
that is more one of the
symptoms you'll sometimes see.

926
00:46:37,147 --> 00:46:39,710
- I know what happens to
me is I have it so rarely

927
00:46:39,710 --> 00:46:41,397
that I don't recognize it, and I think,

928
00:46:41,397 --> 00:46:44,180
"Well, this sheep must have got smushed

929
00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:45,770
at the feeder by the other sheep,"

930
00:46:45,770 --> 00:46:49,150
or they look like they're
a little drunk or something

931
00:46:49,150 --> 00:46:54,150
and they're wobbly in the
back end, and then I realize,

932
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:55,790
takes me a little bit to realize

933
00:46:55,790 --> 00:46:57,440
that it's probably the deer worm.

934
00:47:00,675 --> 00:47:02,850
- [Tatiana] Okay, great.
It moved, (laughs) okay.

935
00:47:02,850 --> 00:47:05,958
- You have to let me know.
I'm moving it for you.

936
00:47:05,958 --> 00:47:07,599
- [Tatiana] Okay. Oh, that's right.

937
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:08,983
Oh yeah, you have control.
(laughs) I'm sorry.

938
00:47:10,782 --> 00:47:13,242
Okay, and so up to a few years ago,

939
00:47:13,242 --> 00:47:16,033
there'd been no real controlled
studies in sheep or goats.

940
00:47:19,272 --> 00:47:21,524
At Cornell, we did do a three-year study.

941
00:47:21,524 --> 00:47:24,524
It was an informal study, but
it did involve a lot of farms.

942
00:47:25,872 --> 00:47:29,463
We actually worked with 16
farms, maybe as many as 16,

943
00:47:30,499 --> 00:47:31,610
but some of the farms said that,

944
00:47:31,610 --> 00:47:34,991
as soon as they enrolled
in the study, it was great.

945
00:47:34,991 --> 00:47:37,283
They stopped having issues with deer worm.

946
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,780
So not all the farms had animals

947
00:47:40,780 --> 00:47:42,603
with deer worm during the study.

948
00:47:43,616 --> 00:47:48,616
We chose farms that were
in within a 30-mile radius,

949
00:47:49,261 --> 00:47:51,430
I think, of Ithaca, and we chose farms

950
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:55,537
that had all had experience
with deer worm before

951
00:47:55,537 --> 00:47:58,980
because the farmers were
gonna have to identify

952
00:47:58,980 --> 00:48:01,423
that they thought the
animals had deer worm.

953
00:48:03,563 --> 00:48:07,130
And we looked at two different
treatment protocols for it,

954
00:48:07,130 --> 00:48:10,080
and then what we would do
is the farmer would call us

955
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,540
and say, "Hey, I've got an animal

956
00:48:13,477 --> 00:48:15,163
that I think has deer worm."

957
00:48:15,163 --> 00:48:16,690
And then the veterinarian
would go out there

958
00:48:16,690 --> 00:48:20,310
and do a neurological exam of the animal

959
00:48:21,322 --> 00:48:22,743
and do a scorecard on it,

960
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,490
and the farmer would start the animal

961
00:48:26,490 --> 00:48:28,920
on treatment right away regardless

962
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,670
of whether the veterinarian
could get there right away.

963
00:48:33,217 --> 00:48:37,191
And we told some of the farmers
to start with treatment A

964
00:48:37,191 --> 00:48:41,100
and some of them to start with
treatment B and to rotate.

965
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,750
The first animal they
had come down with it

966
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:46,010
would get treatment A and the next animal

967
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:47,423
would get treatment B.

968
00:48:49,093 --> 00:48:52,053
And then we would videotape
the animals that first day,

969
00:48:52,963 --> 00:48:55,550
and then the vet would come
back around five days later

970
00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:58,440
or after the animal had
been treated for five days

971
00:48:59,498 --> 00:49:00,430
and videotape the animal again

972
00:49:00,430 --> 00:49:02,373
and video score the animal again.

973
00:49:03,547 --> 00:49:04,380
Next slide.

974
00:49:07,081 --> 00:49:09,911
And our goal in our
study was to look to see

975
00:49:09,911 --> 00:49:13,058
whether ivermectin was really
needed in the treatment,

976
00:49:13,058 --> 00:49:14,250
and I realize right now I'm talking

977
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:17,460
about chemical treatments,
and in a little while,

978
00:49:17,460 --> 00:49:20,853
I'll talk about what a farm
that's certified organic,

979
00:49:21,918 --> 00:49:23,370
what you're up against and what

980
00:49:23,370 --> 00:49:25,320
are some of the things that you can do.

981
00:49:26,487 --> 00:49:30,290
And so we wanted to see
whether you needed ivermectin

982
00:49:30,290 --> 00:49:32,860
because theoretically,
ivermectin can't pass

983
00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:35,150
through the blood-brain barrier.

984
00:49:35,150 --> 00:49:37,970
So it shouldn't aid in
treatment unless the animal's

985
00:49:37,970 --> 00:49:40,993
in the first 10 days of being infected,

986
00:49:42,011 --> 00:49:44,160
and usually in the first
10 days of being infected,

987
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,363
the animal's not gonna show any symptoms.

988
00:49:47,745 --> 00:49:50,245
And so we used the steroid,
we used dexamethasone,

989
00:49:51,241 --> 00:49:53,810
and the purpose of that was to try

990
00:49:53,810 --> 00:49:56,104
and control the nerve damage.

991
00:49:56,104 --> 00:49:58,141
It's an anti-inflammatory,

992
00:49:58,141 --> 00:50:00,583
and we wanted to minimize
that nerve damage.

993
00:50:03,333 --> 00:50:05,405
And some veterinarians like to use it

994
00:50:05,405 --> 00:50:07,205
at a fairly high dose for five days.

995
00:50:08,122 --> 00:50:11,119
In our case, we used it at
a heavy dose for three days

996
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,333
and then dropped the dose to half that.

997
00:50:16,209 --> 00:50:18,915
Just because it is a steroid,

998
00:50:18,915 --> 00:50:20,110
it makes the animal more susceptible

999
00:50:20,110 --> 00:50:23,361
to pneumonia and other issues.

1000
00:50:23,361 --> 00:50:25,350
And so if your animal's down
and you're not really good

1001
00:50:25,350 --> 00:50:27,140
about keeping it on the chest floor,

1002
00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:28,963
it's getting on its side,

1003
00:50:29,932 --> 00:50:32,880
you may run more risk of
pneumonia if you've got it

1004
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,523
on the high-level
dexamethasone all five days.

1005
00:50:37,737 --> 00:50:39,750
But as I said, some veterinarians prefer

1006
00:50:39,750 --> 00:50:41,900
to keep it at the high
level for five days.

1007
00:50:43,676 --> 00:50:45,270
And if you use Banamine instead,

1008
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:50,133
which the active ingredient
would be your flunixin,

1009
00:50:52,020 --> 00:50:55,141
there's a 60-day withdrawal
on that for sheep.

1010
00:50:55,141 --> 00:50:57,441
On dex, I don't believe
there is a withdrawal.

1011
00:50:58,589 --> 00:51:00,940
And then we use fenbendazole,
which is supposed to be able

1012
00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:02,943
to go through the blood-brain membrane,

1013
00:51:03,915 --> 00:51:05,860
and that's sold as Safeguard,

1014
00:51:05,860 --> 00:51:09,243
and we were using the
oral goat Safeguard on it.

1015
00:51:14,019 --> 00:51:16,220
And then for goats that only
had a 10-day withdrawal,

1016
00:51:16,220 --> 00:51:19,343
even at the super heavy
dosages we were using it at,

1017
00:51:20,288 --> 00:51:22,060
but at sheep, it had a 54 day.

1018
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:24,600
And then we were using either ivermectin

1019
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,358
or an ivermectin placebo
that had the medium

1020
00:51:28,358 --> 00:51:29,808
that normal ivermectin is in.

1021
00:51:30,660 --> 00:51:33,533
We were injecting that
medium into the animal.

1022
00:51:34,771 --> 00:51:35,780
The vet company was nice enough

1023
00:51:35,780 --> 00:51:37,523
to provide us with that medium,

1024
00:51:39,045 --> 00:51:41,950
and so we were using it
as sub-q for five days,

1025
00:51:41,950 --> 00:51:43,283
and we were shocked.

1026
00:51:44,469 --> 00:51:46,183
When we went to FARAD,

1027
00:51:46,183 --> 00:51:51,183
the Food Animal Residual
Avoidance Database,

1028
00:51:53,882 --> 00:51:56,260
they gave us a withdrawal
period of 96 days

1029
00:51:57,324 --> 00:51:59,987
for both goats and sheep,
and that's primarily

1030
00:51:59,987 --> 00:52:03,672
because of not knowing when it
would clear out of the liver.

1031
00:52:03,672 --> 00:52:06,000
Okay? So they would be condemning livers.

1032
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,130
And so you can see that if
you're using this for 96 days

1033
00:52:12,509 --> 00:52:14,650
and the animal doesn't
recover and you're hoping

1034
00:52:14,650 --> 00:52:17,853
to eat the animal yourself or something,

1035
00:52:20,109 --> 00:52:22,776
if you use ivermectin,
you've made it so that it's

1036
00:52:22,776 --> 00:52:25,683
gonna be a long time before
you can eat that animal.

1037
00:52:27,224 --> 00:52:28,057
Next.

1038
00:52:32,171 --> 00:52:33,892
- I just have a question, Tat.

1039
00:52:33,892 --> 00:52:37,603
In the dexamethasone, if
you have pregnant animals,

1040
00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:41,197
is it okay to use?
- Okay, okay,

1041
00:52:41,197 --> 00:52:43,993
and thank you so much
for pointing that out.

1042
00:52:44,996 --> 00:52:49,996
The reason we list Banamine
here is there's two reasons,

1043
00:52:50,081 --> 00:52:52,690
but the main reason why it's listed

1044
00:52:52,690 --> 00:52:57,690
is if your animal is in her
last month of gestation,

1045
00:52:58,817 --> 00:53:00,240
giving them dexamethasone can cause them

1046
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:01,803
to go into early labor,

1047
00:53:03,660 --> 00:53:05,656
which you definitely wouldn't be wanting.

1048
00:53:05,656 --> 00:53:06,740
So you would not be using a steroid

1049
00:53:06,740 --> 00:53:09,430
like dexamethasone on them, okay?

1050
00:53:11,790 --> 00:53:13,170
Instead, in those cases,

1051
00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:16,543
we use Banamine as our anti-inflammatory.

1052
00:53:18,072 --> 00:53:21,963
Another thing is flunixin is permitted.

