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Hello everyone.

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For this guest lecture,

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I have the pleasure of
having a conversation

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with Nicole Burke,

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who is the co-founder of
the Golden Well Sanctuary

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for Spirit and Nature,

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which is located near
Middlebury, Vermont in New Haven.

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And I just wanna share a
little bit about Nicole.

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I encourage you to read
and check them out more

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on their website.

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So Nicole is a community artist,

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an organic vegetable farmer, beekeeper,

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shamanic practitioner,
ceremonialist, visual artist,

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designer, writer, and world adventurer.

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She has been working in
the healing arts since 2006

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and farming since 2012.

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For over a decade, she's been
deeply immersed in The Lyceum,

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formerly the Path of Pollen,

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a shamanic honeybee
tradition based in England.

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She has also trained in Japanese
medicine and acupressure,

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the classic shamanic and
classic shamanic healing.

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Nicole honors and nurtures
the wilderness of the soul.

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She has inspired to help
people remember to follow joy,

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towards living a more
rich, interconnected life.

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Her work is guided by and deeply rooted

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in loving relationship with the earth,

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all of its elements and inhabitants.

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And I met Nicole as a
local farmer enthusiast.

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She also leads women's moon
circles in the community

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and is a truly gifted
healer and practitioner

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and love warrior for the earth.

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So I'm here with Nicole Burke

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and of course you recognize Bayla.

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And we're having a conversation

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about Nicole's work in
nature-based spirituality.

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And Nicole is a friend and
colleague of mine in community

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and I also just enrolled
in a training with her

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for the next few months and
I'm really excited about that.

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So I'd love to hear a little
bit more about you, Nicole,

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and your background

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and then we'll speak with
you for an hour today.

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Awesome, thanks so much for having me.

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Yeah, so my background is pretty diverse.

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I most passionately follow a practice

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that's born out of England,

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a European tradition called The Lyceum,

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also once known as Path of Pollen

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and its roots are indefinitely ancient

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and it focuses on
working with the honeybee

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as the sacred ally.

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And let's see.

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So I have also a background in
studying shamanic practices.

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My teacher was,

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she worked with Abenaki medicine people

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and also shamans from South America.

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And I was born in Hong Kong

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and I have a Moroccan Algerian mother

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and an Irish Polish father.

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So I bring a lot of different
influences to the table.

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And as far as my work goes,

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we have Golden Well
Sanctuary down in New Haven

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and we really seek to be
connected to the land here

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and hold space for community
and connection to spirit

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and connection to nature here, so.

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Awesome.

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And I know that you're
also on a working farm.

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Would you just share a little
bit about that aspect briefly?

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Yeah, sure.

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It was our passion to homestead

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and to be connected to the land

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and to have a food sovereignty

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and be part of an evolving food system.

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And my conversation around
that has really evolved

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over the years.

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So what started as, you know,

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a small scale kind of home garden

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grew into farmer's market in CSA

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and then grew even bigger into, you know,

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wholesale and a 50
person CSA at its height.

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And now we're kind of back
down to just growing food

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for our family and immediate community

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and retreats and things like that.

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Kind of moving away from
industrial and commercial farming

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back into just farming for
food and for community, so.

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Nice and I do just wanna mention

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since many of the students are,

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have connections to Burlington, Vermont,

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and they have seen the kombucha
that your family produces,

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Apis Kombucha which is
sold through city market

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and other health food stores

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and it's a really wonderful
honey based kombucha.

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Thank you, yeah.

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So would you speak a little bit

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to what wellness means to you

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and what medicine means
to you in your worldview?

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Sure.

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So wellness I think of as
right relationship basically.

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Things being in balance and in harmony

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and when a body is well or nature is well,

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there's kind of not much to notice, right?

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So if my body is well,

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I'm not noticing pains or
how my stomach is digesting,

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things are just working and
there's a seamless relationship

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and effortless flow with how things go.

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And medicine, I think of
medicine as something that

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encourages wellness

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and there's, yeah,

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the medicine that I'm most connected to

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is the medicine that allows

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a seamless relationship
with nature and the body

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and spirit in the body I would say too

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because I don't think
of medicine as something

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just that you take or ingest.

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It's also acts that you
can perform, rituals,

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there can be dreaming medicine,

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there can be relationship medicine,

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anything that really affects

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your relationship with wellness.

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What are some of your favorite
practices or modalities

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that you use?

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'Cause I know you also
have a healing practice

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in your community or with your family.

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So my practice is mostly
shamanic at this point.

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I did study for three
years apprenticeship style

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with a Japanese medicine person.

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And so I do also acupressure

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and acupuncture and
working also with the bees

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and the meridian plants.

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And so that's kind of more
the physical medicine field

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that I've been encountered, encountering.

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And I also, through working
with my acupuncture teacher,

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I got really into food as medicine.

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And so I started to
garden more when I met him

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and got really into growing
food in my backyard in Brooklyn.

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I had a tiny little plot
and I just found such joy

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in being able to feed
myself from the land there,

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even though it was just
this tiny little pocket.

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And then from there, I moved up to Vermont

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and got really into
herbs at that point too.

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So I was gardening, farming,

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and then I just started to really wonder,

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what were all these
things that I was pulling

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out of my nicely lined up rows

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and I just casting off
like they were nothing?

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And I started to kind of
have more of a relationship

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with the herbs in that way.

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And when I studied with him,

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even though it was this very
physical body oriented route,

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I started to open up
with my ways of seeing

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and actually I wanna give
credit to mugwort for that.

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So Moxibustion is a big
part of Japanese medicine

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and Chinese medicine as well.

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It's used to tonify
the points in the body.

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So the meridian system
that exists on the body,

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there are certain aspects
that can either be blocked

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because there's too much energy there

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or they're considered qi or deficient.

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And so Moxa has been
a really beautiful way

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of working with those
qi or deficient areas.

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So bringing in mugwort
moxa as as some herb

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that you burn over those points

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to kind of bring and tonify
the energy of those meridians.

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And so if you work in a room
all day with mugwort moxa,

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another thing you might discover about it

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is that it's a very dreamy herb.

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And I was, when I was
apprenticing in Colorado

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with my teacher, I would
spend eight hours a day

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in this little room full
of moxa smoke, you know?

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And that's kind of where I ended up

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kind of opening my seeing.

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So he would have a patient
that would walk into the room

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and we were, you know,

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meant to diagnose by pulse and by tongue

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and by listening to the
symptoms and by face analysis

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and all of those things.

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But these people would walk in

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and I would just kind
of space out and say,

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oh, he's gonna take, you know,

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stomach 36 in lung four or whatever,

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just kind of in my haze
of moxa or mugwort.

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And so I would tell him
and he would say, you know,

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but how did you figure that out

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according to our very linear system

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that was all about charting
and all these things?

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And I just said, I just saw, I just knew.

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And that's really what opened
up my path into shamanic work.

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And so then the last time
that I studied with him,

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I came back to Vermont

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and I met my teacher in the northeast

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and just did a shamanic
apprenticeship there.

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And so that's how I really started getting

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into shamanic practice.

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And so now when people come in,

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I really use my way of
seeing and diagnostics

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through my spirit guides

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and through kind of connecting

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to these other unseen worlds

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and getting there by journey or by drum

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or by other ways of dropping
in which I don't know how much

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I should get into that now.

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But oftentimes my diagnostics
will lead to things

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that might be physical or they might be

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more on a spiritual realm or
they might be a mix of both.

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So I kind of have this
vast toolkit to work with.

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Anything from herbs to touch to, you know,

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acupressure and also using
the shamanic practices

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that I do as well.

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Do you have an example
or a story of, you know,

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could be a anonymous case or
just like sharing a little bit

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about what that might look like,

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especially because many of my
students may not be familiar

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with shamanic practices
or shamanic healing?

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Sure.

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So do you want me to just
walk through what a shamanic

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-preview looks like?
-Sure, yeah.

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Okay.

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So yeah, so usually when
I have people interested

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in shamanic work, I'll first just check in

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to make sure that they know
what they're getting into

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and make sure that it's
a mutually good fit

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because it's definitely not
on a linear way of healing.

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It oftentimes requires a
real engagement of will

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from the person who's
coming for a healing.

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So it can imply sometimes
some big life changes

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and some excavation of, you know,

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old things, old wounds,

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things that might have taken
the person out of balance

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or out of wellness along the way.

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So I'm thinking about one
case that was kind of like

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both physical and brought in some herbs

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and some shamanic practice
that I can tell you about.

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So I saw this person,

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we had a initial discussion

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and he was suffering from
some in intestinal issues.

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And so I worked with him
on an energetic level.

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So meaning I prepare the space,

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I call in the directions,
the sacred directions

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and create a container that is imbued

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with the divine, imbued with spirit

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and my allies from the unseen world.

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It's a little bit hard
to talk about all this

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'cause I don't know where people are at

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with this kinda thing.

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So I call in my guides and
I just try to hollow out.

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I try to get out of my linear mind

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and I drop into what is
similar to a dream state.

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And from that place, I asked
to work with this person's soul

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and their spirit and their body.

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And at that point, I'm
either shown visually,

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auditorily or I have a sense in my body

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or a combination of all of those things

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about what the nature of
the imbalance or the illness

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or the problem that
they've come to me with.

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So in this case, I remember
that there was a lot to do

255
00:13:38,667 --> 00:13:42,213
with grief and some ancestral work.

