-: All right, why don't we get started since we have an hour
with our students and we wanna maximize it.
So welcome everybody.
We really are so glad that you're here.
I'm Jen Garrett-Ostermiller, a staff member
in The Center for Teaching & Learning
and genuinely excited to spend time with you all,
and particularly our student panelists.
I'd love for my co-organizer friend
and sometimes co-conspirator to introduce herself.
-: Hi, I'm Susanmarie Harrington
from the Writing in the Disciplines Program
and we do a lot of programming around faculty,
responding to students,
and it is high time that we're collaborating
on some programming that really features student voices
and hear what it's all about.
-: And to just center ourselves a little bit
'cause I'm sure we're all coming from meetings
and classes and other things,
in backward course design
we focus first on learning objectives
and then we say, okay, what does assessment look like?
How do students and faculty know if individuals in the class
and the class collectively are progressing towards mastery
of those objectives.
And of course tied closely to assessments and assignments
are grading and feedback.
How do faculty communicate with students about
their progress in a class?
What is effectively communicated?
What is ineffectively communicated?
What is inadvertently communicated?
And while the CTL and WID have recently run workshops
and book groups on re-imagining assessment and grading,
alternative approaches to grading.
We also believe it's important to bring student voices
into the conversation.
So we've invited five students, all juniors and seniors,
to share their experiences with and perspectives
on grading and feedback.
As with any panel,
we want to recognize a few things before we jump in.
First, there is so much value in hearing from our students.
And at the same time,
there's also the danger of a single story.
So Susanmarie and I have been clear
that we have no expectations
that these panelists can speak for all students.
And that's important for you all, as you hear their stories.
So to just think about their ideas as additional fodder
for your growth and development and maybe it will prompt you
to think about some other conversations you can have
with students in your classes about grading and feedback,
eating, lunchtime.
Second, we've asked the panelists to talk with their friends
in preparation for today.
So some of the examples you hear today
may be gleaned from a broader peer group.
And then third, we're centering the majority
of our time with the panelists
on questions that they've had some time to think about.
We're gonna try to spend about 45 minutes
having them discuss questions we gave them in advance
and then we'll work to reserve about 15 minutes
for audience questions.
At the end of an hour,
we'll let our students get back to their busy lives
and then we'll stay together for an additional 30 minutes
to reflect on what we've heard
and what we've learned from our student colleagues.
I'm going to turn things over to Susanmarie
to help introduce our panelists.
-: Well, actually I'm gonna invite the panelists
to introduce themselves by simply telling us your name,
your pronouns, where you are in your studies at UVM,
what you're studying and just one word
to describe your experience with grading and feedback
with a short explanation of life.
So we start with Julia.
-: Yeah, so hi, I'm Julia Bernier.
I use she/her pronouns and I'm a senior at UVM,
majoring in neuroscience and minoring in chemistry.
And if I had to use one word to describe my experience
with grading and feedback, I would say variable
because I've definitely had some really good experiences
and I've had some not so good experiences.
So I guess it's just it ranges from class to class
and I can get into it a little bit more later
but I would use that word for sure.
-: Thank you.
-: Hi everyone, my name is Isabelle Fisher.
I use she/her pronouns, I am a senior at UVM
and I'm majoring in biomedical engineering.
One word to describe my experience
with feedback and grading is bittersweet.
I'm sure all the students here
or even people who've been great at other things
can recognize that heart drop
when you see your grade has been posted.
And so I think with that, it can be really,
it can be a good thing if you did really well
but can also be really scary
if you didn't think you did so well.
So again, like Julia said, we can get into it a bit later
but yes, I think bittersweet is a fitting word.
-: Hi everyone, my name is Meg Scagnelli,
I use/she her pronouns.
I am currently a senior majoring in business
with a concentration in marketing and sales,
entrepreneurship, and a minor in applied design.
If I were to use one word I think ever evolving
and of course I've had, we've all had such a long experience
with both grading and feedback.
I say grading used to have a tremendous impact
on my learning and experience in the classroom
but that's changed over time
and it's become less emotionally defining
as I've progressed through school.
And I think my experience has involved in that,
I really value feedback even more than grading
at this point.
-: Oh, hi, I'm Oumaima, she/her pronouns.
I'm a junior medical laboratory science major,
and I would say stressful
regardless of whether I'm doing well or not.
I feel like there's a constant pressure
to meet certain standards.
-: Hi, my name is Megan, I use she/her pronouns.
I am a junior at UVM.
I major in microbiology and I have two minors
in biochemistry and molecular genetics.
My word to describe grading and feedback
is not really a word, kind of a short phrase,
a work in progress.
Very similar to what Meg was saying.
Even as a junior at UVM, I'm still trying to
better my relationship with grading and feedback.
And I'm really trying to still shift my mindset away
from having grades be the defining factor in my education.