1053
00:53:27,045 --> 00:53:29,830
Your dexamethasone is
completely prohibited

1054
00:53:30,933 --> 00:53:31,933
for organic animals.

1055
00:53:33,756 --> 00:53:38,756
Your Banamine is permitted for pain relief

1056
00:53:39,327 --> 00:53:43,193
and also as an anti-inflammatory.

1057
00:53:47,022 --> 00:53:50,338
But it's only permitted
in the case, I believe,

1058
00:53:50,338 --> 00:53:53,743
it's only permitted for
breeding stock animals prior

1059
00:53:53,743 --> 00:53:57,080
to the last third of gestation and prior

1060
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,500
to their nursing lamb or kid

1061
00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:04,083
that's gonna be sold for organic meat,

1062
00:54:06,302 --> 00:54:09,540
and it is allowed in dairy animals.

1063
00:54:09,540 --> 00:54:10,630
You need to be following the label,

1064
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:15,630
and I would definitely say
check with V-O-F or VOF

1065
00:54:18,622 --> 00:54:22,283
about that prior to using Banamine.

1066
00:54:26,632 --> 00:54:28,240
And when it comes to your fenbendazole...

1067
00:54:30,450 --> 00:54:31,300
- Sorry.
- Yeah.

1068
00:54:32,626 --> 00:54:33,459
I guess if we go ahead and talk

1069
00:54:33,459 --> 00:54:35,383
about some of the organic stuff now.

1070
00:54:36,380 --> 00:54:41,380
So if you end up with a young animal

1071
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:43,970
that's scheduled to go for slaughter

1072
00:54:45,083 --> 00:54:47,283
that's showing up with
some deer worm signs,

1073
00:54:49,550 --> 00:54:51,800
you have to really think
about what you wanna do.

1074
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,933
Sometimes, these animals
will spontaneously recover,

1075
00:54:55,999 --> 00:54:59,770
and sometimes when they're in
the slight toe dragging stage

1076
00:55:00,735 --> 00:55:02,562
or slightly weak in the back stage,

1077
00:55:02,562 --> 00:55:04,870
sometimes that stage will take a couple

1078
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:07,963
of weeks to go through
before they actually go down.

1079
00:55:09,133 --> 00:55:11,850
And so I know in our study,
we had some people that,

1080
00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:14,887
because that 54-day withdrawal

1081
00:55:14,887 --> 00:55:17,871
on the Safeguard for sheep said,

1082
00:55:17,871 --> 00:55:20,814
"No way am I treating these
young animals with that."

1083
00:55:20,814 --> 00:55:24,846
And their custom exempt slaughterhouses

1084
00:55:24,846 --> 00:55:27,040
were willing to accept those animals

1085
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,764
when they were just slightly
dragging on a hind leg,

1086
00:55:30,764 --> 00:55:33,519
but it really depends
on the slaughterhouse.

1087
00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:35,019
If it's a USDA slaughterhouse,

1088
00:55:36,681 --> 00:55:39,273
that may appear to be a neurological sign,

1089
00:55:40,236 --> 00:55:41,130
and you especially couldn't send one in

1090
00:55:41,130 --> 00:55:44,060
with twirly eyes or anything like that.

1091
00:55:44,060 --> 00:55:45,103
It's gonna get condemned.

1092
00:55:46,408 --> 00:55:47,241
They're not gonna accept it,

1093
00:55:47,241 --> 00:55:49,223
and if it's down, it's gonna be condemned.

1094
00:55:50,274 --> 00:55:51,150
So it really depends

1095
00:55:51,150 --> 00:55:56,150
on what market channel you have available

1096
00:55:57,421 --> 00:55:58,897
for getting rid of that animal

1097
00:55:58,897 --> 00:56:01,550
and how used that market
channel is to deer worm

1098
00:56:03,851 --> 00:56:05,423
to dealing with deer worm issues.

1099
00:56:07,059 --> 00:56:12,053
And so sometimes the best
choice is to just immediately,

1100
00:56:12,053 --> 00:56:14,817
when you realize, "Hmm, this
animal may have deer worm,"

1101
00:56:15,740 --> 00:56:18,330
it seems slightly off on those back legs,

1102
00:56:18,330 --> 00:56:21,503
to get it slaughtered
as quickly as possible.

1103
00:56:24,003 --> 00:56:28,340
Other times, if the animal that's infected

1104
00:56:30,586 --> 00:56:32,822
are your breeding does
or your breeding ewes

1105
00:56:32,822 --> 00:56:36,970
for a meat operation or if
you've got a fiber operation

1106
00:56:36,970 --> 00:56:41,910
or if these are dairy
animals, then you do need

1107
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:47,423
to usually go ahead and do
your fenbendazole treatment.

1108
00:56:49,879 --> 00:56:54,728
And fenbendazole is allowed
in emergency situations.

1109
00:56:54,728 --> 00:56:58,519
Ivermectin is no longer allowed
in emergency situations,

1110
00:56:58,519 --> 00:56:59,660
so you would be deciding whether you

1111
00:56:59,660 --> 00:57:02,903
wanna use some Cydectin there instead.

1112
00:57:04,417 --> 00:57:07,937
But when I get into the
results of the study,

1113
00:57:07,937 --> 00:57:10,160
you'll see why often
just limiting yourself

1114
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,853
to that Safeguard is probably fine.

1115
00:57:14,043 --> 00:57:15,900
And so if those breeding stock animals

1116
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:18,300
aren't in the last third of gestation

1117
00:57:19,515 --> 00:57:23,311
and aren't nursing lambs
and kids right then,

1118
00:57:23,311 --> 00:57:26,433
then you can go ahead and
treat 'em with fenbendazole,

1119
00:57:28,798 --> 00:57:31,075
and they can remain on the farm,

1120
00:57:31,075 --> 00:57:32,370
and the same thing with your breeding rams

1121
00:57:32,370 --> 00:57:33,703
and your breeding bucks.

1122
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:39,731
That cull ewe or that cull ram

1123
00:57:39,731 --> 00:57:42,063
will never be able to
be sold as organic meat,

1124
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,950
but they can remain on the farm,

1125
00:57:45,950 --> 00:57:49,383
and they can produce organic offspring.

1126
00:57:50,553 --> 00:57:54,550
And if it's a dairy animal lactating,

1127
00:57:54,550 --> 00:57:56,600
I believe it's a 90-day withdrawal

1128
00:57:58,017 --> 00:58:00,553
that you would have to
follow for milk withdrawal.

1129
00:58:02,701 --> 00:58:04,924
And the thing is I know on a lot of farms,

1130
00:58:04,924 --> 00:58:06,950
we get infected with deer worm right

1131
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:09,463
as we're starting to breed our animals.

1132
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:16,764
Depending on what time of
year you're breeding for

1133
00:58:16,764 --> 00:58:18,733
or whether you're practicing
outta season breeding,

1134
00:58:21,134 --> 00:58:22,920
our biggest incidence of an infection

1135
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,590
with deer worm is in
the fall, and so often,

1136
00:58:25,590 --> 00:58:26,910
you wouldn't have your animals

1137
00:58:26,910 --> 00:58:29,903
in the third trimester at that point.

1138
00:58:31,958 --> 00:58:34,418
And when it comes to dexamethasone, no,

1139
00:58:34,418 --> 00:58:36,964
you absolutely can't use dexamethasone.

1140
00:58:36,964 --> 00:58:39,449
So you would be talking
to your veterinarian

1141
00:58:39,449 --> 00:58:41,090
and to your certification agency

1142
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:45,223
about allowable anti-inflammatories.

1143
00:58:46,179 --> 00:58:51,179
So like while you're omega-3 fatty oils,

1144
00:58:53,933 --> 00:58:57,923
like your fish oil and your
flaxseed oil are high in those,

1145
00:58:59,222 --> 00:59:02,959
I'm not sure that they last
going through the rumen,

1146
00:59:02,959 --> 00:59:05,864
and you would want it to
last going through the rumen.

1147
00:59:05,864 --> 00:59:06,900
So that's where you might be more looking

1148
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:09,153
at your turmeric and your ginger.

1149
00:59:10,788 --> 00:59:13,600
And then also just talking
with veterinarians,

1150
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,920
if you're working with
an herbal consultant,

1151
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,030
talking about what
anti-inflammatories they recommend

1152
00:59:20,030 --> 00:59:25,030
for nerve damage and finding
out if those are herbal ones

1153
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:29,873
that are allowed for organic
usage or not on livestock.

1154
00:59:31,978 --> 00:59:36,104
Okay, and then prevention
is gonna be a real big part

1155
00:59:36,104 --> 00:59:39,677
of what you're gonna wanna be
practicing with a lot of this.

1156
00:59:39,677 --> 00:59:41,614
Okay, so basically this was our study.

1157
00:59:41,614 --> 00:59:43,563
So Betsy, go ahead to the next slide.

1158
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,680
So this is a young ewe
here, a yearling with it.

1159
01:00:05,931 --> 01:00:09,253
Betsy, can you hit the,
yeah, hit that again?

1160
01:00:10,100 --> 01:00:14,240
And you can see she's got the
typical hind legs dragging.

1161
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,544
It's pretty advanced in her.

1162
01:00:16,544 --> 01:00:18,803
This isn't an animal that
you're gonna get away

1163
01:00:18,803 --> 01:00:21,853
with taking to the custom
exempt slaughterhouse probably.

1164
01:00:22,855 --> 01:00:23,984
Okay?

1165
01:00:23,984 --> 01:00:26,984
She's definitely showing her
neurologic signs at this point.

1166
01:00:31,637 --> 01:00:35,226
And this is that same ewe five days later,

1167
01:00:35,226 --> 01:00:36,680
and you can see that she showed a lot

1168
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,803
of improvement with chemical treatment,

1169
01:00:40,169 --> 01:00:42,060
though sometimes we'll
have animals spontaneously

1170
01:00:42,060 --> 01:00:43,823
recover as well.

1171
01:00:48,410 --> 01:00:53,010
If you've got an animal that's infected

1172
01:00:53,010 --> 01:00:54,933
that you do wanna market,

1173
01:00:56,246 --> 01:00:58,433
you can certainly go ahead and try.

1174
01:00:59,597 --> 01:01:03,554
Your copper oxide wire
particles will not be of help

1175
01:01:03,554 --> 01:01:07,110
because the deer worm doesn't
go to the true stomach, okay?

1176
01:01:07,110 --> 01:01:08,983
That's not where it hides out.

1177
01:01:10,101 --> 01:01:11,851
It's hiding out in the spinal cord.

1178
01:01:13,734 --> 01:01:17,380
And in order for copper
oxide wire particles

1179
01:01:17,380 --> 01:01:19,093
to kill barber pole worms,

1180
01:01:21,628 --> 01:01:23,493
they kill it in the true stomach.