256
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,640
And I'm trying to think back,

257
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,390
it was actually a little while ago.

258
00:13:48,690 --> 00:13:51,630
Yeah and I do believe that
there was some soul loss

259
00:13:51,630 --> 00:13:54,150
and soul retrieval work that we did.

260
00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:56,970
So on the energetic level, we did that.

261
00:13:56,970 --> 00:13:59,763
And what that looks like,

262
00:14:00,660 --> 00:14:03,810
it can be different with each case,

263
00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:07,260
but oftentimes there's
sound and there's movement

264
00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:11,430
and the person is just
laying in a receptive way

265
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:13,290
on my table here,

266
00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:16,180
usually with eyes closed
or with a blind fold on

267
00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:20,090
as I rattle, as I drum, as I use my voice,

268
00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:23,553
as I use my body, as I use my breath.

269
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:26,460
Just all the different ways

270
00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:29,613
that however spirit wants to
move through me at that point.

271
00:14:30,450 --> 00:14:34,323
And at that, with the soul retrieval work,

272
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,640
there is a seeking and a going out into

273
00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:44,550
extraordinary reality and
collecting these pieces,

274
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:46,800
these soul fragments that might have gone

275
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,950
during a traumatic time
in this person's life.

276
00:14:49,950 --> 00:14:53,460
So it was during a time
that the rest of his psyche

277
00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:56,100
couldn't handle the
trauma that had occurred.

278
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:59,880
So what happens is that the
soul kind of splinters off

279
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:04,173
and these pieces of the
soul are left in holding.

280
00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:07,350
And so I bring those pieces back

281
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:09,780
and I deliver them back to the person,

282
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:13,805
to help with their you
know, with their wellness.

283
00:15:13,805 --> 00:15:18,540
And then what came to me was
actually purple loosestrife.

284
00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:22,080
And this was an herb
that I knew nothing about

285
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,760
and I kind of like that.

286
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,220
I'm not a studied herbalist,

287
00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:28,535
but I just listen to the plants

288
00:15:28,535 --> 00:15:30,025
and I listen to my dreamscape

289
00:15:30,025 --> 00:15:31,830
and I listened to the shamanic journey

290
00:15:31,830 --> 00:15:35,487
and purple loosestrife wanted to come in

291
00:15:35,487 --> 00:15:39,307
and I said it to him during
the practice and I said,

292
00:15:39,307 --> 00:15:40,350
"Let's look into that.

293
00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:42,000
I have a trusted herbalist friend

294
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,560
that I can talk to about this."

295
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,740
And it turned out to be the
thing that he really needed

296
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:49,800
and it really helped to
heal the physical aspect

297
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,020
of what was going on for him

298
00:15:52,020 --> 00:15:54,930
as well as, you know,
the grief and the trauma

299
00:15:54,930 --> 00:15:56,100
that he had experienced,

300
00:15:56,100 --> 00:15:59,190
that coming together with
the herbs, I think they were,

301
00:15:59,190 --> 00:16:02,490
they made a beautiful allyship, so yeah.

302
00:16:02,490 --> 00:16:05,340
Awesome, yeah, I'm struck
by one of the themes

303
00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:08,700
in this class is to really open up

304
00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:11,310
to multiple ways of knowing

305
00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:14,250
while also acknowledging
that certain ways of knowing

306
00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:19,083
are privileged in our society
and particularly in academia.

307
00:16:19,950 --> 00:16:22,710
And I can hear you referring
to that sometimes and saying,

308
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:26,310
you know, like I'm not trained
in this way as an herbalist

309
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:29,230
and I'd just love for you
to speak a little bit about

310
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,060
your experience, like
which ways of knowing

311
00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:35,610
you are really drawn to

312
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:38,130
and how you've approached that personally,

313
00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:42,270
but as well as sort of
navigating the current landscape

314
00:16:42,270 --> 00:16:44,283
of sort of mainstream society.

315
00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:51,380
Yeah, so the knowing of the bones,

316
00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:52,650
I'll just say that.

317
00:16:52,650 --> 00:16:56,040
You know, the knowing that
comes through the body,

318
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,940
that's really where I start.

319
00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:04,530
And the more that I can
drop out of the chatter mind

320
00:17:04,530 --> 00:17:07,200
and into the stillness of the body,

321
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,220
there's so much more
information than what,

322
00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:15,513
you know, our five senses
allow us to absorb.

323
00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:20,150
So just opening up to really what's there

324
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:21,690
in the relational field.

325
00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:24,930
So it's not just I see this thing

326
00:17:24,930 --> 00:17:27,240
because the color is reflecting off of it.

327
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,900
You know, just that kind of linear

328
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,420
physical seeing and knowing.

329
00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:38,420
There's this, the word that
I like to describe is gnosis,

330
00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:42,933
the unearthing of the
knowledge of the body hypnosis.

331
00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:49,170
And did you want me to get
into ways of getting there?

332
00:17:49,170 --> 00:17:50,850
Is that something that you're

333
00:17:50,850 --> 00:17:52,350
-interested in?
-No, I mean.

334
00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:53,610
[Nicole] Off topic?

335
00:17:53,610 --> 00:17:55,220
I think some students
might be interested in that

336
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,460
or you could give an example,

337
00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:59,073
but I'm also just really
interested in this,

338
00:18:00,219 --> 00:18:03,000
you know, sort of the past
and current experience

339
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,060
of having this wisdom,

340
00:18:06,060 --> 00:18:08,730
using this wisdom in the world

341
00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:11,640
and how that feels or
how it's felt for you

342
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,800
and how you've navigated that.

343
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,590
Yeah, yeah, so it's really a change

344
00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:18,120
in cosmology too, right?

345
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,570
So as soon as we start
to really acknowledge

346
00:18:21,570 --> 00:18:23,880
that we have all of these relationships

347
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,770
outside of just the linear and what's seen

348
00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:32,070
and we give attention and gratitude

349
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:37,070
and just appreciation
to those relationships,

350
00:18:37,260 --> 00:18:41,100
they really start to
speak more loudly to us.

351
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,410
So even just taking a walk

352
00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:46,260
and knowing that I'm dropping
out of my mind and my,

353
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:47,940
like, you know, my seeing eyes

354
00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:51,540
and the physical relationships that I have

355
00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:54,540
when I take a walk and
I can quiet all of that

356
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:57,450
and be in my body then, you know,

357
00:18:57,450 --> 00:19:00,240
maybe motherwort wants to pop out and say,

358
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,760
hey, you know, you could
use a little bit of me

359
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,960
for your heart right now.

360
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,220
Or, you know, what else
I'm trying to think of?

361
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,040
Yeah, like clover or something
will just kind of give me

362
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,600
a little bit of a whisper.

363
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,190
And even if I don't know
anything about a plant

364
00:19:16,620 --> 00:19:18,030
with my linear mind,

365
00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:22,230
it's that my body knows
something about our relationship.

366
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:27,230
So it's constantly this
respecting the relationship

367
00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:31,530
of all that we have around us

368
00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:35,343
and that we have this
innate ability to really,

369
00:19:36,690 --> 00:19:40,470
to really connect when
we give our attention,

370
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:43,200
when we pay our respects
with our attention.

371
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,250
It's that being like a form
of love that we put into

372
00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:50,070
a relationship that then
speaks more loudly to us,

373
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:52,290
the more that we, yeah,

374
00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:53,283
that we give to it.

375
00:19:55,020 --> 00:19:57,390
I love these descriptions
'cause they resonate so much

376
00:19:57,390 --> 00:19:58,470
with my experience.

377
00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:01,170
And one of the things I've
noticed in the last year or two

378
00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:05,730
is that if a plant
wants me to think of it,

379
00:20:05,730 --> 00:20:06,690
I will smell it.

380
00:20:06,690 --> 00:20:10,227
So it's like this, it's like
it triggers the you know,

381
00:20:10,227 --> 00:20:12,720
the center in my brain
that releases the smell

382
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,730
into like my old factory sensation.

383
00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:17,190
And that's what will
cause me to think about,

384
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:20,520
oh okay, spirits want me to
burn some sweet grass right now.

385
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,583
And like, I haven't burned
sweet grass for weeks.

386
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,750
So and I also, I had a similar
experience with motherwort

387
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:28,710
earlier this week.

388
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:31,080
It's like, oh, why do I taste motherwort?

389
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,100
I haven't had any for really long time.

390
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,610
You know, think it's just
my body trying to signal me.

391
00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:39,813
Yeah, beautiful.

392
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,383
Bayla, do you have anything to ask or add?

393
00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:46,830
I'm so fascinated by this

394
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:49,290
that I'm kind of having
trouble thinking of questions

395
00:20:49,290 --> 00:20:50,730
'cause all I wanna do is listen.

396
00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:53,583
but I had an experience.

397
00:20:54,660 --> 00:20:56,100
When you were talking about seeing

398
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:57,780
and getting out of your body

399
00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:00,510
and letting the spirits kind of guide you

400
00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:02,853
into seeing what a person needed,

401
00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:07,170
I was having a health crisis

402
00:21:07,170 --> 00:21:12,120
and like really severe
migraines in earlier this year.

403
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,330
And I remember going to
see allopathic doctors

404
00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:20,010
and I got reiki done and acupuncture

405
00:21:20,010 --> 00:21:21,870
and the last person I went to see

406
00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:25,710
was this little eastern European woman

407
00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:27,270
and she was an acupuncturist

408
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:29,100
and I remember walking in just expecting

409
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,150
to get like needles in
my neck and she stopped

410
00:21:33,150 --> 00:21:36,033
and she was like, she turned
away from me and she said,

411
00:21:36,967 --> 00:21:37,980
"Your gallbladder.