So definitely still a work in progress.
-: Wow, maybe we've got a lot to think about there
just with that list of words and perspectives.
So I'm more excited than ever now.
So let's start by thinking about
what some of these terms mean that are connected
with like faculty response and assessment.
And so let's start off with
how do you distinguish between grading and feedback?
Did those things feel different to you?
Maybe we'll start with Isabelle.
-: Hi (mic cracks) feedback feels very different for me
grading feel a bit impersonal.
It can feel like sometimes my value is just a number.
It can be indicative of how well I've done an exam
or an assessment but other times sometimes
that isn't the case.
I'm also a study skills tutor at UVM
and we learned about fixed mindsets versus growth mindsets.
So if I'm kind of putting this in the box I would say,
grading is a fixed mindset
while feedback there's room for growth
and there's room for personal change.
So feedback is much more personal for me,
and just by going this extra step on top of grading
I can kind of see what I did well
what can I improve on for the next time?
So both have very different connotations for me,
and I would say, I definitely prefer
that extra stack with feedback along the grade.
-: And Meg.
Meg, I think you had a comment on that one too.
-: Yes, I'd echo all of that.
I think grading in my mind is (mic cracks)
one number or letter
to define a piece of work and that's the end result
but also it feels like the cumulation of your learning.
And I'd say that (indistinct) it feels more stagnant,
feedback in my mind is something that sizes
how learning is continuous like Isabelle said that
it's really meant to progress your learning
and in college feedback really is an opportunity
for you to receive your professional expertise
as it relates to your work, your growth in the classroom
and what you're leaving with, because hopefully
you're leaving with more than just a grade.
And so like Isabelle said it,
feedback does feel different in that way.
It's much more personal and involved
than a single number or letter.
-: Thank you, I should say, as Jen explained at the beginning
we're gonna focus on our student panelists first
and leave time for Q&A
in the last 15 minutes of our time together.
But please feel free to use the chat to make comments
or questions as conversation is going along
and we can scoot back into the chat then
to help direct our discussion a little bit later.
So if anybody has thoughts or questions
feel free to use the chat.
All right.
So let's turn our attention to some of the effects
of academic grading systems.
And can you think of an example of a time when
grading interfered with your ability to challenge yourself
or to pursue an academic curiosity, Megan?
-: Yeah, so I was actually speaking with my roommates
kind of about these questions
to kind of generate different experiences
and it was interesting me 'cause me and another one,
my roommate had a very similar example and experience
with this where I went to register for one of my classes
that I had to take for my major
and I ended up taking the course with a professor
who I heard was an easier grader.
They had more lenient grading guidelines
versus another professor who
I think I would have gotten a better experience
from the course by taking it with him,
but just looking at their grading guidelines
versus the professor I ended up taking the course with,
I actually didn't really pursue that academic curiosity,
and I didn't end up going with the professor
that I would have preferred
because I was so afraid of the differences in grading
and how I was gonna perform
under those different expectations.
So that was definitely an example
that really stood out to me
when reading these questions through.
-: And Mimah.
-: Yeah, so, personally,
personally, I feel like there's a focus
on like you need to get a certain grade,
especially if you're pursuing things like
pre-med, for example,
where you there's like certain like pressures that you feel.
So a lot of times classes will like classes that people take
will end up turning into I need this grade
versus I want to learn the material.
I feel like I know several STEM students who are like,
"Oh I can memorize everything for the exam, get 100
"and then forget everything as soon as I take the exam."
So in that sense, like,
did you take anything away from the class
even though you got like 100.
-: So that leads a little bit into a next question
which is how does grading affect motivation
or your motivation, Julia?
-: Yeah, so I would say it's changed
over the course of my academic career
because at the beginning of college
I was really in mostly science classes
and the grade for those classes
was definitely majorly determined by
how well you did on your exams
and not really many other assignments.
And so there really wasn't that opportunity
for a lot of feedback because you just saw a number
and a lot of times the professors
weren't even the ones grading,
and especially if it was like a multiple choice question
if you didn't understand it
you had to go approach the professor, hoping they had time.
And so it definitely motivated me
to study right before the exam,
but I really do think that I still would have
tried to learn the anyway knowing how important it was
to have that information to go on.
And I think in some cases
it could actually be very ad motivating
because I know some of my friends
if we were in a hard class, for example,
organic chemistry or something like that,
and they got a really bad grade on the first exam,
then in the second thing I almost gave up
or especially if it was on the second exam too,
it was like what's the point
of even learning this material anymore
if I'm not gonna get a good grade
I might as well just drop the class
and it kind of took it.
There was so much emphasis on doing well on the exams
and memorizing specifically what they knew beyond the exams
as opposed to really learning the material holistically,
and it's kind of a sense where once you take the exam
especially if you don't have a cumulative final
it's like you learn the material for the exam
and then you forget it because it's not important anymore.