1181
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:26,360
So copper isn't gonna work.

1182
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,544
I would not recommend black walnut hulls

1183
01:01:30,544 --> 01:01:34,240
because black walnut hulls do
cause like laminitis problems

1184
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,954
in horses, and if they have
a microtoxin or mold on 'em,

1185
01:01:38,954 --> 01:01:42,050
they can also cause
neurological symptoms in dogs.

1186
01:01:44,972 --> 01:01:46,920
And so you're not
wanting to use a chemical

1187
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,533
that's gonna cause a lot
of neurological damage,

1188
01:01:50,461 --> 01:01:51,490
whether it's herbal or not.

1189
01:01:53,184 --> 01:01:57,453
But I don't know if like
Vermatox or something like that.

1190
01:01:57,453 --> 01:01:59,840
You could always go ahead and try that.

1191
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,423
There's nothing wrong with
trying, but basically,

1192
01:02:03,322 --> 01:02:07,080
that's the kind of animal you
would put in your own freezer

1193
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,160
if you're getting to it too late to feel

1194
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,723
like your custom exempt
slaughterhouse will take it for you.

1195
01:02:14,248 --> 01:02:16,898
You can certainly slaughter
at home for your own use.

1196
01:02:18,788 --> 01:02:21,210
Deer worm is not gonna spread to a human,

1197
01:02:21,210 --> 01:02:24,420
so it's very safe to go
ahead and slaughter for that,

1198
01:02:27,010 --> 01:02:30,361
and so that would be some of my advice.

1199
01:02:30,361 --> 01:02:32,410
And then, as I said, as
far as your breeding stock

1200
01:02:32,410 --> 01:02:36,689
that is producing those
organic lambs and kids,

1201
01:02:36,689 --> 01:02:39,773
if they're not in the
last third of gestation,

1202
01:02:40,761 --> 01:02:42,665
you can use it on them

1203
01:02:42,665 --> 01:02:44,770
without jeopardizing their future ability

1204
01:02:44,770 --> 01:02:47,023
to raise organic lambs and kids.

1205
01:02:48,050 --> 01:02:52,950
But again, talk to your
certifying organization

1206
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:56,150
and your inspector when
you have an animal go down

1207
01:02:56,150 --> 01:02:58,900
with deer worm to figure out
what's gonna be allowable.

1208
01:03:00,355 --> 01:03:03,609
And this was an infected
deer or goat at my farm,

1209
01:03:03,609 --> 01:03:06,437
and you can see that she's
improved in five days.

1210
01:03:06,437 --> 01:03:08,404
She hasn't improved completely,

1211
01:03:08,404 --> 01:03:09,740
and she never improved completely,

1212
01:03:09,740 --> 01:03:11,823
but she was pregnant at this time.

1213
01:03:12,694 --> 01:03:14,380
She was in early gestation.

1214
01:03:14,380 --> 01:03:17,172
She had just gotten bred,
and she did produce,

1215
01:03:17,172 --> 01:03:18,005
I think, three more litters,

1216
01:03:18,005 --> 01:03:20,527
and then we culled her
after the third litter.

1217
01:03:21,945 --> 01:03:24,413
For each litter, she would
go down for a day or two

1218
01:03:24,413 --> 01:03:27,190
before kidding, and then by the last one,

1219
01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:30,534
she was going down about a week earlier,

1220
01:03:30,534 --> 01:03:31,600
and we went, "It's time.

1221
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,973
That nerve damage is building up.

1222
01:03:35,122 --> 01:03:37,307
It's time for us to cull her."

1223
01:03:42,449 --> 01:03:44,099
We're now gonna go into part two.

1224
01:03:45,130 --> 01:03:48,109
And are there any questions
on this first part

1225
01:03:48,109 --> 01:03:49,563
for Betsy or for me first?

1226
01:03:52,646 --> 01:03:54,292
And one thing, actually, Betsy,

1227
01:03:54,292 --> 01:03:57,010
if we could share a screen for a minute,

1228
01:03:57,010 --> 01:04:00,790
I can show the NOFA New
York list of organic

1229
01:04:02,031 --> 01:04:07,031
or of allowable things
for parasites, okay?

1230
01:04:11,612 --> 01:04:13,640
So Betsy, should I hit share screen now?

1231
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:14,940
- Yeah, if you have it up.

1232
01:04:17,222 --> 01:04:18,055
- [Tatiana] Okay.

1233
01:04:20,123 --> 01:04:21,153
- You have it up so you can share it.

1234
01:04:22,425 --> 01:04:23,893
- [Tatiana] Okay. Can people see this?

1235
01:04:27,146 --> 01:04:29,080
- I can see it. I can see it.
- I can see it.

1236
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:32,992
- Can't see the whole
thing, but I can see some.

1237
01:04:32,992 --> 01:04:34,674
- [Tatiana] We will send this out.

1238
01:04:34,674 --> 01:04:38,377
If Kelsey's okay with this, we
will send this out to people.

1239
01:04:38,377 --> 01:04:40,877
So I would tend to avoid
for trying anything with,

1240
01:04:41,745 --> 01:04:45,494
for deer worm, I would tend
to avoid black walnut hulls

1241
01:04:45,494 --> 01:04:48,122
in that situation, and again, as I said,

1242
01:04:48,122 --> 01:04:49,650
copper oxide wire particles

1243
01:04:49,650 --> 01:04:52,403
are not gonna work in that situation,

1244
01:04:55,022 --> 01:04:58,250
but you can be looking at some
of these other possibilities.

1245
01:05:19,210 --> 01:05:23,127
You could try your Vermatox
or possibly your Nematox.

1246
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,756
But if you don't see much improvement,

1247
01:05:33,756 --> 01:05:35,978
then I think the main thing would be to go

1248
01:05:35,978 --> 01:05:37,953
with your chemical ones, unfortunately.

1249
01:05:41,144 --> 01:05:43,294
So I think prevention
is a huge part of it,

1250
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:45,680
and a lot of prevention,

1251
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,253
if you have guardian dogs on your farm,

1252
01:05:50,283 --> 01:05:51,420
having a way where your guardian dogs

1253
01:05:51,420 --> 01:05:55,663
can patrol a lot of your pastures,

1254
01:05:55,663 --> 01:05:57,940
as well as the pasture
they're currently in

1255
01:05:57,940 --> 01:06:00,693
with the animals and
then, over the winter,

1256
01:06:01,897 --> 01:06:04,620
really figuring out where
your deer are bedding,

1257
01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:08,706
and if your family dog and
you can go out to those areas

1258
01:06:08,706 --> 01:06:12,019
and really discourage 'em
from bedding in any areas

1259
01:06:12,019 --> 01:06:14,019
that are areas that you're pastoring in,

1260
01:06:14,886 --> 01:06:15,823
that can be helpful.

1261
01:06:24,776 --> 01:06:28,084
We had farmers who went from
being part time on the farm

1262
01:06:28,084 --> 01:06:30,583
to being full time on
the farm and said that,

1263
01:06:31,708 --> 01:06:33,247
"Hey, when we became full time,

1264
01:06:33,247 --> 01:06:34,080
we were active enough here

1265
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:37,077
that the deer just really
cleared out of the pastures."

1266
01:06:42,148 --> 01:06:44,221
Steve Gabriel did a study.

1267
01:06:44,221 --> 01:06:47,198
I think their Wellspring Farm did a study,

1268
01:06:47,198 --> 01:06:49,016
and I can send you all the link for it,

1269
01:06:49,016 --> 01:06:51,600
where they were looking
at using their ducks

1270
01:06:54,330 --> 01:06:58,593
in their grazing paddocks
that their sheep were in.

1271
01:07:00,137 --> 01:07:02,583
And Betsy, I'll stop sharing this screen

1272
01:07:02,583 --> 01:07:04,883
and see if I can bring up
their screen for a minute.

1273
01:07:07,740 --> 01:07:09,440
Okay, stop share.
- There you go.

1274
01:07:10,610 --> 01:07:11,810
- And then share screen.

1275
01:07:19,203 --> 01:07:21,601
Oh, I don't see it.

1276
01:07:21,601 --> 01:07:23,793
- Which one are you wanting
to share? I might have it up.

1277
01:07:25,437 --> 01:07:28,833
- So they have a PDF of
their report of what their-

1278
01:07:30,114 --> 01:07:31,129
- Yeah.

1279
01:07:31,129 --> 01:07:32,270
- Their duck studies with their mushrooms

1280
01:07:32,270 --> 01:07:34,593
and then also with their deer worm.

1281
01:07:40,218 --> 01:07:41,593
- I can find it if you give me a minute.

1282
01:07:48,299 --> 01:07:51,113
'Cause I had it up earlier.
- Oh, wait, here it is.

1283
01:07:51,113 --> 01:07:51,946
I have it.

1284
01:07:51,946 --> 01:07:56,479
So let me go back and
see if I can share screen

1285
01:07:56,479 --> 01:07:57,323
and get this one up.

1286
01:07:59,109 --> 01:07:59,942
Yeah, here. Okay.

1287
01:08:06,954 --> 01:08:09,766
And so the main thing
that they were finding,

1288
01:08:09,766 --> 01:08:12,406
they had a lot of trouble
monitoring the slug

1289
01:08:12,406 --> 01:08:15,123
and snail population in their paddocks.

1290
01:08:15,123 --> 01:08:17,413
So that made the study
really challenging for them,

1291
01:08:18,257 --> 01:08:21,033
and then it did appear
that while the ducks

1292
01:08:21,033 --> 01:08:22,883
would bring the slug population down,

1293
01:08:24,746 --> 01:08:27,563
whenever the ducks got put into a paddock,

1294
01:08:27,563 --> 01:08:30,778
that the population would
recover really quickly.

1295
01:08:30,778 --> 01:08:34,000
So these arrows are when the ducks went

1296
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,780
into specific paddocks,
and then you can see,

1297
01:08:37,780 --> 01:08:42,780
like with this blue line, how
the slugs quickly recovered,

1298
01:08:44,274 --> 01:08:45,203
and with this yellow,

1299
01:08:45,203 --> 01:08:47,583
I think it really only
stayed down for four days.

1300
01:08:52,072 --> 01:08:53,450
They were like that if it was a lot

1301
01:08:54,573 --> 01:08:57,457
of trouble moving the ducks through there,

1302
01:08:57,457 --> 01:09:00,490
and there was a whole bunch of
trouble and time spent trying

1303
01:09:00,490 --> 01:09:02,743
to monitor how many slugs were out there.