412
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:40,260
There's something wrong
with your gallbladder."

413
00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:41,910
And then she gave me all these reasons

414
00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:43,620
why there was something
wrong with my gallbladder.

415
00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:44,453
And I was like,

416
00:21:45,424 --> 00:21:47,163
that seems right.

417
00:21:49,098 --> 00:21:51,090
And I felt so,

418
00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:54,270
and she did acupuncture,
but it wasn't in my neck,

419
00:21:54,270 --> 00:21:58,290
it was in my stomach and my
gut and my legs and my feet.

420
00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:01,860
And I remember feeling so held

421
00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:05,640
because she was bringing in
this aspect of like past trauma

422
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,750
that I had experienced

423
00:22:06,750 --> 00:22:08,940
and how that was influencing my migraines

424
00:22:08,940 --> 00:22:12,000
and how my gut health was influencing it.

425
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,460
And I just,

426
00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:17,987
it's so special to find
that type of wholism,

427
00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:20,523
especially in medicine.

428
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,250
And so one of the things that
really interested me about her

429
00:22:26,250 --> 00:22:29,280
was like how she came to do this

430
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,300
and what kind of inspired
her to get on this path.

431
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:35,883
And so I wanted to ask you the same thing.

432
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,073
What inspired me to get on this path?

433
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,208
Yeah, freedom I would say.

434
00:22:49,208 --> 00:22:53,550
Just the freedom of knowing

435
00:22:53,550 --> 00:22:57,150
that it's not all linear

436
00:22:57,150 --> 00:23:01,680
and it's opening to that.

437
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:02,850
I'd say that it real,

438
00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:06,390
that the mugwort story that I told,

439
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:09,240
that was really a big
turning point for me.

440
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,690
But I think always since I
was a young child it was,

441
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:14,580
I was always out of the box.

442
00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:16,020
I mean always.

443
00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:17,910
I wanted to, as you were talking,

444
00:23:17,910 --> 00:23:22,590
I actually am gonna do a
little nonlinear thing here

445
00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:25,410
and bring up one of the
articles that you shared

446
00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:29,910
with us, Catherine, about the enclosures.

447
00:23:29,910 --> 00:23:34,910
And that's kind of been
a theme of my thinking

448
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:39,420
around all of this type of medicine

449
00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:42,600
and about just our
culture at large right now

450
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,620
that there's this colonized mind, right?

451
00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:50,580
Or this like colonized way
of thinking about medicine

452
00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:54,300
and wellness that's like,
oh, you have a headache.

453
00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:56,160
You're head up here, right?

454
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,740
And it's almost cut off
from the rest of your body

455
00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:01,530
the way that they want to deal with it

456
00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:03,123
in some forms of medicine.

457
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:06,657
But really it's like if we decolonize

458
00:24:06,657 --> 00:24:08,400
the way that we think about that,

459
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,680
of course it's related to the gallbladder,

460
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,600
that's related to the past trauma

461
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,240
that's related to the, you know,

462
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,520
this plant that you find in your garden

463
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,430
and just the relationships that can happen

464
00:24:20,430 --> 00:24:23,703
when we break down breakdown
borders in that way.

465
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,550
I think, you know,

466
00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:29,670
my upbringing when
people would ask me like,

467
00:24:29,670 --> 00:24:30,503
where are you from?

468
00:24:30,503 --> 00:24:32,630
I have no fucking clue,
excuse my language.

469
00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:36,870
That's all right, we're adults.

470
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:38,820
Liberate the language as well, right?

471
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:42,360
Where it's like, I was born in Hong Kong,

472
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,670
my mother is from Morocco and Algeria,

473
00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:46,800
but she was raised Jewish,
my father, you know,

474
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,970
and just like all of the
different backgrounds

475
00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:52,590
that I come with,

476
00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:57,590
there's a certain sense of not belonging

477
00:24:57,690 --> 00:25:00,720
and anywhere but belonging everywhere.

478
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,250
And I have that way of moving through life

479
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,560
that I've had ever since
I was a really little kid

480
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,230
where it's just like always
really paying attention

481
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:13,410
to the relationships between things

482
00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:18,000
and where I was and not
just like, you know,

483
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,660
sitting inside the box
that I'm meant to be in.

484
00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:24,240
And I really feel that that medicine

485
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,770
needs to be like that too.

486
00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:28,020
It's like this, all of
this cross-pollination

487
00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:31,440
that's happening and even
just in the last five years,

488
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,040
I've seen so much more of, you know,

489
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,370
even reiki happens in
hospitals now, you know?

490
00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:41,760
Things like that, like
there's this real evolution

491
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,760
outside of boundaries, outside of borders

492
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,853
into this fluid way of thinking and being,

493
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,203
that allows for just more
connection, more availability.

494
00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:57,130
To the magical healing
properties of things around us

495
00:25:57,990 --> 00:25:58,823
and in us.

496
00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:02,380
Your comments are making me curious about

497
00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:06,450
the different lineages that you draw from.

498
00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:08,910
And they could be actual ancestors,

499
00:26:08,910 --> 00:26:10,530
blood ancestors that you know about

500
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:13,950
that are related to your ethnicity

501
00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:16,380
or perhaps kind of solar spirit lineages

502
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:19,500
that you have connected
to over your journey.

503
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:21,100
Would you speak a little bit too

504
00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:26,070
just practices or knowledge
you have of your spirit guides

505
00:26:26,070 --> 00:26:27,690
and perhaps some examples

506
00:26:27,690 --> 00:26:30,363
of how you access them for guidance?

507
00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:32,373
Sure, yeah.

508
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:37,500
Can I just share with you a
vision that I have about this?

509
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:38,409
[Catherine] Sure.

510
00:26:38,409 --> 00:26:43,409
So the way I see it is that
there's constantly a weaving

511
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,270
between the earth and the heavens.

512
00:26:48,270 --> 00:26:52,200
And there's this old orthic
hymn that talks about

513
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,880
we're the children of the earth

514
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,770
in the starry heavens, right?

515
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:58,590
So humans on this plain,

516
00:26:58,590 --> 00:27:00,750
we have all types of influence,

517
00:27:00,750 --> 00:27:03,810
not just in the world around us

518
00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:05,580
or the horizontal plain,

519
00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:08,400
but from the above and the below.

520
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,540
And the way that I see it is that

521
00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:14,340
the voice of the earth and
the voice of the stars,

522
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:16,230
if we really listen to them,

523
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:19,200
they can start to weave
through the landscapes.

524
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,940
That's why we have different cultures

525
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:24,480
and different languages
and different imagery

526
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,740
that kind of comes to us
from certain landscapes.

527
00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:30,960
At least that's my seeing of it.

528
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,320
It's like the way that the
stars and the earth speak

529
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,103
and arise into form in
that particular place.

530
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:43,350
And so I feel so open to all of that

531
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:45,180
'cause I've traveled the world.

532
00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:49,020
You know, I definitely
have Devas that come to me

533
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:51,390
from India 'cause I spent some time there,

534
00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:56,390
or maybe it's just my soul
spirit connection to that place

535
00:27:57,060 --> 00:28:00,543
which felt very familiar the
minute that I landed there.

536
00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:06,690
I have, you know, things
from Kabbalah show up.

537
00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:07,980
My mother is Jewish,

538
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:10,110
but I've never studied Kabbalah

539
00:28:10,110 --> 00:28:12,420
and they're suddenly I'm
dreaming these symbols

540
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:15,423
and looking them up and
they're part of that lineage.

541
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:20,880
I have Irish Celtic songs
that come through me

542
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,413
as healing songs for my
patients and clients.

543
00:28:27,420 --> 00:28:31,980
And then, you know, and then
I'll have dreams of the sounds

544
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:34,710
of the land here and I'll start to play

545
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:39,090
my buffalo skin drum and
sounds come out of me

546
00:28:39,090 --> 00:28:42,090
that are very similar to what I hear

547
00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:44,670
of the native people of this
country, of these lands.

548
00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:48,412
So I'm just open.

549
00:28:48,412 --> 00:28:53,412
I don't really hold on to
specific lineages in that way.

550
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:55,260
I definitely have a lot of practices

551
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:58,380
that are around the
European shamanic practices

552
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,680
from The Lyceum and Path of Pollen

553
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,070
and I find those to be
really powerful ways in

554
00:29:05,070 --> 00:29:07,323
or through the veil so to speak.

555
00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:12,720
And I do resonate with me on a body level

556
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,780
that feels very much opening.

557
00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:17,580
Whereas I think when I first started

558
00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:19,770
to work with shamanic practice,

559
00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:23,340
I would more drum or sit or meditate.

560
00:29:23,340 --> 00:29:25,650
The practices in Lyceum and Path of Pollen

561
00:29:25,650 --> 00:29:29,370
are much more dynamic

562
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:32,490
and they work with the nectar of the body

563
00:29:32,490 --> 00:29:34,890
and the movement of those nectar.

564
00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:38,620
So things like breath and
sweat and tears and things

565
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:42,780
which allow for really radical expression.

566
00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:46,950
And that's to me what I really love

567
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:48,603
to work with right now, so.