Whereas if you don't have that grade
and you're actually just trying to learn it throughout.
I think that it definitely could be a much better experience
and you could retain that material for much longer.
So that's my experience with grading specifically
and motivation.
-: Meg.
Meg.
-: Yeah, I can relate to a lot of those experiences
as my classmates can as well.
I think grading and feedback
can both have a big effect on motivation
with grading if it's not subject to change
or receiving a good grade feels great
and it can change the whole lens you're using
to be your time in the classroom
and it can fuel your motivation
because the next assignment
might feel like another opportunity to shine.
And then with a poor grade it can be motivating
to get your act together
and to address whatever learning gap
you might be experiencing.
But it can also feel very discouraging
if you continue to receive grades
that are less than what you thought you'd receive or deserve
it can definitely dull motivation.
And when it comes to feedback again
it can have positive and negative effects on motivation
but I think it's the fact that feedback
feels more constructive
and it's usually pushing you in the direction to grow
and learn more in the course,
it does feel like your professor is invested in you
when you're receiving thorough and thoughtful feedback,
whether good and bad and I think that itself is motivating.
-: And I will just quickly add to that too.
I think that I've had a lot of friends
who I really know that they do know the material,
they're just not good test takers
and for them it's really hard because it really,
it's not always reflective
of how well you know the material,
you might not be very good
at multiple choice questions per se
and being able to look through the trick questions
or something like that.
And so I think that it's not always representative
of the student
-: And Megan
-: I really liked what Meg said about
how feedback is more constructive
because I kinda see grading and feedback
affecting my motivation in kind of different ways.
Whereas I feel my motivation for getting a desired grade
is rather fixed and kind of negative in a way where,
I try to study for an exam or I work on a project
and it's more so that my motivation is like,
okay you need to get a certain grade.
It's all about this grade
versus if I received feedback on a paper
or an assignment that I did
it would kind of push me to more positive motivation.
Okay, my professor really looked at my work
and gave me these guidelines to maybe better my work.
So I feel like that's more of a positive source
of motivation for me versus yeah,
with grading, I just can't help us associate it
with more of a negative source of motivation.
-: So Meg, I can see you nodding a bit there
as Megan was talking and I want to invite you
to tell us about an assignment or class
where learning really progressed.
What was the role of grading or feedback
in that kind of example?
-: Yeah, when I think of learning progression
again I tend to think of feedback first before grading.
And when feedback has been provided that addresses your work
and where you are in your learning,
but also connects to future assignments
and how your work is gonna relate to them
and where you're going in the course
I found that particularly helpful and impactful.
I'm thinking of a few papers and projects
that I've had mostly in business courses and in CDA courses.
So of course that feedback isn't always applicable
but in general, I think feedback that addresses your work
in a really holistic way
that's where my learning has progressed.
That's where the dots have been connected.
-: I may wanna toss it back to Megan.
Can you talk a little bit about
how both grading and feedback affect your learning?
-: Yeah, I definitely started out my time at EVM
centering my learning around grading
and grades and everything I did in the class
was to get a certain grade, was to work towards the grade
instead of working towards, okay
what am I getting out of this course?
What am I getting out of this assignment?
What does this tell me I need to improve on?
But I definitely am trying to get
with letting feedback guide my learning.
Definitely recently, I've been more interested
in receiving feedback, whether that be
reaching out to a professor on a paper
when I'm preparing for a project, if I'm asking for feedback
even if I'm prepping for an exam
I do really like to reach out to professors
and go over some questions that I might have
and really work towards that feedback
because kind of linking it to the question
that we talked about earlier
where the feedback positively motivates me
to really gain a more holistic understanding of concepts
instead of kind of pigeonholing my learning into,
okay how can I get great X or grade Y?
So that's kind of my relationship with grading and learning
versus my feedback and learning.
And again, I'm still working on it,
it depends on the class too
but I really am trying to make both of those aspects
positive motivators and both have useful
and beneficial effects on my learning as well.
-: I'd love to ask a follow-up question
for any of the panelists.
I'm curious like when you think about feedback,
like when do you typically get the most useful feedback
'cause that after you've submitted something?
Like Megan as you were talking you were saying like,
maybe even like preparing for an assignment
I get some feedback but it sounds like that's something
that you're often initiating
versus like the whole class gets it
at like sort of midway point or something.
So I'm just curious for other, like for anyone,
when do you find feedback to be most useful
and how are you getting it?
Is it like universally given?
Are you seeking it?
-: I guess, responding to that,
I definitely I'm the one initiating the feedback
because again like that is one central way of how I learn
and how I'm able to identify
what my strengths and weaknesses are
with what I'm learning in the classroom
versus I know a lot of my friends and my peers
don't take that initiative and then they don't really get
that feedback aspect of their learning until maybe
after the assessment is already done
and in a sense it might be too late for the grading.