1304
01:09:03,879 --> 01:09:07,340
So they weren't saying that,
"Oh, forget about using ducks

1305
01:09:07,340 --> 01:09:09,443
or forget about using Guinea hens."

1306
01:09:12,779 --> 01:09:14,240
But they were just saying that

1307
01:09:15,854 --> 01:09:17,719
for the bang you got for your buck,

1308
01:09:17,719 --> 01:09:20,312
unless you were already gonna
be pastoring your ducks,

1309
01:09:20,312 --> 01:09:22,610
it probably wasn't worth it to buy ducks

1310
01:09:22,610 --> 01:09:25,523
and bring ducks in
specifically for that purpose.

1311
01:09:29,867 --> 01:09:31,940
And so unfortunately,
that was their results

1312
01:09:31,940 --> 01:09:33,963
was that the slugs did come down.

1313
01:09:35,032 --> 01:09:36,847
I know that our farm,

1314
01:09:36,847 --> 01:09:39,365
the main thing that has
helped is just making it

1315
01:09:39,365 --> 01:09:42,343
where the deer are not comfortable
being in those pastures.

1316
01:09:46,601 --> 01:09:50,047
We used to do great with
just our farm dogs patrolling

1317
01:09:51,316 --> 01:09:53,883
and us taking walks out
there in the wintertime,

1318
01:09:55,015 --> 01:09:56,170
just keeping the deer off our land

1319
01:09:56,170 --> 01:09:57,663
and on our neighbor's land,

1320
01:09:58,753 --> 01:10:00,009
and then it became a problem

1321
01:10:00,009 --> 01:10:04,430
when our neighbors started
raising beef cattle on the land.

1322
01:10:04,430 --> 01:10:06,030
Then the deer pressure was such

1323
01:10:06,030 --> 01:10:08,773
that the deer started coming
back over to our place.

1324
01:10:11,463 --> 01:10:12,923
Okay, so I'm gonna stop share.

1325
01:10:13,868 --> 01:10:17,203
But any prevention type stuff
you can do using your dogs,

1326
01:10:18,634 --> 01:10:19,467
the best thing is to try

1327
01:10:19,467 --> 01:10:22,183
and get that prevention going if possible.

1328
01:10:23,832 --> 01:10:26,902
Just get it so your white-tailed
deer are not happy there

1329
01:10:26,902 --> 01:10:28,940
and also knowing that
the first time you come

1330
01:10:28,940 --> 01:10:30,693
into a new brush area,

1331
01:10:31,881 --> 01:10:34,173
that's when your problem's
gonna be the worst,

1332
01:10:35,113 --> 01:10:38,793
when you're coming into a
new area bordering the woods

1333
01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:45,480
or partially in the woods or into a pass

1334
01:10:45,765 --> 01:10:48,233
or when you're renovating
an area with your goats,

1335
01:10:50,540 --> 01:10:53,023
that's gonna be the worst year usually,

1336
01:10:54,009 --> 01:10:54,842
that first year.

1337
01:10:55,821 --> 01:10:57,883
Okay.
- I tried it with geese,

1338
01:10:58,745 --> 01:11:01,710
but the geese were hard
to keep where I wanted 'em

1339
01:11:01,710 --> 01:11:05,204
to be eating the slugs,
but the idea was great,

1340
01:11:05,204 --> 01:11:07,073
but the practicality of
it was really difficult.

1341
01:11:09,586 --> 01:11:14,586
- Yeah, and as I said, we
will make the link to Steven.

1342
01:11:18,961 --> 01:11:20,481
Is it Elizabeth?

1343
01:11:20,481 --> 01:11:23,533
Gabriel's study that they
did with Sarah on that.

1344
01:11:25,158 --> 01:11:27,870
Okay, so knowing your weapons, and so-

1345
01:11:27,870 --> 01:11:30,508
- Tatiana, sorry, do you
mind if I just hop in?

1346
01:11:30,508 --> 01:11:31,431
There's a bunch of questions

1347
01:11:31,431 --> 01:11:32,523
about whether VOF
- Sure.

1348
01:11:33,450 --> 01:11:36,600
- has a similar list that's
great like that NOFA,

1349
01:11:38,238 --> 01:11:39,188
NOFA New York list.

1350
01:11:40,039 --> 01:11:43,051
And I did I posted a link to VOF's page.

1351
01:11:43,051 --> 01:11:45,180
It looks like they don't
keep a list on the website

1352
01:11:45,180 --> 01:11:48,373
because it's a live document
and they update it frequently,

1353
01:11:49,473 --> 01:11:51,879
and so they're saying on that
website, the best thing to do,

1354
01:11:51,879 --> 01:11:55,210
if you want a list of
those approved materials,

1355
01:11:55,210 --> 01:11:57,905
that you should reach
out to the VOF office

1356
01:11:57,905 --> 01:11:59,723
for their most up to date list,

1357
01:12:01,061 --> 01:12:01,894
and they'll send it out to you.

1358
01:12:03,073 --> 01:12:05,620
Yeah, I'll share these resources
that you're touching on

1359
01:12:05,620 --> 01:12:07,369
after the webinar by you.
- And actually,

1360
01:12:07,369 --> 01:12:10,173
when I talked to Kyla today,

1361
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:15,647
they were saying that their
agreement with NOFA New York

1362
01:12:16,524 --> 01:12:19,555
is they actually use
the NOFA New York list.

1363
01:12:19,555 --> 01:12:20,504
- Oh, great.

1364
01:12:20,504 --> 01:12:23,962
- So you have that NOFA New
York list and can send it on.

1365
01:12:23,962 --> 01:12:25,600
And then what both NOFA New York

1366
01:12:26,494 --> 01:12:29,476
and what VOF said was to please,

1367
01:12:29,476 --> 01:12:33,730
when you go to treat a deer
worm animal or another animal,

1368
01:12:33,730 --> 01:12:36,154
let your inspector know right away

1369
01:12:36,154 --> 01:12:38,554
because things could've
changed from day to day.

1370
01:12:40,447 --> 01:12:43,160
And I noticed on the VOF website

1371
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:45,233
and on the NOFA New York website,

1372
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:49,430
if you go to the original
fact sheets under resources

1373
01:12:50,506 --> 01:12:53,810
for starting a dairy or
starting a sheep or goat dairy

1374
01:12:54,934 --> 01:12:57,006
or a sheep or goat meat operation,

1375
01:12:57,006 --> 01:13:00,185
it still lists ivermectin
as being allowable,

1376
01:13:00,185 --> 01:13:01,650
and it doesn't list Cydectin in at all.

1377
01:13:01,650 --> 01:13:06,023
So by allowable, meaning
in an emergency situation,

1378
01:13:07,273 --> 01:13:11,247
that you can use it on a breeder
animal or a dairy animal,

1379
01:13:11,247 --> 01:13:14,520
but you still could not
use it on a meat animal

1380
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:17,853
and have that meat animal
harvested as organic.

1381
01:13:19,242 --> 01:13:21,406
So because it does change all the time,

1382
01:13:21,406 --> 01:13:22,239
it's really important to check

1383
01:13:22,239 --> 01:13:24,783
with your inspector on what's allowable.

1384
01:13:27,103 --> 01:13:28,503
- Great. Thank you.
- Okay.

1385
01:13:30,561 --> 01:13:32,461
So any more questions along that line?

1386
01:13:35,152 --> 01:13:37,213
And we will make those sheets available.

1387
01:13:39,979 --> 01:13:43,051
And so proper use of traditional weapons,

1388
01:13:43,051 --> 01:13:45,813
today, we're gonna go over
chemical dewormers a little bit.

1389
01:13:50,056 --> 01:13:50,889
And I think Christine is saying

1390
01:13:50,889 --> 01:13:53,673
that if you are a
VOF-certified organic farm,

1391
01:13:54,754 --> 01:13:55,700
that you can go to the portal

1392
01:13:55,700 --> 01:13:59,053
and find their list there as well.

1393
01:14:00,256 --> 01:14:03,080
And so we're gonna spend
a lot of time next week

1394
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:08,080
on pasture management, on
nutrition genetic selection

1395
01:14:09,084 --> 01:14:11,584
and the immune system, and
on selective deworming,

1396
01:14:12,856 --> 01:14:14,723
and then we'll also go into part three,

1397
01:14:16,308 --> 01:14:19,260
which is the newer things
that have been developed,

1398
01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:22,363
are things that are in the
pipeline that may be beneficial.

1399
01:14:23,777 --> 01:14:25,609
Okay, so today, again,

1400
01:14:25,609 --> 01:14:27,010
we'll just focus on the proper use

1401
01:14:27,010 --> 01:14:29,153
of your traditional weapons, okay?

1402
01:14:31,848 --> 01:14:32,820
And so chemical dewormers,

1403
01:14:32,820 --> 01:14:36,503
a valuable limited resource
that must be managed properly,

1404
01:14:37,912 --> 01:14:40,322
and they may not be available to you,

1405
01:14:40,322 --> 01:14:42,763
particularly if you're
certified organic, okay?

1406
01:14:43,775 --> 01:14:48,423
Next, there's three drug
families. Go ahead and hit enter.

1407
01:14:50,051 --> 01:14:51,853
Okay, you have your benzimidazoles.

1408
01:14:54,721 --> 01:14:57,820
They're usually known as
your white paste dewormers,

1409
01:14:57,820 --> 01:15:02,510
and most of these are pretty safe to use

1410
01:15:04,333 --> 01:15:06,433
because they have been around a long time.

1411
01:15:07,790 --> 01:15:10,360
The original one was thiabendazole.

1412
01:15:13,116 --> 01:15:15,516
There is a lot of resistance
showing up to them,

1413
01:15:16,461 --> 01:15:19,350
and then we have our nicotinics,

1414
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:20,183
which would be things

1415
01:15:20,183 --> 01:15:22,873
like your levamisole and your morantel,

1416
01:15:24,048 --> 01:15:26,070
and we'll talk more about those.

1417
01:15:26,070 --> 01:15:27,123
In the old days,

1418
01:15:28,058 --> 01:15:31,023
people used to use chewing
tobacco as a dewormer.

1419
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:33,360
It can be pretty toxic at times,

1420
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:35,410
and it's hard to know what dose is right,

1421
01:15:36,533 --> 01:15:39,060
but that's been used, and then
the third family available

1422
01:15:39,060 --> 01:15:40,490
to us in the United States,

1423
01:15:40,490 --> 01:15:44,863
the third chemical family
available is your macrolides,

1424
01:15:45,898 --> 01:15:47,434
which include your ivermectin

1425
01:15:47,434 --> 01:15:50,350
and your Cydectin and various other drugs,

1426
01:15:50,350 --> 01:15:53,493
and so we'll talk about those
in individual detail next.