568
00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:55,140
I've heard you speak a little
bit to what you know of how,

569
00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:56,580
particularly the Path of Pollen,

570
00:29:56,580 --> 00:30:00,900
The Lyceum tradition was
preserved through a time

571
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:05,160
when pagan or earth-based
traditions in Europe

572
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,590
were essentially illegal

573
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:10,050
and there were times when
it came with a death penalty

574
00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:12,180
to be practicing those.

575
00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:14,010
Would you share a little
bit about what you know

576
00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:16,380
about perhaps how those ancient traditions

577
00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:18,423
were preserved to this time?

578
00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:20,373
Yeah, sure.

579
00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:26,407
So hidden in plain sight is
the languaging around that

580
00:30:28,235 --> 00:30:29,610
that we like to use.

581
00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:33,153
So things like the use of a broom,

582
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:38,440
a household object that just,
you know, sits by fireplace

583
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:43,770
and also has many magical implications

584
00:30:43,770 --> 00:30:46,530
of the masculine and the
feminine coming together,

585
00:30:46,530 --> 00:30:50,913
taking magical flight, clearing
spaces, things like that.

586
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,073
Also through the musical skill,

587
00:30:57,570 --> 00:31:02,310
working with the layers of
energy centers in the body.

588
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:05,370
Most people know them here as the chakras,

589
00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:06,990
but in the Path of Pollen,

590
00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:09,690
they're considered the stars and the roses

591
00:31:09,690 --> 00:31:11,580
and it's a slightly different map.

592
00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:14,190
We have an extra center that we work with

593
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:17,040
and that correlates exactly to the scale.

594
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,610
So Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti, Do

595
00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:24,093
and from the perineum all
the way up to the crown.

596
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:27,930
What else is there?

597
00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:31,350
The distaff, ooh, the spinning wheel.

598
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:33,990
I have one sitting right behind me here.

599
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:36,873
So the ways of the
weavers and the spinners,

600
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:42,210
the medicine women who know
the stories of the lands

601
00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:46,770
and the healing quality
of song and of word

602
00:31:46,770 --> 00:31:50,970
and how that really plays
into working with the fibers

603
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:53,580
and the three faiths and things like that.

604
00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:57,780
So yeah, there's just a lot of mythology

605
00:31:57,780 --> 00:31:59,200
that has been

606
00:32:01,530 --> 00:32:04,230
brought into physical form
and a lot of the magic

607
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:08,130
and the practices that are kind of brought

608
00:32:08,130 --> 00:32:12,240
into these tokens or symbols or amulets

609
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,120
of what they mean as just
this sort of reminder

610
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,893
of what could have been lost, yeah.

611
00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:27,290
But it was all passed from mouth to ear.

612
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,793
That's another big,

613
00:32:31,567 --> 00:32:35,370
a big part of why the
tradition really hung on.

614
00:32:35,370 --> 00:32:39,900
And I will also say that in that way,

615
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:42,300
it can't be dogmatic

616
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,450
and there's a certain quality expression

617
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:48,310
of who the information is coming through

618
00:32:49,290 --> 00:32:51,600
that doesn't allow you to kind of hang on

619
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,750
to like one leader or one doctrine or one.

620
00:32:54,750 --> 00:32:56,970
So it's constantly, it's ever ancient,

621
00:32:56,970 --> 00:33:00,200
but evolving with the times
depending on what's needed

622
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,033
in that moment.

623
00:33:01,033 --> 00:33:06,033
So it stays alive to the medicine
of the times, which yeah.

624
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:08,690
-That's beautiful.
-Changing as we know.

625
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,010
Yeah.

626
00:33:11,010 --> 00:33:14,400
So one of the phrases that
has been sort of ringing

627
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,110
in my mind since,

628
00:33:16,110 --> 00:33:19,830
I don't know if you've read
any of Resmaa Menakem's work,

629
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:21,870
he wrote a book called
"My Grandmother's Hands"

630
00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:25,200
and he's a Black psychotherapist,

631
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,450
trauma informed specialist

632
00:33:27,450 --> 00:33:30,090
and might be in Minneapolis actually.

633
00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:34,590
And he recently recorded an
interview with Krista Tippet

634
00:33:34,590 --> 00:33:38,640
on being and I highly recommend it.

635
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,650
I recently shared it on Facebook.

636
00:33:40,650 --> 00:33:43,770
But one of the phrases
he used in talking about

637
00:33:43,770 --> 00:33:46,953
people of color is he called
them people of culture,

638
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:50,250
which was such an interesting phrase

639
00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:52,290
and it was making me think about

640
00:33:52,290 --> 00:33:55,650
the way that conforming to sort of

641
00:33:55,650 --> 00:34:00,420
the mainstream American idea of whiteness

642
00:34:00,420 --> 00:34:03,960
as an attempt to sort
of access the, you know,

643
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,430
privilege, whether you believe

644
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:07,653
that it's a privilege
or not, of conforming.

645
00:34:08,490 --> 00:34:11,160
There can be sort of a loss of culture.

646
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,590
And he actually described white culture

647
00:34:13,590 --> 00:34:17,040
as not actually a culture
or a way of being,

648
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,830
but actually a strategy that was around

649
00:34:19,830 --> 00:34:22,590
sort of domination and control

650
00:34:22,590 --> 00:34:26,103
and sort of having links
back to colonialism.

651
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:30,690
And as I listen to you speak,

652
00:34:30,690 --> 00:34:33,580
it sounds like you're very
connected to your culture

653
00:34:34,860 --> 00:34:36,630
and I just wondered if you had anything

654
00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:38,280
to speak to that idea

655
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,280
of how can white people
also be people of culture

656
00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:47,190
and find that richness and their lineage

657
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:51,183
and in doing so, also feel more whole?

658
00:34:54,030 --> 00:34:57,750
Yeah, that actually is making
me feel quite emotional

659
00:34:57,750 --> 00:34:58,630
to think about

660
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:06,900
that white people were
at some point removed

661
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:11,900
from our cultures and forcibly so

662
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,313
in some cases, you know?

663
00:35:17,550 --> 00:35:20,050
That I don't feel that there are strong

664
00:35:21,210 --> 00:35:24,330
physical ties left.

665
00:35:24,330 --> 00:35:25,680
Not many of them, you know?

666
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,010
Like I just thinking about

667
00:35:29,010 --> 00:35:32,163
the European cultural
things that still exist.

668
00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:35,790
You know, for some reason,

669
00:35:35,790 --> 00:35:38,310
my friend's voice is popping into my head.

670
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:42,210
My Nona who cooks her,
you know, beautiful pasta,

671
00:35:42,210 --> 00:35:46,140
whatever and just the culture around food

672
00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:49,360
being one of the things that
can still really hang on

673
00:35:51,420 --> 00:35:56,070
and the culture around music and dance.

674
00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:58,200
I'm thinking also, again the Italian,

675
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,663
the Tarantella dance is another one.

676
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:07,700
And yeah, just it's hard.

677
00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:12,120
Without the framework of thinking about

678
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,740
the shamanic practices that I have,

679
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:17,730
I don't really have a
ton of cultural reference

680
00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:22,730
for my European lineage and
there's a certain grief to that.

681
00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:26,340
And I think that with
that grief, you know,

682
00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:29,460
I do really feel like in some ways,

683
00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:31,170
like some of the,

684
00:36:31,170 --> 00:36:32,940
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this,

685
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:37,170
but some of the white supremacist
belief and culture I think

686
00:36:37,170 --> 00:36:41,430
is really tied into a
sense of loss and grief

687
00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:46,430
and wound around what really
belongs and what is belonging.

688
00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:51,420
And so there's this sort of
rigidity and grasping at things

689
00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:53,540
that can be quite...

690
00:36:55,710 --> 00:36:57,540
Yeah, that can breed violence.

691
00:36:57,540 --> 00:36:59,760
You know, when people wanna hold onto

692
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,650
this last glimmer of like

693
00:37:01,650 --> 00:37:05,910
something that makes sense
or belongs to just them.

694
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:09,483
There can be this real
violence that comes from that.

695
00:37:11,250 --> 00:37:13,803
And I'm kind of in a space of like,

696
00:37:14,970 --> 00:37:16,920
yeah, great, keep cooking the food

697
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,540
that your grandmother and her grandmother

698
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:21,450
and her grandmother and
all that you know, cooked.

699
00:37:21,450 --> 00:37:23,610
And if you still know the music, great,

700
00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:26,820
but also throw it all out the window.

701
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:28,530
We don't have boundaries anymore.

702
00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:30,243
We don't have this like,

703
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:34,050
who does live on the same land

704
00:37:34,050 --> 00:37:38,220
that their predecessors
from way back, you know,

705
00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:39,090
once lived on?

706
00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:40,560
There are some people in Europe,

707
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,410
but just the broad culture of,

708
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:46,200
and I mean there are
people all over the world,

709
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,370
but there's such a broad cultural shift

710
00:37:50,370 --> 00:37:52,860
towards this age of capitalism

711
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:56,430
and removal from values

712
00:37:56,430 --> 00:37:59,340
that include earth honoring ways

713
00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:02,580
that a lot of that culture I think

714
00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:05,602
has just been whitewashed,

715
00:38:05,602 --> 00:38:08,670
for lack of a better term.

716
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:11,700
Colonized is another term.

717
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:13,023
Yeah, exactly.

718
00:38:14,490 --> 00:38:16,650
So whereas once, you know,

719
00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:19,020
you might be really excited to receive

720
00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:21,120
that hand embroidered shirt

721
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,430
that was passed down through generations,

722
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:27,420
it's like now we can just go
buy that thing from whatever,

723
00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:30,330
Amazon that has not much value to it

724
00:38:30,330 --> 00:38:32,474
because it's more of the value of...

725
00:38:32,474 --> 00:38:33,920
-(child cries)
-My kid is crying.

726
00:38:35,580 --> 00:38:38,343
We can pause the recording
at any time if you need to.

727
00:38:38,343 --> 00:38:39,613
-Okay.
-Children.

728
00:38:39,613 --> 00:38:41,553
It's okay, I think he's alright.

729
00:38:44,430 --> 00:38:47,461
Yeah, but there goes my
thought with that interruption.

730
00:38:47,461 --> 00:38:49,650
(Nicole chuckles)

731
00:38:49,650 --> 00:38:52,080
I think there's a couple
directions I could take this,

732
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,940
but one comment I wanted to make is,

733
00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:56,370
I think Sherry Mitchell
was the first place

734
00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:58,590
that I heard this, but I've
heard it a few more times,

735
00:38:58,590 --> 00:39:00,750
particularly from people of color,

736
00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:05,750
but acknowledging that the
wound of being colonized,

737
00:39:07,020 --> 00:39:10,300
our ancestors, our white ancestors
being colonized in Europe

738
00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:12,750
was never healed.

739
00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:17,160
And then we carried it to
the shores of, you know,

740
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,370
North America, we carried
it to the shores of Africa

741
00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:24,720
in the way that unhealed
wounds and ancestral trauma

742
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,370
get played out and
played out and played out

743
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:27,633
until they get healed.

744
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,630
So I think that's another
interesting perspective

745
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:34,260
on whiteness and I think it
resonates with your instinct

746
00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:36,900
about white supremacy and control

747
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:39,810
coming from a wounded place

748
00:39:39,810 --> 00:39:42,093
and a place of false power.

749
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,850
Yeah, absolutely.

750
00:39:44,850 --> 00:39:47,460
Yeah, I mean it's just been
really interesting to watch,

751
00:39:47,460 --> 00:39:49,740
you know, in these last 20 or so years,

752
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:52,770
like yoga becoming popularized,

753
00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:54,960
like Buddhism being popular,

754
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,860
so many white skinned people
really grasping for things

755
00:39:58,860 --> 00:40:02,490
of other culture because of, you know,

756
00:40:02,490 --> 00:40:05,400
the spiritual awakening
that wants to happen here

757
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,120
but doesn't really have
the cultural context intact

758
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,623
to hold onto.

759
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:14,520
And so that's, I do
really feel passionately

760
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,910
about the path upon the CM work that I do

761
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:20,463
in that way that it was able to preserve.

762
00:40:21,330 --> 00:40:24,060
But again, it's just like one way in

763
00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:27,720
and we all have bodies
and we all have, you know,

764
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,080
breath and we all have
the ability to just listen

765
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,093
and come back to this,

766
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:36,210
to this direct transmission

767
00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:38,550
because all of it came from somewhere.

768
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:39,960
It all started somewhere

769
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,333
and it can start again.

770
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:48,120
I've heard of people
in some of the tribes,

771
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,885
the first nations people of this country,

772
00:40:51,885 --> 00:40:56,520
they talk about how
they've had to remember,

773
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,150
what does this beaded
pattern on this belt mean?

774
00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:02,460
Like what does this feather mean?

775
00:41:02,460 --> 00:41:05,430
Like they've had to piece
back their language together,

776
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:09,090
they've had to kind of
reconstruct what was lost

777
00:41:09,090 --> 00:41:14,090
and they're way ahead of us on that.

778
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:16,530
And so as white skin people,

779
00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:18,960
I do think it's important
to kind of reconstruct

780
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,500
and really feel what the particular like

781
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:26,220
flavor and aesthetic and practice

782
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:28,470
and relationship to food and to plants

783
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:29,670
and to all of those things.

784
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:34,050
Like what is it that we can
remember and reconstruct.

785
00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:37,800
And not to hold onto it so
tightly, not to grasp at it,

786
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,360
but to hold it with reverence
and see it in the tapestry

787
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,043
of all of the beautiful influence
that we can call upon, so.

788
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,750
Yeah, I think it's been an
ongoing important conversation,

789
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:54,570
but I feel like it's getting
new life and new urgency.

790
00:41:54,570 --> 00:41:58,650
But the concern around
cultural appropriation

791
00:41:58,650 --> 00:42:01,440
specifically in herbalism
and by white herbalist

792
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,100
and white herbal professionals like myself

793
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:09,810
and the way that because
our privilege gives us

794
00:42:09,810 --> 00:42:12,390
different access, different
ability to create businesses,

795
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:14,430
different abilities to teach

796
00:42:14,430 --> 00:42:17,340
in higher education institutions,

797
00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:21,900
but we may not have
integrity with the knowledge

798
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:23,370
that we're sharing.

799
00:42:23,370 --> 00:42:26,697
And I'm just curious
what thoughts you have

800
00:42:26,697 --> 00:42:30,180
and some ways that herbalist, healers,

801
00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:32,250
of particularly of white European descent

802
00:42:32,250 --> 00:42:34,530
can be in integrity

803
00:42:34,530 --> 00:42:38,073
while being on stolen
land in the United States?

804
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:44,270
And in this time where there's
so much access to information

805
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,190
but we may or may not have permission

806
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:51,570
or it may not be an
integrity to be using it.

807
00:42:51,570 --> 00:42:52,403
Yeah.

808
00:42:53,820 --> 00:42:58,530
The commodification of medicine and food,

809
00:42:58,530 --> 00:43:02,850
it seems like a really far,
far stretch to say that

810
00:43:02,850 --> 00:43:04,680
given our current systems.

811
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,390
But that's where my heart
is really about it all.

812
00:43:09,390 --> 00:43:12,840
I think that, you know,
where we are as a culture,

813
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,640
it's everything is commodified,

814
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,400
including down to water, you know?

815
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,340
I mean since when like
we used to be the keepers

816
00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:22,680
of the wells and we
used to all as a people

817
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,670
protect the waters from
pollution and it's like now,

818
00:43:26,670 --> 00:43:28,800
it's all packaged up in plastic

819
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,750
and then that plastic's
ending up in the ocean.

820
00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:32,583
I mean it's just, it's a mess.

821
00:43:33,570 --> 00:43:38,570
And I think that if we can
have direct relationship

822
00:43:40,740 --> 00:43:43,260
with the land and know enough

823
00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:47,730
and have enough reverence for
the spirits of this place,

824
00:43:47,730 --> 00:43:51,970
it's just, it's our relationship to

825
00:43:53,550 --> 00:43:55,830
and our responsibility.

826
00:43:55,830 --> 00:43:59,730
You know, you could, I
thought about this question

827
00:43:59,730 --> 00:44:00,870
'cause you had sent it, right?

828
00:44:00,870 --> 00:44:04,020
But it's, you know, you
go to another landscape

829
00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:08,730
and you learn the cultural appropriateness

830
00:44:08,730 --> 00:44:11,160
of what you do when you enter a home.

831
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,530
You know, like in Japan,
you take off your shoes.

832
00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:15,150
It would be offensive if you walked in

833
00:44:15,150 --> 00:44:16,200
with your muddy boots on.

834
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,420
You know, that kind of thing.

835
00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:23,310
So there is something beautiful
to wanting to seek out

836
00:44:23,310 --> 00:44:27,990
what the culturally
appropriate things would be

837
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:32,990
to gather herbs in lands that
are historically not ours

838
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:37,233
and were taken by brutal force.

839
00:44:39,450 --> 00:44:42,750
There is that and I think that
getting into conversations

840
00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:45,567
with the people who were of this land

841
00:44:45,567 --> 00:44:49,290
and just honoring them
and asking their ways,

842
00:44:49,290 --> 00:44:51,360
I think that that's one thing

843
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,210
and that's very beautiful and important.

844
00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:57,360
But there's also this
other piece that, again,

845
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,010
it's just that, you know,

846
00:44:59,010 --> 00:45:01,230
they ended up here at some point

847
00:45:01,230 --> 00:45:02,910
and we ended up here at some point

848
00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:05,430
and their relationship
might look really different

849
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:07,650
to the land than what ours is.

850
00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:11,010
And the only way that
we as individuals know

851
00:45:11,010 --> 00:45:13,773
what our relationship is
is just to open up to it.

852
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:19,410
So yeah and asking

853
00:45:19,410 --> 00:45:21,813
how do you want to be honored, plants?

854
00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:26,970
You know, 'cause even just a little,

855
00:45:26,970 --> 00:45:29,190
a little minor thing, you know,

856
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:31,950
when I first worked with my shaman teacher

857
00:45:31,950 --> 00:45:34,230
who had worked with the Abenaki,

858
00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:38,220
she was offering tobacco or pieces of hair

859
00:45:38,220 --> 00:45:40,260
or fingernails as an offering

860
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:43,110
when she was taking
something from the land

861
00:45:43,110 --> 00:45:45,123
and asking first of course.

862
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:48,990
But as I've worked,

863
00:45:48,990 --> 00:45:52,590
I've found other things like
cattails wanna be offered

864
00:45:52,590 --> 00:45:56,670
or pollen wants to be offered
or things that are just

865
00:45:56,670 --> 00:46:00,160
mean something to me in the
relationship that I have

866
00:46:01,050 --> 00:46:04,863
in my token of gratitude
that I'm offering, so.