1427
01:15:57,147 --> 01:16:00,563
All right, so your white
trenches, go ahead. Yeah.

1428
01:16:02,149 --> 01:16:04,682
They hit most of your strongyle worms,

1429
01:16:04,682 --> 01:16:07,090
most of those gastrointestinal
worms that reside either

1430
01:16:07,090 --> 01:16:09,873
in the abomasum or in the intestines.

1431
01:16:10,902 --> 01:16:12,623
They have a wide margin of safety.

1432
01:16:14,286 --> 01:16:16,820
They're fairly effective against tapeworm.

1433
01:16:16,820 --> 01:16:19,770
Now, not all of these will
actually kill the tapeworm head.

1434
01:16:24,500 --> 01:16:28,714
But as we said, tapeworm,
usually with tapeworm,

1435
01:16:28,714 --> 01:16:31,781
you're just trying to
knock it back a little bit.

1436
01:16:31,781 --> 01:16:34,528
And it's like coccidia in that animals

1437
01:16:34,528 --> 01:16:37,171
will normally develop a resistance to it.

1438
01:16:37,171 --> 01:16:39,530
You're only gonna see it as a
problem really that first year

1439
01:16:39,530 --> 01:16:41,230
of life and in animals

1440
01:16:41,230 --> 01:16:45,373
that are really compromised nutritionally.

1441
01:16:47,220 --> 01:16:50,217
People will say, "Oh, my
goat died from tapeworms,"

1442
01:16:52,392 --> 01:16:53,270
and it can.

1443
01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:56,833
We did mention that overeating issue,

1444
01:16:56,833 --> 01:16:59,010
disease issue that can
happen, but for the most part,

1445
01:16:59,010 --> 01:17:01,864
what's happening is the
same time the animal

1446
01:17:01,864 --> 01:17:04,270
gets heavily infected with tapeworms,

1447
01:17:04,270 --> 01:17:07,545
it gets infected with your strongyle worms

1448
01:17:07,545 --> 01:17:08,378
at the same time.

1449
01:17:08,378 --> 01:17:10,390
So it really could've
been the barber pole worm

1450
01:17:11,508 --> 01:17:12,580
or brown stomach worm or something else

1451
01:17:12,580 --> 01:17:14,960
that was the actual kill,

1452
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:16,793
but what you saw were the tapeworms.

1453
01:17:18,150 --> 01:17:21,170
Okay, the Valbazen,
the neat thing about it

1454
01:17:21,170 --> 01:17:25,013
is it is the only one of
these that's fairly effective

1455
01:17:25,013 --> 01:17:29,615
against adult liver flute,
less so on your immature fluke,

1456
01:17:29,615 --> 01:17:30,640
but the big problem with it is it

1457
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:33,353
should not be administered
to pregnant animals.

1458
01:17:34,696 --> 01:17:35,529
Okay, next.

1459
01:17:39,034 --> 01:17:41,084
If you go back there a second, I'm sorry.

1460
01:17:43,255 --> 01:17:44,270
I guess that's about it.

1461
01:17:44,270 --> 01:17:49,033
Your oxfendazole, which is your Synantic,

1462
01:17:50,325 --> 01:17:53,223
isn't licensed for sheep
and goats, I don't think.

1463
01:17:55,116 --> 01:17:56,210
And if you're already
- I don't think so either.

1464
01:17:56,210 --> 01:17:59,823
- [Tatiana] to the other, it
won't be that helpful usually.

1465
01:18:01,180 --> 01:18:04,703
Okay, next slide. Okay,
so your nicotinics.

1466
01:18:07,289 --> 01:18:09,537
A lot of these are sold as oral dewormers,

1467
01:18:13,218 --> 01:18:14,568
your Goat Pellet and stuff.

1468
01:18:15,477 --> 01:18:17,380
And several of these are only effective

1469
01:18:17,380 --> 01:18:20,520
against adult worms because we'll go

1470
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:24,163
into a life cycle later on
with your strongyle worms,

1471
01:18:25,188 --> 01:18:27,370
and some of these worms
are immature stages

1472
01:18:27,370 --> 01:18:30,573
aren't capable of
hibernating in the animal,

1473
01:18:32,995 --> 01:18:34,403
hibernating in your sheep or goat.

1474
01:18:35,992 --> 01:18:37,960
When they hibernate,
they're much harder to kill

1475
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,093
because their metabolism slows down.

1476
01:18:41,189 --> 01:18:44,110
So of your nicotinics, it's
really only your levamisole

1477
01:18:45,068 --> 01:18:47,493
that's effective against
these hibernating larvae.

1478
01:18:48,664 --> 01:18:49,500
The levamisole,

1479
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:52,101
of all these commercially
available dewormers,

1480
01:18:52,101 --> 01:18:54,593
probably has the narrowest
margin of safety,

1481
01:18:55,618 --> 01:18:57,449
especially the injectable products.

1482
01:18:57,449 --> 01:18:58,550
So you do wanna be pretty careful

1483
01:18:58,550 --> 01:19:00,170
of the weight of your animals

1484
01:19:01,186 --> 01:19:02,643
and following that label pretty cleanly.

1485
01:19:04,037 --> 01:19:06,160
And it's marketed as Prohibit nowadays

1486
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:07,983
as well as levamisole.

1487
01:19:10,491 --> 01:19:11,786
Next slide.

1488
01:19:11,786 --> 01:19:14,916
And okay, and then you
have your macrolides,

1489
01:19:14,916 --> 01:19:16,360
and this was the last class

1490
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,815
that was made available
in the United States,

1491
01:19:19,815 --> 01:19:23,144
and that was years and years
ago that it was made available.

1492
01:19:23,144 --> 01:19:26,714
Again, broad spectrum,
wide margin of safety.

1493
01:19:26,714 --> 01:19:28,073
It's effective against sucking,

1494
01:19:29,124 --> 01:19:31,053
lice as well, so that's a plus on it.

1495
01:19:32,770 --> 01:19:36,507
Of these, Cydectin was the
newest drug of that group,

1496
01:19:36,507 --> 01:19:39,003
and again, that was years and years ago,

1497
01:19:39,003 --> 01:19:42,145
and it was really good at killing eggs,

1498
01:19:42,145 --> 01:19:43,773
and so it was gonna be
the miracle dewormer.

1499
01:19:44,792 --> 01:19:46,640
And unfortunately, animals
built up resistance

1500
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:49,913
to this class of dewormers pretty quickly,

1501
01:19:51,689 --> 01:19:54,970
in part because of just the genes

1502
01:19:54,970 --> 01:19:59,970
that are involved for
this, and if people want,

1503
01:20:00,772 --> 01:20:02,922
at some point, we can
talk about that more.

1504
01:20:04,530 --> 01:20:06,223
It is a co-dominance thing,

1505
01:20:07,194 --> 01:20:11,669
and so happens if the mother
worm has inherited the gene

1506
01:20:11,669 --> 01:20:14,380
for resistance and the father worm hasn't

1507
01:20:14,380 --> 01:20:15,833
and they crossbreed,

1508
01:20:16,891 --> 01:20:19,039
there's a good chance of their offspring

1509
01:20:19,039 --> 01:20:21,670
inheriting the dominant
gene from one parent

1510
01:20:21,670 --> 01:20:24,203
and the non-dominant gene
from the other parent.

1511
01:20:25,247 --> 01:20:27,623
And because this is a
co-dominant situation,

1512
01:20:28,898 --> 01:20:30,600
even if the baby worm hasn't gotten both

1513
01:20:32,988 --> 01:20:34,693
of the dominant genes,

1514
01:20:35,766 --> 01:20:38,473
it still has some
resistance to the dewormer.

1515
01:20:39,611 --> 01:20:40,444
And unfortunately,

1516
01:20:40,444 --> 01:20:43,320
ivermectin was set up to be
used as a pour-on initially

1517
01:20:44,516 --> 01:20:47,423
or as an injectable, which
meant that it was staying

1518
01:20:47,423 --> 01:20:49,883
in the body in a low dose for a long time.

1519
01:20:50,860 --> 01:20:52,060
And so, as the animal would get infected

1520
01:20:52,060 --> 01:20:55,303
with worms every day as
they're out on pasture,

1521
01:20:58,236 --> 01:20:59,870
the genetic pool of worms was selected

1522
01:20:59,870 --> 01:21:03,433
for this co-dominance, as
well as for this dominance.

1523
01:21:04,344 --> 01:21:07,223
If the animal carried even
one gene for dominance,

1524
01:21:08,135 --> 01:21:10,729
that worm was better able to survive

1525
01:21:10,729 --> 01:21:13,029
than those worms that
carried than those worms

1526
01:21:16,682 --> 01:21:19,370
that had inherited neither
of the dominant genes

1527
01:21:19,370 --> 01:21:20,823
from either of their parents,

1528
01:21:21,696 --> 01:21:24,196
and so it built up in the
population very quickly,

1529
01:21:25,066 --> 01:21:30,066
this ability to carry
these dominant genes.

1530
01:21:30,076 --> 01:21:32,943
And so that's why ivermectin
worked for so little time,

1531
01:21:34,350 --> 01:21:36,570
as opposed to your levamisole,

1532
01:21:36,570 --> 01:21:39,902
which its most common
way that barber pole worm

1533
01:21:39,902 --> 01:21:43,215
stays resistant to it is
through a double recessive.

1534
01:21:43,215 --> 01:21:44,500
So you have to build up a whole bunch

1535
01:21:44,500 --> 01:21:47,253
of the recessives in the population.

1536
01:21:49,393 --> 01:21:51,293
Okay, so I'll stop talking about that.

1537
01:21:52,462 --> 01:21:53,900
- Well, I wanted to
mention that when you go

1538
01:21:54,971 --> 01:21:56,863
to the feed store to buy a dewormer,

1539
01:21:57,721 --> 01:21:59,963
about the only thing you
can often get is ivermectin,

1540
01:21:59,963 --> 01:22:04,051
and it may not be effective
at all in your flock or herd.

1541
01:22:04,051 --> 01:22:06,776
So you need to look for a source

1542
01:22:06,776 --> 01:22:09,730
of some different dewormers,
like in mail order

1543
01:22:09,730 --> 01:22:12,120
or the veterinarian or something

1544
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,563
so that you can have some choices.

1545
01:22:16,059 --> 01:22:18,863
- [Tatiana] Right. Okay, next slide.

1546
01:22:20,498 --> 01:22:21,331
Okay, right.

1547
01:22:21,331 --> 01:22:25,690
So often you may be ordering
these through the mail

1548
01:22:25,690 --> 01:22:28,495
through Jeffers or Valley Vet,

1549
01:22:28,495 --> 01:22:31,054
or there's a whole bunch
of different companies

1550
01:22:31,054 --> 01:22:33,000
or through your veterinarian.

1551
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:37,739
We're almost always using these
with extra label drug use,

1552
01:22:37,739 --> 01:22:39,070
which means that we're
using 'em differently

1553
01:22:39,070 --> 01:22:44,070
than the FDA label on that dewormer bottle

1554
01:22:45,967 --> 01:22:49,043
or that dewormer envelope
says how to use it.

1555
01:22:50,351 --> 01:22:53,593
Only fenbendazole, when
it's marketed as Safeguard,

1556
01:22:55,081 --> 01:23:00,081
morantel, and albendazole
are FDA approved for goats,

1557
01:23:00,202 --> 01:23:02,650
and albendazole is actually only approved

1558
01:23:02,650 --> 01:23:04,423
for goats for liver fluke, okay?

1559
01:23:08,151 --> 01:23:09,504
And when it comes to sheep,

1560
01:23:09,504 --> 01:23:11,002
it's not really much better.

1561
01:23:11,002 --> 01:23:14,113
Only albendazole, your Ivomec drench,

1562
01:23:15,163 --> 01:23:18,220
your Cydectin drench, and your levamisole

1563
01:23:19,325 --> 01:23:20,675
are FDA approved for sheep.

1564
01:23:22,799 --> 01:23:26,443
And Safeguard is approved
for mountain sheep,

1565
01:23:28,996 --> 01:23:33,063
but it's actually not
approved for regular sheep,

1566
01:23:33,063 --> 01:23:35,470
but veterinarians often do use it,

1567
01:23:35,470 --> 01:23:38,090
but you have to remember that the livers

1568
01:23:38,090 --> 01:23:39,860
are very likely to be condemned

1569
01:23:39,860 --> 01:23:44,030
and that the withdrawal
period is actually really long

1570
01:23:44,890 --> 01:23:49,717
if you've used Safeguard because it seems

1571
01:23:49,717 --> 01:23:51,213
to linger in the liver of sheep.

1572
01:23:52,303 --> 01:23:53,136
- At least you can use the Valbazen,

1573
01:23:53,136 --> 01:23:54,883
which is the same family.

1574
01:23:55,930 --> 01:23:58,212
- [Tatiana] Right, right.

1575
01:23:58,212 --> 01:24:01,935
And you go, "Well, why
isn't the Valbazen lingering

1576
01:24:01,935 --> 01:24:02,768
in the livers?"

1577
01:24:05,423 --> 01:24:07,346
It'd be nice if they
did a few more studies

1578
01:24:07,346 --> 01:24:09,052
and really verified a lot of this.

1579
01:24:09,052 --> 01:24:13,413
And the use of a product that
it's different from its label,

1580
01:24:13,413 --> 01:24:16,963
as I said earlier, is what
we call extra label drug use,

1581
01:24:17,970 --> 01:24:20,070
and it requires a veterinary prescription.

1582
01:24:22,056 --> 01:24:25,445
And as part of that
veterinary prescription,

1583
01:24:25,445 --> 01:24:26,840
you have to have a valid veterinarian

1584
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:28,913
and patient client relationship.

1585
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:33,600
And so that's where getting
to know a veterinarian

1586
01:24:34,449 --> 01:24:37,133
and having 'em come out
to your farm once a year

1587
01:24:37,133 --> 01:24:39,140
for at least a well animal
check where they just go

1588
01:24:39,140 --> 01:24:41,058
through and see your farm.

1589
01:24:41,058 --> 01:24:42,764
I know in New York,

1590
01:24:42,764 --> 01:24:44,380
we have the New York State Sheep

1591
01:24:46,018 --> 01:24:48,107
and Goat Health Assurance Program,

1592
01:24:48,107 --> 01:24:51,040
and so the state will
actually pay for the state vet

1593
01:24:52,214 --> 01:24:55,474
and your vet to come out and meet with you

1594
01:24:55,474 --> 01:24:57,470
at your farm for about an hour.

1595
01:24:57,470 --> 01:24:58,760
I think the first visit,

1596
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:01,480
they're allowed to meet
with you for two hours,

1597
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:02,510
and then after that,

1598
01:25:02,510 --> 01:25:05,493
they're really only paying for
an hour of your vet's time.

1599
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,840
But most of that actually
ends up being in your house,

1600
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:13,361
asking you what your goals are,

1601
01:25:13,361 --> 01:25:15,139
are you trying to eradicate Johne's,

1602
01:25:15,139 --> 01:25:16,773
are parasites your big issue,

1603
01:25:17,669 --> 01:25:20,080
and coming up with a plan of attack

1604
01:25:21,018 --> 01:25:22,918
for how you're gonna deal with issues.

1605
01:25:24,502 --> 01:25:27,482
But they do go through
your herd as part of that,

1606
01:25:27,482 --> 01:25:29,300
but this would not help
you out in emergencies,

1607
01:25:29,300 --> 01:25:33,540
but at least it makes you
have one visit from your vet

1608
01:25:34,662 --> 01:25:35,540
that's almost a well animal visit

1609
01:25:35,540 --> 01:25:38,163
where they're just coming
and seeing how things are.

1610
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:42,630
And then when you use
these things off label,

1611
01:25:42,630 --> 01:25:45,800
your veterinarian will
normally check with FARAD,

1612
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,963
the Food Animal Residual
Avoidance Database,

1613
01:25:50,700 --> 01:25:53,050
to see what the recommended
withdrawals are.

1614
01:25:53,050 --> 01:25:54,143
And unfortunately,

1615
01:25:55,104 --> 01:25:57,603
depending on who answers
their query with FARAD,

1616
01:25:58,653 --> 01:26:00,558
they can get different responses,

1617
01:26:00,558 --> 01:26:02,654
which can be really frustrating.

1618
01:26:02,654 --> 01:26:05,454
And there used to be a
frequently asked question section

1619
01:26:06,588 --> 01:26:08,330
of FARAD that did go through some

1620
01:26:08,330 --> 01:26:10,213
of the withdrawals and stuff,

1621
01:26:11,159 --> 01:26:14,300
but I noticed that they've
changed that section now,

1622
01:26:14,300 --> 01:26:17,396
and the frequently asked
questions are different,

1623
01:26:17,396 --> 01:26:19,646
and they're no longer
stating those questions

1624
01:26:20,637 --> 01:26:24,323
that answered what a
veterinarian had said already,

1625
01:26:25,471 --> 01:26:27,321
what FARAD had said already as far as

1626
01:26:28,410 --> 01:26:30,911
how long before you use the milk

1627
01:26:30,911 --> 01:26:33,408
from an animal that got
Safeguard and stuff.

1628
01:26:33,408 --> 01:26:36,200
So it's a bit frustrating that you

1629
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:39,000
can't always get the
same response depending

1630
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:40,823
on who you talk to there.

1631
01:26:42,900 --> 01:26:43,743
Next slide.

1632
01:26:47,356 --> 01:26:51,275
So, as we said, there's
few that are now available

1633
01:26:51,275 --> 01:26:52,680
for sheep and goats, and many of those,

1634
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,830
because they've been used year after year

1635
01:26:56,943 --> 01:26:58,893
and sometimes just pretty much overused

1636
01:27:00,090 --> 01:27:05,090
or are used in such a
way that, unfortunately,

1637
01:27:07,247 --> 01:27:11,704
we develop more resistance
in our animals to 'em.

1638
01:27:11,704 --> 01:27:15,146
They often don't work as well as the label

1639
01:27:15,146 --> 01:27:17,143
would indicate they're gonna work.

1640
01:27:17,143 --> 01:27:19,220
And so for goats, we usually
say you should be using one

1641
01:27:19,220 --> 01:27:21,840
and a half to two times
the sheer cattle dose

1642
01:27:23,172 --> 01:27:26,053
per live weight pound of that animal.

1643
01:27:27,576 --> 01:27:30,326
And this is because goats
have a faster rate of passage

1644
01:27:31,277 --> 01:27:33,940
of things they digest
through their system,

1645
01:27:33,940 --> 01:27:34,880
and they have larger livers

1646
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:39,600
that break down chemicals
quicker than those

1647
01:27:40,450 --> 01:27:42,873
of sheep or cattle for their size.

1648
01:27:44,504 --> 01:27:46,813
And pour-on works poorly
in goats and sheep,

1649
01:27:46,813 --> 01:27:48,700
and so we usually aren't
recommending the use

1650
01:27:48,700 --> 01:27:50,813
of a dewormer as a pour-on.

1651
01:27:53,233 --> 01:27:56,050
We usually say that
because the same thing,

1652
01:27:56,050 --> 01:27:58,023
that they shouldn't be injected,

1653
01:27:59,314 --> 01:28:02,540
that instead, giving 'em
orally is the best thing to do.

1654
01:28:02,540 --> 01:28:04,796
And you wanna give 'em behind the tongue

1655
01:28:04,796 --> 01:28:07,130
so that the dewormer goes to the rumen.

1656
01:28:07,130 --> 01:28:10,108
If it goes towards the
front of the tongue,

1657
01:28:10,108 --> 01:28:12,363
the animal has the opportunity to go,

1658
01:28:12,363 --> 01:28:16,553
"This tastes awful,"
and have a gag response,

1659
01:28:17,781 --> 01:28:20,231
and the gag response, just
like in a baby animal,

1660
01:28:22,131 --> 01:28:23,999
just how in a baby animal,

1661
01:28:23,999 --> 01:28:26,255
liquids are shunted to the true stomach,

1662
01:28:26,255 --> 01:28:28,470
a gag effect will cause that dewormer

1663
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:30,923
to be shunted to the true stomach.

1664
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:33,483
- Sorry.
- Okay.

1665
01:28:34,969 --> 01:28:35,863
Yeah, if you can go back.

1666
01:28:38,810 --> 01:28:40,270
And if it goes to the true stomach,

1667
01:28:40,270 --> 01:28:42,547
it breaks down really quickly

1668
01:28:42,547 --> 01:28:44,211
in the acidity of the true stomach,

1669
01:28:44,211 --> 01:28:47,487
so you're usually wanting
it to go to the rumen first

1670
01:28:47,487 --> 01:28:49,946
so it lingers in the animal longer.

1671
01:28:49,946 --> 01:28:52,446
And then, of course, absorb
the withdrawal period.

1672
01:28:54,980 --> 01:28:59,540
You'll be getting links to
the American Consortiums

1673
01:28:59,540 --> 01:29:04,540
for Small Ruminant
Parasite Control website,

1674
01:29:05,559 --> 01:29:07,709
and they just updated
in, I think, October.