867
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,973
That resonates.

868
00:46:10,556 --> 00:46:12,330
I had a question, I feel like it left.

869
00:46:12,330 --> 00:46:15,153
Oh, one of the things that
I've been curious about,

870
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:18,840
particularly as I dig a little bit back

871
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,930
into the history of medicine,

872
00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:24,360
women, medicine people in Europe

873
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,820
is that there's a very gendered component.

874
00:46:26,820 --> 00:46:30,330
A lot of the records and
the history really speaks

875
00:46:30,330 --> 00:46:33,150
to that it was the medicine women

876
00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:34,683
at least that were persecuted.

877
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:38,100
And I'm just curious what
knowledge you have about that

878
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:39,780
or what your experience of gender,

879
00:46:39,780 --> 00:46:43,380
because in my experience,
all bodies carry medicine

880
00:46:43,380 --> 00:46:45,690
and the ability to see.

881
00:46:45,690 --> 00:46:47,580
And I'm just curious what your thoughts

882
00:46:47,580 --> 00:46:49,290
on how gender fits into this

883
00:46:49,290 --> 00:46:50,890
both historically and currently.

884
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:52,823
Sure.

885
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:00,060
So the wombic aspect,

886
00:47:00,060 --> 00:47:05,060
the aspect of of having a
womb as a place of creation

887
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:10,090
simply that all things
are are born of woman

888
00:47:11,610 --> 00:47:14,013
in the physical sense, right?

889
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:19,260
I would say that there is something about

890
00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:22,560
having a physical womb
and having the cycle

891
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,880
of life and death with working
with cycles of the moon

892
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,270
and the moon blood

893
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,970
that really can inform ways of seeing,

894
00:47:32,970 --> 00:47:35,880
particularly ways of seeing in the dark

895
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,870
that in the honeybee
tradition it's, you know,

896
00:47:39,870 --> 00:47:42,780
that ability to go into the dark

897
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:46,120
to kind of work with the
alchemical magic of the hive

898
00:47:47,310 --> 00:47:48,900
and also, you know,

899
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:50,340
likening that to a woman's body.

900
00:47:50,340 --> 00:47:53,640
The ability to drop
into the womb as a place

901
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,190
that connects you to the
void or to the other world

902
00:47:57,270 --> 00:47:59,580
and a place of nurturing and of healing

903
00:47:59,580 --> 00:48:02,357
and of magic really.

904
00:48:02,357 --> 00:48:05,820
I mean to form an entire human, right?

905
00:48:05,820 --> 00:48:10,110
But that's not to say
that that doesn't belong

906
00:48:10,110 --> 00:48:12,030
to all beings.

907
00:48:12,030 --> 00:48:15,990
So if somebody is born
in a male sexed body,

908
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:19,350
it doesn't mean that there
isn't the wombic aspect

909
00:48:19,350 --> 00:48:24,350
of each individual and
also in nature, you know,

910
00:48:25,650 --> 00:48:29,520
assigning gender to nature.

911
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,600
That's also something.

912
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,660
You know I do sense
that there are certain,

913
00:48:33,660 --> 00:48:37,710
more lunar or feminine
qualities to certain plants,

914
00:48:37,710 --> 00:48:39,393
mugwort being one of them, right?

915
00:48:40,350 --> 00:48:42,900
But there's, I think that there's,

916
00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:46,020
I personally feel that
there's fluidity in gender

917
00:48:46,020 --> 00:48:48,330
and it's pourable, it's malleable,

918
00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:51,510
it's in measure, in all things.

919
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:56,100
So just as much as I have
a physical womb in my body,

920
00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:00,060
I also have the energetic
phallus and I have, you know,

921
00:49:00,060 --> 00:49:03,840
the ability to work with
form and with structure

922
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,860
just as much as I have
capability to go into the chaos

923
00:49:07,860 --> 00:49:11,520
and the unknowing of the
dark and the sacred feminine.

924
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,280
And I think that it's a conscious choice

925
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,280
to engage with those aspects

926
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,700
and some people are more inclined
towards one or the other.

927
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:22,680
And as far as historically speaking,

928
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,520
I think that it was probably

929
00:49:26,370 --> 00:49:29,850
more typically physicalized I would think,

930
00:49:29,850 --> 00:49:30,720
I don't really know.

931
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:35,450
I would be talking from
guesses if I were to say why,

932
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:39,840
why most of the witches
that were burned were women.

933
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,860
But there were definitely instances

934
00:49:43,860 --> 00:49:46,863
of men being accused
of witchcraft as well.

935
00:49:48,030 --> 00:49:50,073
Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

936
00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:52,223
Yeah.

937
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,040
What are your thoughts on folks

938
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,790
who are reclaiming the
title of witch or wizard

939
00:49:59,790 --> 00:50:03,000
and what is the sort of personal
choice that you have made

940
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,853
if any, around your title?

941
00:50:08,070 --> 00:50:12,100
So I would say that

942
00:50:13,950 --> 00:50:18,300
titles are something that I
don't particularly care for,

943
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:21,090
for myself, I don't claim them personally.

944
00:50:21,090 --> 00:50:24,090
But if somebody wants to label me as such,

945
00:50:24,090 --> 00:50:25,803
I'm all ears.

946
00:50:29,010 --> 00:50:31,980
I would say label me
with what you perceive

947
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:33,600
that I provide.

948
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,420
That's how I would speak about it.

949
00:50:36,420 --> 00:50:39,150
If somebody were to call me a witch,

950
00:50:39,150 --> 00:50:40,920
I would stand in solidarity

951
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,890
with the millions that lost their lives

952
00:50:43,890 --> 00:50:45,180
to the witch trials.

953
00:50:45,180 --> 00:50:50,180
And that in the broad
definition of what a witch is,

954
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,890
I would say that I probably fit

955
00:50:52,890 --> 00:50:56,100
some of those characteristics
in terms of being,

956
00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:57,720
you know, connecting to nature

957
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,443
and to unseen realms and whatnot.

958
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,810
But I don't call myself, I don't
openly call myself a witch.

959
00:51:06,810 --> 00:51:08,910
I don't openly call myself a shaman.

960
00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:11,460
Have I been called those things? Yes.

961
00:51:11,460 --> 00:51:14,220
And yeah, again,

962
00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:18,720
I'm really not into like
dogma and labels and so.

963
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:20,703
Yeah, I respect that.

964
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,530
Is there anything else that
you feel called to share

965
00:51:25,530 --> 00:51:27,960
or Bayla, do you wanna speak something

966
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,373
into this conversation?

967
00:51:33,107 --> 00:51:34,650
I just, I have a lot of friends

968
00:51:34,650 --> 00:51:36,600
and have had a lot of friends for years

969
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,560
that have called me a witch
in a very, like loving,

970
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,560
like you're with nature,
you're uplifting kind of way.

971
00:51:46,170 --> 00:51:50,760
And as I've gotten older
and learned more about

972
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,550
what being a witch has meant

973
00:51:53,550 --> 00:51:55,380
and what it still means, and Catherine,

974
00:51:55,380 --> 00:51:59,850
I saw your article about the
witch burning in Guatemala

975
00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:03,480
and I've kind of like shrunken
into that a little bit

976
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,240
and I'm a little bit afraid
to say that about myself

977
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,310
and I have stepped away a
little bit from that label

978
00:52:13,740 --> 00:52:16,930
because it carries a lot of weight

979
00:52:18,810 --> 00:52:23,810
and part of me feels like I'm
maybe not ready or not worthy

980
00:52:24,990 --> 00:52:26,130
of carrying that weight.

981
00:52:26,130 --> 00:52:28,530
So that's something that I work with

982
00:52:28,530 --> 00:52:30,423
and turn over in myself a lot.

983
00:52:31,260 --> 00:52:32,700
But it is, on the other hand,

984
00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:35,100
just something to call somebody.

985
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:39,420
It doesn't necessarily mean a
specific thing about a person.

986
00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:42,480
So I like your, not a aversion,

987
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,440
but choice to remove
yourself from those labels

988
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,113
'cause that feels powerful to me.

989
00:52:52,171 --> 00:52:54,510
Yeah, yeah and that's not
to say that we shy away

990
00:52:54,510 --> 00:52:56,940
from the conversation, you know?

991
00:52:56,940 --> 00:52:59,250
What historically has been called a witch

992
00:52:59,250 --> 00:53:02,940
and what culturally has become the witch,

993
00:53:02,940 --> 00:53:05,373
it looks quite different I would say.

994
00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:10,170
I wrote to my six year old teacher,

995
00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:13,920
my six year old's teacher in first grade.

996
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,283
I had a few things to
share with her about,

997
00:53:18,570 --> 00:53:21,210
you know, what was coming
home with the stories

998
00:53:21,210 --> 00:53:24,360
around Halloween and the
green face of the witch

999
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,530
and that the witches like to
drink little kids like blood

1000
00:53:28,530 --> 00:53:29,520
or just like, you know,

1001
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,193
whatever the storybooks
that they were sharing.

1002
00:53:33,090 --> 00:53:35,647
And I just wrote and I said, you know,

1003
00:53:35,647 --> 00:53:40,530
you know, culturally what
kind of genocide this was.