1675
01:29:08,604 --> 01:29:11,620
They updated their dewormer list for goats

1676
01:29:12,459 --> 01:29:14,789
and for sheep and for camelids,

1677
01:29:14,789 --> 01:29:17,289
and they talk to FARAD
when they update that list.

1678
01:29:18,378 --> 01:29:22,611
They talk to FARAD and get
recommendations from FARAD

1679
01:29:22,611 --> 01:29:24,816
of the withdrawals at that time

1680
01:29:24,816 --> 01:29:27,251
for the kind of dosages
they're recommending,

1681
01:29:27,251 --> 01:29:29,456
which are off-label dosages.

1682
01:29:29,456 --> 01:29:33,920
So we'll make sure that
you get a link to that.

1683
01:29:41,924 --> 01:29:44,753
And then dewormers in your feed or water,

1684
01:29:44,753 --> 01:29:46,047
the big problem with those,

1685
01:29:46,047 --> 01:29:49,156
and it's the same with your
coccidiostats in the water,

1686
01:29:49,156 --> 01:29:49,989
is it's hard to make sure

1687
01:29:49,989 --> 01:29:51,733
that each animal got the right dosage.

1688
01:29:52,608 --> 01:29:55,327
So that's why we often
like to give 'em directly,

1689
01:29:55,327 --> 01:29:57,577
orally directly into
the mouth of the animal.

1690
01:29:58,456 --> 01:29:59,289
Next slide.

1691
01:30:02,091 --> 01:30:06,360
Okay, if you're starting
to do see resistance then,

1692
01:30:08,556 --> 01:30:10,978
especially with your
white paste dewormers,

1693
01:30:10,978 --> 01:30:13,600
it seems efficient, seems
to help the efficiency

1694
01:30:14,623 --> 01:30:17,104
of that dewormer if you
can hold the animal off

1695
01:30:17,104 --> 01:30:19,820
of feed 16 hours before
you give the dewormer

1696
01:30:19,820 --> 01:30:22,173
and then for 12 hours afterwards.

1697
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,350
And so obviously, you wouldn't
do this kind of fasting

1698
01:30:26,350 --> 01:30:29,510
in late pregnancy because
you might cause the animal

1699
01:30:29,510 --> 01:30:31,863
to go into ketosis, okay?

1700
01:30:32,895 --> 01:30:35,059
And then also deworming twice,

1701
01:30:35,059 --> 01:30:38,580
so using that full dosage
twice 12 hours apart seems

1702
01:30:38,580 --> 01:30:43,580
to help the white drench
family to stay more effective.

1703
01:30:45,734 --> 01:30:48,940
And then deworming on the
same day with two dewormers

1704
01:30:48,940 --> 01:30:53,100
from two separate families can be helpful,

1705
01:30:53,100 --> 01:30:54,450
but you would only use that

1706
01:30:55,289 --> 01:30:56,737
when you're selectively deworming.

1707
01:30:56,737 --> 01:30:58,552
If you did that with your whole herd,

1708
01:30:58,552 --> 01:30:59,385
you would just be building

1709
01:30:59,385 --> 01:31:01,573
up dewormer resistance even faster.

1710
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:03,663
Next slide.

1711
01:31:05,989 --> 01:31:09,597
Okay, and then someone was
asking, I think, Christine,

1712
01:31:09,597 --> 01:31:11,874
you were asking about if you're bringing

1713
01:31:11,874 --> 01:31:16,852
in animals out of state,
and actually, Christine,

1714
01:31:16,852 --> 01:31:19,605
I would say if you're not an organic farm

1715
01:31:19,605 --> 01:31:23,076
and you're bringing in
animals from a different farm,

1716
01:31:23,076 --> 01:31:27,370
often doing that three,
what we often recommend

1717
01:31:27,370 --> 01:31:31,143
is to give all three dewormer
families to that animal,

1718
01:31:32,144 --> 01:31:33,954
and then compost that manure.

1719
01:31:33,954 --> 01:31:37,303
Don't spread that manure
out in your pastures

1720
01:31:37,303 --> 01:31:38,270
because the only worms that

1721
01:31:38,270 --> 01:31:40,760
are gonna survive those three families

1722
01:31:41,799 --> 01:31:45,424
are super worms that have built
up resistance to all three,

1723
01:31:45,424 --> 01:31:47,660
where the gene pool
has built up resistance

1724
01:31:47,660 --> 01:31:48,813
to all three dewormers,

1725
01:31:50,251 --> 01:31:52,490
and so you wouldn't want
that individual worm

1726
01:31:52,490 --> 01:31:54,940
to be putting out a whole
bunch of eggs on there.

1727
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:58,563
And then they're saying,

1728
01:31:59,899 --> 01:32:03,047
"Hey, they were given dewormer
prior to coming to our farm."

1729
01:32:04,486 --> 01:32:07,350
It all depends on how
effective the dewormer was.

1730
01:32:07,350 --> 01:32:09,720
Often, before you put
'em out on your pastures,

1731
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,550
it would be a good idea
to do a fecal sample

1732
01:32:13,643 --> 01:32:15,830
and to see how many worm eggs there are

1733
01:32:15,830 --> 01:32:18,363
in that fecal sample or
if it's pretty clean.

1734
01:32:19,506 --> 01:32:22,428
If you bring the animals in
at the beginning of winter

1735
01:32:22,428 --> 01:32:24,055
and they're with your herd all winter

1736
01:32:24,055 --> 01:32:25,555
before they go out to pasture,

1737
01:32:27,820 --> 01:32:31,105
their worms will have
intermingled with your worms,

1738
01:32:31,105 --> 01:32:32,020
and there's less chance

1739
01:32:32,020 --> 01:32:34,723
of their worms having a
big effect on your pasture.

1740
01:32:36,022 --> 01:32:37,440
If you're buying 'em and
you're putting 'em out

1741
01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:40,665
in your pastures or you're
buying 'em this time of year

1742
01:32:40,665 --> 01:32:42,644
and putting 'em out in your pastures,

1743
01:32:42,644 --> 01:32:44,550
they can have a pretty big effect

1744
01:32:44,550 --> 01:32:46,850
on changing that worm
population in your herd.

1745
01:32:47,788 --> 01:32:52,383
So that's where it is good to
do a fecal sample and check,

1746
01:32:53,432 --> 01:32:57,640
and often, that combination
is gonna get more worms

1747
01:32:57,640 --> 01:32:59,523
than using one family alone.

1748
01:33:01,420 --> 01:33:03,270
- Thanks, Tatiana. I just
wanna do a time check.

1749
01:33:03,270 --> 01:33:05,545
I've had a couple people say they have

1750
01:33:05,545 --> 01:33:08,095
to hop off and do tours.
- And I'm all done.

1751
01:33:08,095 --> 01:33:10,095
We're not gonna go
through any more of this.

1752
01:33:10,095 --> 01:33:10,928
- Okay.

1753
01:33:14,737 --> 01:33:18,002
- [Tatiana] And so I can continue
answering some questions.

1754
01:33:18,002 --> 01:33:21,841
So Elsa's asking, "When
you do a fecal sample,

1755
01:33:21,841 --> 01:33:22,950
do you combine samples from a lot

1756
01:33:22,950 --> 01:33:24,847
of animals into one sample?"

1757
01:33:25,799 --> 01:33:28,779
No, you only do that if
you're sending it off

1758
01:33:28,779 --> 01:33:30,679
to get a drench right test done on it,

1759
01:33:31,646 --> 01:33:35,770
which is where a lab is
gonna look at all of those,

1760
01:33:35,770 --> 01:33:38,520
and they're gonna put 'em
in little, not Petri dishes,

1761
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:43,520
but little pools where they
directly put the dewormer

1762
01:33:44,670 --> 01:33:46,900
in there with the hatching larvae

1763
01:33:48,426 --> 01:33:52,060
and see which dewormers have an effect

1764
01:33:52,060 --> 01:33:54,123
on those hatching larvae and which don't.

1765
01:33:55,157 --> 01:33:58,963
Instead, you wanna sample
multiple goats separately,

1766
01:33:59,874 --> 01:34:01,770
and we usually say if
you're wanting a good idea

1767
01:34:01,770 --> 01:34:03,570
of your herd, pick a couple of goats

1768
01:34:04,775 --> 01:34:06,940
or sheep that look
pretty poor in your herd

1769
01:34:07,939 --> 01:34:10,120
and a couple that look pretty good

1770
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:12,130
and look at their fecal samples,

1771
01:34:12,130 --> 01:34:14,260
and that will hopefully give you an idea

1772
01:34:14,260 --> 01:34:17,840
of the range of what's
happening in your herd

1773
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,487
because when you pull those samples,

1774
01:34:20,487 --> 01:34:22,910
that animal that had 6,000 worms,

1775
01:34:22,910 --> 01:34:27,660
getting it combined with an
animal that has zero or five

1776
01:34:28,881 --> 01:34:32,203
doesn't give you a clear
idea of what the problem is.

1777
01:34:34,697 --> 01:34:36,184
You may have it coming out that,

1778
01:34:36,184 --> 01:34:38,184
"Oh, on average, we have 900 worm eggs."

1779
01:34:39,340 --> 01:34:41,617
That doesn't seem too bad when, really,

1780
01:34:41,617 --> 01:34:43,160
there were a couple of
really critically ill,

1781
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,783
critically infected animals there.

1782
01:34:47,276 --> 01:34:51,817
So it's usually best to
pull them individually.

1783
01:34:54,123 --> 01:34:55,073
Any more questions?

1784
01:34:59,396 --> 01:35:02,543
- I see somebody asked if
nicotinics kill bees in the feces.

1785
01:35:05,646 --> 01:35:07,633
Hopefully the bees
wouldn't be in the feces.

1786
01:35:09,286 --> 01:35:10,119
- [Tatiana] Yeah,

1787
01:35:10,119 --> 01:35:12,911
I do not believe that
it causes any issues.

1788
01:35:12,911 --> 01:35:15,411
We've had trouble with
ivermectin in dung beetles,

1789
01:35:19,778 --> 01:35:23,210
and it seems to be in particular cases.

1790
01:35:26,866 --> 01:35:29,670
And there are more studies
going on right now,

1791
01:35:29,670 --> 01:35:32,580
I know, through Cornell
Cooperative Extension

1792
01:35:32,580 --> 01:35:36,620
with dung beetles and what
affects them and stuff,

1793
01:35:36,620 --> 01:35:40,580
but I know that we do use
ivermectin or, excuse me,

1794
01:35:47,083 --> 01:35:49,113
the dewormer you had
mentioned was which one?

1795
01:35:51,095 --> 01:35:53,017
- Nicotinics, so probably Prohibit.