1004
00:53:40,530 --> 00:53:44,733
I mean, millions of
people were killed for,

1005
00:53:45,570 --> 00:53:47,250
you know, earth loving ways

1006
00:53:47,250 --> 00:53:52,250
and to kind of like make a caricature

1007
00:53:52,650 --> 00:53:57,123
of what a witch is today, like
I find that pretty offensive.

1008
00:53:59,610 --> 00:54:02,700
Yeah, I could get into to more about that,

1009
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:07,350
but it is a complicated story

1010
00:54:07,350 --> 00:54:09,270
because as much as you
don't want, you know,

1011
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:13,320
for me I don't necessarily resonate

1012
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,070
on a aesthetic,

1013
00:54:17,070 --> 00:54:19,320
aesthetic in like cultural level

1014
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,630
with like the widespread image of like

1015
00:54:21,630 --> 00:54:24,060
what a Wiccan or witch kind of looks like.

1016
00:54:24,060 --> 00:54:25,980
You know, I think of like, you know,

1017
00:54:25,980 --> 00:54:28,593
more like goth kind of witch thing.

1018
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:33,630
And then also like the
caricature of the witch

1019
00:54:33,630 --> 00:54:35,610
with like the green skin and the big nose

1020
00:54:35,610 --> 00:54:36,443
and all these things.

1021
00:54:36,443 --> 00:54:39,600
And it's just like, it
maybe there is a call

1022
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,120
to kind of stand up, be like,
yeah, and I'm a witch too.

1023
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,760
So maybe there's like a
whole section of things

1024
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,990
and actually if I ever
call myself a witch,

1025
00:54:46,990 --> 00:54:49,470
it is to my daughter just so that she has

1026
00:54:49,470 --> 00:54:54,093
like a reference of all
the possibilities of witch.

1027
00:54:56,460 --> 00:54:58,350
But yeah, I don't know.

1028
00:54:58,350 --> 00:55:00,690
It is, it's a big conversation.

1029
00:55:00,690 --> 00:55:03,243
I'd need to do some more
research I think for,

1030
00:55:04,290 --> 00:55:09,000
to feel like I could take on the mantle

1031
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,473
of calling myself witch.

1032
00:55:11,352 --> 00:55:12,780
It's so interesting that you say that

1033
00:55:12,780 --> 00:55:15,780
because it was when my
son was in sixth grade

1034
00:55:15,780 --> 00:55:18,307
that he and his friends
came home talking about,

1035
00:55:18,307 --> 00:55:21,090
you know, what witches do,

1036
00:55:21,090 --> 00:55:23,043
like eating small children.

1037
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:28,590
And so I also went into
the teacher's office

1038
00:55:28,590 --> 00:55:30,330
and shared similar thoughts and said,

1039
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:33,360
you know, like there are many people

1040
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,300
in my community that Liam
interacts with on a regular basis

1041
00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:37,920
that would call themselves witches.

1042
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,860
And I sometimes use that
label for myself as well.

1043
00:55:40,860 --> 00:55:44,160
And I think it's really
important that you acknowledge

1044
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,110
this history and that you acknowledge

1045
00:55:46,110 --> 00:55:49,710
the suppression of this
and the discrimination.

1046
00:55:49,710 --> 00:55:51,390
And I actually brought in,

1047
00:55:51,390 --> 00:55:54,030
there's a children's book by Starhawk

1048
00:55:54,030 --> 00:55:56,220
called "The Last Wild Witch".

1049
00:55:56,220 --> 00:55:58,770
So he agreed to read that in the class

1050
00:55:58,770 --> 00:56:00,180
and speak a little bit about it.

1051
00:56:00,180 --> 00:56:01,323
He's very receptive.

1052
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,530
But I think it is such an important piece

1053
00:56:04,530 --> 00:56:06,120
to be advocating around.

1054
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,810
And I guess the last question
that I'll sort of end on

1055
00:56:09,810 --> 00:56:12,813
is I'm just curious for both of you,

1056
00:56:13,710 --> 00:56:17,310
given that you're sort of
claiming aspects of the identity

1057
00:56:17,310 --> 00:56:20,550
of a medicine woman in white skin

1058
00:56:20,550 --> 00:56:23,250
and that that has been a
very dangerous thing to do

1059
00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:25,650
at certain times in our history,

1060
00:56:25,650 --> 00:56:28,800
do you ever encounter
a certain level of fear

1061
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,863
of that persecution and how
does that show up for you?

1062
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:34,913
Yeah.

1063
00:56:37,410 --> 00:56:41,430
Moving to Middlebury, Vermont, you know,

1064
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:42,750
when I first came here,

1065
00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:45,090
I had come from,

1066
00:56:45,090 --> 00:56:47,010
I was in Brooklyn for many years

1067
00:56:47,010 --> 00:56:51,240
and I feel like anything
goes there, right?

1068
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:54,150
And then I was in Taos, New Mexico,

1069
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:58,980
where there's really a strong
culture of medicine people

1070
00:56:58,980 --> 00:57:02,130
and appreciation for shamanism

1071
00:57:02,130 --> 00:57:04,800
and all the weird things I do.

1072
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:06,600
Weird in the good sense of the word.

1073
00:57:07,620 --> 00:57:09,420
And then I moved to Middlebury, Vermont,

1074
00:57:09,420 --> 00:57:12,630
and I looked around and I was like,

1075
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:15,900
oh, okay, I might need
to cloak a little bit.

1076
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:17,550
And I think that that's, you know,

1077
00:57:17,550 --> 00:57:21,420
looking back on why we kind of developed

1078
00:57:21,420 --> 00:57:24,743
the farming aspect what we did first.

1079
00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:30,660
I think that was kind
of my bit of disguise.

1080
00:57:30,660 --> 00:57:33,180
It took me quite a few
years to kind of come out

1081
00:57:33,180 --> 00:57:36,840
and put on my website
that I do shamanic work.

1082
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,550
It was all very like word of mouth

1083
00:57:38,550 --> 00:57:40,120
and kind of behind the scenes

1084
00:57:41,250 --> 00:57:44,580
until I felt that I had enough

1085
00:57:44,580 --> 00:57:48,390
of a wholesome standing in my community.

1086
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:49,590
Because if you, you know,

1087
00:57:49,590 --> 00:57:52,050
if somebody knows you
and then you're like,

1088
00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:54,000
oh yeah, and I consider myself a witch

1089
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,343
or I consider myself a
shamanic practitioner,

1090
00:57:57,270 --> 00:57:58,890
then it's like, oh, okay.

1091
00:57:58,890 --> 00:58:01,650
So there's something that they
might have been stuck with

1092
00:58:01,650 --> 00:58:04,350
that then opens up in their perception

1093
00:58:04,350 --> 00:58:07,883
as opposed to if they don't
know anything about you

1094
00:58:07,883 --> 00:58:10,200
and you introduce yourself as a witch.

1095
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,200
It's like there's a wall that comes up

1096
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,603
and there's a block to
getting to know you.

1097
00:58:16,530 --> 00:58:20,220
So I feel like we were quite quiet

1098
00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:24,330
about our entry into
this part of the world.

1099
00:58:24,330 --> 00:58:26,163
It feels quite conservative here.

1100
00:58:28,530 --> 00:58:31,590
And more just about judgment.

1101
00:58:31,590 --> 00:58:36,590
I've never felt afraid
for my physical body

1102
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,640
or my life in any way.

1103
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,630
And I feel very privileged
to not have had that

1104
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:47,583
in response to my
beliefs or my background.

1105
00:58:49,950 --> 00:58:53,223
Yeah, I recognize that as
a privilege, I should say.

1106
00:58:55,633 --> 00:58:57,690
But yeah, as far as beliefs,

1107
00:58:57,690 --> 00:59:02,253
I've definitely tiptoed in
certain arenas for sure.

1108
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,583
Bayla, do you wanna share
anything with regard to that?

1109
00:59:08,820 --> 00:59:13,230
Sure, I mean I've been
kind of considering myself

1110
00:59:13,230 --> 00:59:17,580
a medicine person for
definitely not as long

1111
00:59:17,580 --> 00:59:19,023
as both of you have.

1112
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,400
And I'll echo what Nicole said.

1113
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:28,380
I have never felt afraid
for my physical health

1114
00:59:28,380 --> 00:59:32,820
in this belief system,

1115
00:59:32,820 --> 00:59:37,140
but I am also kind of
subconsciously very careful

1116
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:39,690
who I share my beliefs with.

1117
00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:42,450
And I notice that when
I'm meeting new people

1118
00:59:42,450 --> 00:59:44,183
and they're like, what do you
do? What are your hobbies?

1119
00:59:44,183 --> 00:59:47,450
I'm like, this is my biggest
hobby and do I want to...

1120
00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:51,270
Do I want to share this with this person?

1121
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:54,723
How will that affect
their reaction towards me?

1122
00:59:57,810 --> 00:59:59,370
But in that sense,

1123
00:59:59,370 --> 01:00:02,490
I do live in a community
that is very accepting

1124
01:00:02,490 --> 01:00:04,920
and there are a lot of
medicine people here

1125
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,533
and a lot of them are really tucked in.

1126
01:00:10,020 --> 01:00:14,183
So I think that has
instilled a sense of like,

1127
01:00:14,183 --> 01:00:16,140
keep it on the low like this.

1128
01:00:16,140 --> 01:00:21,140
We do live in a pretty
conservative state politically

1129
01:00:22,530 --> 01:00:25,683
and I have a very
conservative extended family,

1130
01:00:26,580 --> 01:00:28,860
although they are very, they're like,

1131
01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:30,690
whoa, that's cool that you do that.

1132
01:00:30,690 --> 01:00:32,673
Like gimme some elderberry sometime.

1133
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:39,200
So yeah, I think in my head
when I get into my head

1134
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:43,440
and imagine like my place

1135
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,590
and how I want to express my place,

1136
01:00:46,590 --> 01:00:49,020
that's where I feel a little bit more fear

1137
01:00:49,020 --> 01:00:53,520
and I feel pretty consistently

1138
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,460
that I have to justify
what I'm doing to people

1139
01:00:56,460 --> 01:01:00,420
instead of just kind of putting
it out there and being like,

1140
01:01:00,420 --> 01:01:03,720
this is how I communicate with
plants and I ask for consent

1141
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,900
and I feel like I always have
to back that up with like,

1142
01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:08,730
because this, this, this and this

1143
01:01:08,730 --> 01:01:13,143
instead of just being able to
express that as my own truth.

1144
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,710
So that's something that
becomes a little bit tiring

1145
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:20,043
to keep having to repeat
myself all the time.

1146
01:01:21,630 --> 01:01:25,863
But otherwise, I find it really
empowering within my myself.

1147
01:01:27,570 --> 01:01:30,783
Yeah, I just wanna add something to that.

1148
01:01:31,950 --> 01:01:36,950
Just how grateful I am to
be in this part of history

1149
01:01:37,830 --> 01:01:40,950
and how grateful I am to the women

1150
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:43,380
who really held on to these ways

1151
01:01:43,380 --> 01:01:46,560
and who weren't afraid
to continue to practice,

1152
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,200
even if in the face of
their super conservative

1153
01:01:51,150 --> 01:01:54,330
families and colleagues.

1154
01:01:54,330 --> 01:01:59,130
And, you know, the
necessity of hiding things

1155
01:01:59,130 --> 01:02:02,880
and the fear that still
might reside in our DNA

1156
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:07,880
and the cosmological work
that we have to continue to do

1157
01:02:07,890 --> 01:02:10,680
and continue to have
conversations like this and like,

1158
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,900
thank you both for
inviting me to this call

1159
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:15,540
because you know, maybe some,

1160
01:02:15,540 --> 01:02:17,880
when I think of an institution like UVM,

1161
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,520
I think, okay, wow, that's really amazing.

1162
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,130
Like five years ago even,

1163
01:02:23,130 --> 01:02:25,620
there would never have been a conversation

1164
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:28,710
that talked about the energetics of plants

1165
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:30,993
and communicating with them in that way.

1166
01:02:32,460 --> 01:02:34,970
And so there's progress and I think we do,

1167
01:02:34,970 --> 01:02:37,950
we really need to just like
keep finding the language

1168
01:02:37,950 --> 01:02:41,970
that bridges and the language
that kind of gently opens

1169
01:02:41,970 --> 01:02:45,060
as opposed to like penetratively

1170
01:02:45,060 --> 01:02:46,773
creating a divide, you know?

1171
01:02:48,990 --> 01:02:50,880
So there's yeah, there's hope.

1172
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,076
I feel a lot of hope, yeah.

1173
01:02:53,076 --> 01:02:55,260
Yeah, I'm really grateful
for this conversation.

1174
01:02:55,260 --> 01:02:57,570
And one of the things I wanna say

1175
01:02:57,570 --> 01:03:00,660
is I'm really grateful to the
University of Vermont for,

1176
01:03:00,660 --> 01:03:02,210
you know, in the ways that they

1177
01:03:03,690 --> 01:03:05,520
relatively semester to semester,

1178
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,110
I don't have a whole lot of job security,

1179
01:03:07,110 --> 01:03:08,940
but for the past 30 years,

1180
01:03:08,940 --> 01:03:10,470
they've been teaching plant medicine

1181
01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:13,020
and I've been teaching it for five years

1182
01:03:13,020 --> 01:03:17,340
and I was just awarded
$1,000 to study with Nicole.

1183
01:03:17,340 --> 01:03:22,340
So and it was really vulnerable
for me to ask for that

1184
01:03:22,808 --> 01:03:24,000
from the academy.

1185
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:25,860
And I didn't get a lot of pushback.

1186
01:03:25,860 --> 01:03:27,240
I secretly think it might have been

1187
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:28,950
'cause they were
overwhelmed in the pandemic.

1188
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:33,930
But I wanna close with a
poem that I actually wrote

1189
01:03:33,930 --> 01:03:35,460
at the beginning of the pandemic

1190
01:03:35,460 --> 01:03:38,760
because one of the things
that came up for me

1191
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:40,380
when we started to go into lockdown

1192
01:03:40,380 --> 01:03:42,420
was it was triggering
what I would consider

1193
01:03:42,420 --> 01:03:45,060
to be ancestral trauma

1194
01:03:45,060 --> 01:03:48,030
for being sort of shut down and
not being able to move about

1195
01:03:48,030 --> 01:03:49,170
with a certain amount of freedom

1196
01:03:49,170 --> 01:03:52,770
that I'd become accustomed to.

1197
01:03:52,770 --> 01:03:56,647
So this is called "Liberation
Dreams and Lockdown".

1198
01:03:56,647 --> 01:03:59,100
"I felt you before I saw you.

1199
01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:01,680
A tightening in my shoulders and jaw,

1200
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,130
dead weight like a stone
covering my whole body.

1201
01:04:05,130 --> 01:04:07,590
I chose the luxury of
avoiding these feelings

1202
01:04:07,590 --> 01:04:10,020
with pleasurable distractions,

1203
01:04:10,020 --> 01:04:12,840
but now I'm flattened
as if by a steam roller

1204
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,860
with few places else to
go and an obvious choice.

1205
01:04:16,860 --> 01:04:19,710
And there you are, chained in the corner,

1206
01:04:19,710 --> 01:04:22,290
chest heaving with fierce resistance,

1207
01:04:22,290 --> 01:04:26,310
ragged with centuries
old rage and desperation,

1208
01:04:26,310 --> 01:04:28,980
body dirty and emaciated,

1209
01:04:28,980 --> 01:04:30,390
dull with fatigue,

1210
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:34,290
yet eyes a light with the
fire of injustice and betrayal

1211
01:04:34,290 --> 01:04:36,363
and pure feral power.

1212
01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:41,400
You represent an ancient wound
of trapped and abused women.

1213
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,070
A wound shared by all bodies cut off

1214
01:04:44,070 --> 01:04:46,080
from the nurturing feminine,

1215
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,450
the sacred container of community,

1216
01:04:48,450 --> 01:04:50,430
a distant memory.

1217
01:04:50,430 --> 01:04:53,250
You mirror our trapped and abused earth,

1218
01:04:53,250 --> 01:04:55,530
restrained and redirected,

1219
01:04:55,530 --> 01:05:00,330
chained and exploited and
valued only as a resource

1220
01:05:00,330 --> 01:05:02,940
stolen or missed potential.

1221
01:05:02,940 --> 01:05:06,480
A tragic blind spot,
born of greed and fear.

1222
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,570
A tense vessel for the
deep howl of despair

1223
01:05:09,570 --> 01:05:12,093
of countless misdirected lives.

1224
01:05:13,230 --> 01:05:16,410
But I hold your gaze and
there is recognition,

1225
01:05:16,410 --> 01:05:19,920
then solidarity, then hope.

1226
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:23,370
Your body is a pathway to deep healing.

1227
01:05:23,370 --> 01:05:25,140
Healing your broken heart,

1228
01:05:25,140 --> 01:05:28,380
healing the lineage of broken
hearts that proceed you.

1229
01:05:28,380 --> 01:05:30,240
Healing is simple.

1230
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:32,730
Shed the shackles that bind you.

1231
01:05:32,730 --> 01:05:34,623
There is no one to stop you now.

1232
01:05:35,550 --> 01:05:38,430
Witness me as I witness you

1233
01:05:38,430 --> 01:05:41,880
in compassionate tender sisterhood.

1234
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,220
Allow me to rub healing plants

1235
01:05:44,220 --> 01:05:47,040
on your shaved wrists and ankles.

1236
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:50,850
Allow me to wash the dirt
and self-pity from your face

1237
01:05:50,850 --> 01:05:53,130
and skin with warm rose petal

1238
01:05:53,130 --> 01:05:56,040
and calendula blossom infused water.

1239
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:00,780
Allow me to receive your stories
of broken hopes and dreams.

1240
01:06:00,780 --> 01:06:04,230
Allow us to dream our liberation together.

1241
01:06:04,230 --> 01:06:07,380
It is no longer our filth to bear.

1242
01:06:07,380 --> 01:06:09,627
There's no one to stop us now."

1243
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,090
Thank you for joining in
this poking conversation.

1244
01:06:18,090 --> 01:06:19,800
Thank you to the students for listening

1245
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,620
and remaining open to different ways

1246
01:06:22,620 --> 01:06:24,720
of knowing and being in the world

1247
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,387
and blessings on the work

1248
01:06:27,387 --> 01:06:29,237
and the healing that we're all doing.

1249
01:06:30,330 --> 01:06:31,920
Yes, thank you so much.

1250
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,450
It's been really an honor.

1251
01:06:33,450 --> 01:06:37,323
That was a beautiful
sharing that you offered.