1796
01:35:53,017 --> 01:35:55,256
- [Tatiana] Right, so
the levamisole family,

1797
01:35:55,256 --> 01:35:56,950
and we do use that one sometimes

1798
01:35:56,950 --> 01:35:59,363
with the solar array sheep at Cornell,

1799
01:36:00,545 --> 01:36:04,193
and we do pollinator testing
out on the solar arrays.

1800
01:36:05,298 --> 01:36:08,300
And I know the bee populations

1801
01:36:08,300 --> 01:36:10,903
have stayed pretty healthy out there.

1802
01:36:10,903 --> 01:36:13,933
So I think it's pretty
localized in that feces,

1803
01:36:15,731 --> 01:36:18,081
so I don't think it would
be an issue for bees.

1804
01:36:19,502 --> 01:36:21,645
- They also ask, "What is best for lambs?"

1805
01:36:21,645 --> 01:36:24,754
Which answer is it depends. (laughs)

1806
01:36:24,754 --> 01:36:25,813
- [Tatiana] It really depends.

1807
01:36:27,622 --> 01:36:29,823
I think when we do part two,

1808
01:36:30,859 --> 01:36:32,800
we'll be doing a little bit
about dewormer resistance,

1809
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,003
and from farm to farm
based on your history

1810
01:36:36,003 --> 01:36:38,131
of your farm and your flock,

1811
01:36:38,131 --> 01:36:41,233
it can really vary what
your farm is resistant to.

1812
01:36:42,313 --> 01:36:44,313
So you're looking for something that is-

1813
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:53,208
- It's gotta work on your farm.

1814
01:36:53,208 --> 01:36:55,608
- [Tatiana] That works
for you, okay? Basically.

1815
01:36:57,836 --> 01:37:00,270
And one simple way to do
that is if you do learn

1816
01:37:01,241 --> 01:37:03,470
how to do fecal sampling
and have a microscope you

1817
01:37:03,470 --> 01:37:08,090
can borrow or invest in a microscope

1818
01:37:09,286 --> 01:37:11,250
or have a county extension office

1819
01:37:11,250 --> 01:37:13,343
that has microscopes available,

1820
01:37:14,837 --> 01:37:17,446
if you have got a discussion
group or something,

1821
01:37:17,446 --> 01:37:21,310
then doing before and
after deworming sampling,

1822
01:37:21,310 --> 01:37:24,832
right before you deworm,
you take a fecal sample,

1823
01:37:24,832 --> 01:37:28,140
and then 10, 14 days later,
you take another fecal sample

1824
01:37:29,287 --> 01:37:31,180
and see how effective that dewormer was,

1825
01:37:31,180 --> 01:37:33,023
that can work well for you.

1826
01:37:33,907 --> 01:37:34,740
And that also works

1827
01:37:34,740 --> 01:37:37,363
for if you're testing out
herbal dewormers and stuff.

1828
01:37:38,460 --> 01:37:40,513
That can be a quick way to see,

1829
01:37:41,462 --> 01:37:45,077
"Hey, is this working as an
acute dewormer in my herd?"

1830
01:37:46,291 --> 01:37:49,623
- And we found doing our feeding study,

1831
01:37:51,440 --> 01:37:53,360
we thought we were using
an effective dewormer,

1832
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:55,500
but then when we sampled
them again two weeks later

1833
01:37:55,500 --> 01:37:59,866
to see if it worked, there
wasn't any change at all,

1834
01:37:59,866 --> 01:38:02,343
so you can't assume that
everything's working.

1835
01:38:06,088 --> 01:38:07,679
There's another question here, Tat, about,

1836
01:38:07,679 --> 01:38:09,143
"Are there any breeds that are prone

1837
01:38:09,143 --> 01:38:11,260
or proven to be more-"

1838
01:38:11,260 --> 01:38:14,060
- [Tatiana] We'll be talking
about that during part two,

1839
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,383
as far as some of the breed,

1840
01:38:18,706 --> 01:38:19,760
and I'll probably ask you guys

1841
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:23,962
to talk a little bit about
your breeds and stuff.

1842
01:38:23,962 --> 01:38:25,144
It also depends.

1843
01:38:25,144 --> 01:38:29,310
You can abuse a breed and
make that breed less resistant

1844
01:38:31,321 --> 01:38:32,763
to parasites yourself.

1845
01:38:33,742 --> 01:38:38,283
But yeah, it's genetically
as inheritable as milk yield.

1846
01:38:39,903 --> 01:38:44,903
So there's definitely a strong
genetic component to it.

1847
01:38:46,581 --> 01:38:48,874
- I just realized I can stop
sharing while we do this.

1848
01:38:48,874 --> 01:38:50,677
- Yeah. Right.
- There we go.

1849
01:38:52,300 --> 01:38:53,133
- [Tatiana] And you guys

1850
01:38:53,133 --> 01:38:55,233
have been really, really patient. (laughs)

1851
01:38:58,500 --> 01:39:01,373
Any more questions for Betsy or myself?

1852
01:39:03,377 --> 01:39:06,323
I know we went through those
egg charts pretty fast.

1853
01:39:08,446 --> 01:39:12,446
We cannot make those egg charts
available online very well.

1854
01:39:12,446 --> 01:39:14,460
You do have 'em in your PowerPoint,

1855
01:39:14,460 --> 01:39:15,710
in the PowerPoint slides.

1856
01:39:16,735 --> 01:39:18,882
You 'em available to you there.

1857
01:39:18,882 --> 01:39:21,271
For people who come to the in person,

1858
01:39:21,271 --> 01:39:24,783
we will have those egg
charts available there, okay?

1859
01:39:24,783 --> 01:39:26,833
But we're, we're not
allowed to put 'em online.

1860
01:39:28,059 --> 01:39:29,905
- So there's a question about,

1861
01:39:29,905 --> 01:39:31,952
"Can you breed for parasite resistance?"

1862
01:39:31,952 --> 01:39:34,358
And I think we cover that next week.

1863
01:39:34,358 --> 01:39:35,191
- [Tatiana] Yeah.

1864
01:39:35,191 --> 01:39:37,123
You can select for resistance, yes.

1865
01:39:38,074 --> 01:39:39,491
- [Tatiana] Yeah.

1866
01:39:43,701 --> 01:39:44,651
Okay.
- All right.

1867
01:39:46,660 --> 01:39:48,378
Thank you, Betsy, and thank you, Tatiana,

1868
01:39:48,378 --> 01:39:49,410
and I will follow up with all these links

1869
01:39:49,410 --> 01:39:50,473
that we've mentioned.

1870
01:39:51,466 --> 01:39:54,467
I'll email everyone who's
registered and attending.

1871
01:39:54,467 --> 01:39:56,850
I'll send out an email with handouts

1872
01:39:56,850 --> 01:39:59,125
and some more links and information,

1873
01:39:59,125 --> 01:40:01,217
as well as a link to the recording

1874
01:40:01,217 --> 01:40:03,900
'cause some people had to
leave early or join late,

1875
01:40:03,900 --> 01:40:07,629
and there will be a recording
of part two as well.

1876
01:40:07,629 --> 01:40:10,510
So the next webinar will
be part two next Monday

1877
01:40:11,349 --> 01:40:12,873
at the same time, seven to 8:30.

1878
01:40:14,216 --> 01:40:15,873
Yeah. Anything else, Betsy and Tatiana?

1879
01:40:17,084 --> 01:40:17,917
- That's good.
- No,

1880
01:40:17,917 --> 01:40:19,753
I'm looking forward to
coming to Whiting, Vermont.

1881
01:40:20,913 --> 01:40:25,595
- (laughs) Well, we did split
this up this week this way

1882
01:40:25,595 --> 01:40:27,916
because it's a lot to absorb all at once.

1883
01:40:27,916 --> 01:40:29,330
So we're hoping by doing it this way

1884
01:40:29,330 --> 01:40:32,398
and then covering the
other part next week,

1885
01:40:32,398 --> 01:40:35,147
it'll give you a chance to
think about it a little bit

1886
01:40:35,147 --> 01:40:36,863
and remember it a little easier.

1887
01:40:38,643 --> 01:40:40,780
- And I got a little
wordy because I was aware

1888
01:40:40,780 --> 01:40:44,250
that Betsy was going through her time

1889
01:40:44,250 --> 01:40:47,170
in less time than she
thought it was gonna take.

1890
01:40:47,170 --> 01:40:48,973
That's why I said, "Oh,

1891
01:40:48,973 --> 01:40:51,147
can I talk about a case
study about coccidia?"

1892
01:40:51,999 --> 01:40:52,832
'Cause I was going, "Wait!

1893
01:40:52,832 --> 01:40:54,607
She's getting to me way too soon."

1894
01:40:55,791 --> 01:40:59,400
And then I blabbed my
mouth off about deer worm,

1895
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:00,470
and anyone who knows me knows

1896
01:41:00,470 --> 01:41:02,693
that I tend to talk way too much.

1897
01:41:04,023 --> 01:41:05,349
So I'm sorry.

1898
01:41:05,349 --> 01:41:06,976
- I think the case studies are great.

1899
01:41:06,976 --> 01:41:08,349
- And it's very interactive,
I think they illustrate-

1900
01:41:08,349 --> 01:41:10,200
- so I feel bad about the fact

1901
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,220
that we're not able to
interact with you guys

1902
01:41:13,220 --> 01:41:17,773
as much as if we were all in
per person, but this was good.

1903
01:41:19,530 --> 01:41:22,229
So.
- This is great. Yeah.

1904
01:41:22,229 --> 01:41:24,123
And hopefully a lot of
people are signed up

1905
01:41:24,123 --> 01:41:26,240
for the in person on farm sessions,

1906
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:28,040
so we'll have some interaction then.

1907
01:41:29,007 --> 01:41:29,840
- And you said there's a little more room

1908
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:32,061
in the morning session
if people might wanna-

1909
01:41:32,061 --> 01:41:33,800
- There is still room
in the morning session

1910
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:37,113
if anyone here still wants to
join for the morning session,

1911
01:41:37,113 --> 01:41:39,369
nine to 12 on May 23rd.

1912
01:41:39,369 --> 01:41:41,969
The afternoon session is
full, but we have about 10,

1913
01:41:42,848 --> 01:41:44,563
11 spots left in the morning session.

1914
01:41:46,940 --> 01:41:48,510
- All right.
- All right.

1915
01:41:49,783 --> 01:41:52,190
- Everybody have a great night
and enjoy the nice weather.

1916
01:41:52,190 --> 01:41:53,140
- Thanks. You, too.

1917
01:41:54,555 --> 01:41:56,313
- See you are all.
- All right, bye bye.