So I definitely would say that it's something
that I initiate for all of my assignments that I have.
-: Does anyone else want to chime in on that?
-: For me, I've never really had any feedback.
If I ever get feedback from the professor
that's professor initiated it's once I've gotten the grade
and sometimes if there's another assignment similar,
that's great.
But other times I appreciate the feedback but sometimes
I guess I wish I had some of that feedback before,
because again once the grade is in,
there's never really a chance to change it or improve it.
And I think that that would be a great thing to implement
is to give the feedback and then allow the student
to take that feedback and work with it.
So it's not kind of a one and done thing
but I definitely think it's possible to get feedback
before you get a grade
but I've never really seen it unless it's student initiated.
-: And I think the way we've structured this
I think we're all probably thinking
a little bit about feedback as like,
comments directly to me as a student on something I've done.
I think that faculty often do
some more kind of collective feedback processes,
something about like if you've ever had to use
iClickers in the class that is a form of feedback, right?
Because your being assessed on your learning
like some of the questions presented, you answer
and then you get some feedback in the moment saying
like was your learning was your knowledge clear?
And you know, there's other examples of that.
Sometimes faculty ask students to write down like,
what was the most confusing point of today's class?
And then maybe at the next class period
they're giving feedback to like the themes that they saw.
I'm curious if you all have experienced
that kind of more informal collective feedback
and what your perspectives on that
are compared to kind of this like more personal feedback
that I think we're often thinking about
in the context of grading.
-: I actually love, I didn't even think about that
but I love that type of feedback.
Whenever I had iClicker questions in classes
and the professors actually took the time
after the clicker question to go over it.
I found that that was really helpful for my learning
and it definitely, I think it's a way
for the professor to see how well
the class is understanding the material
and it's a way for them to check in
if they can tell that the class
is understanding the material
to kind of fix that before you move on
and it just keeps getting more and more confusing.
So I definitely have had a positive experience
with iClickers when they're actually discussed after.
And then same with if a professor asks about
was something confusing during today's lecture,
and then they address it the next class.
And I've even had times where we will have
iClicker questions and then the next class,
the professor will realize
that there were gaps in knowledge.
So they take beginning of the class to go over that
before moving on.
I think that that feedback is really helpful
and it's more helpful than feedback
after you've received a grade for something
-: Other thoughts on this sort of individual
versus collective feedback processes.
-: I think like something like the iClicker
or even like Exit Slips at the end of class
is also feedback for the professor.
Like Julia was saying like she and the professors
kind of know where there are gaps of knowledge,
what they could improve on for the next class,
or maybe even like next year's class.
But I think those are great ways
to provide like real time feedback
with not as high as steak.
-: So it becomes, it's a sort of two-way feedback process
not just feedback for the student, yep great.
We can return to any of these themes
as sort of more ideas are sparked, but I'm gonna move on
to our next kind of pre-planned question
and then we can come back if you have other ideas.
So as I think we all know UVM has consistent goals
for inclusivity as an institution,
sometimes grading though it can feel exclusive.
Can you talk about a time or an example when grading
was either inclusive or exclusive
and maybe what instructors could do
to make assessment more inclusive?
Isabelle.
-: Yeah, I remember when classes were still in person,
everyone would filter into the classroom
and this is after an exam.
So you would kind of see the exam breakdown
of who got like A's who got B's, C's,
and it was very daunting to see all those numbers
and it didn't really, it felt kind of more of an attack
if you were on those lower grade scales,
and sometimes the professor would address these grades
in a couple of minutes and just say,
okay this is a breakdown.
This is when you will be getting your grades come up
and get your exam and that was that.
And I think that can be pretty exclusive.
I mean, sometimes it would be followed up by
if you have any problems with your exam
or comments come talk to me within a week
and after that it's me closed.
And in that sense, I did find it was pretty exclusive
because it did put a lot of pressure on the students
then to come in (mic cracks) gonna be really scary
going up to a professor during their office hours one-on-one
and kind of arguing for their grade or even just providing
or seeking some feedback.
So something that a process
to make maybe make this more inclusive
was to kind of discuss it as a class
have some notes prepared for the students and be like,
okay, talk about why the grades were broken down by this.
Why do you think you did well?
Or if you didn't do so well, why do you think that is?
And it could be anonymous, it could just be by show of hands
and really discuss what could be better for next exam.
And so maybe just real time feedback
so other students can hear as well.
So it's not just one-on-one and I think this just goes
to making the environment more comfortable for everyone
and making it very open and transparent.
-: And in the example you gave it was sort of that display
of the grading breakdown.
And then just sort of,
it sounds like maybe that's not objectionable to you
but more it's the like,
what a student's supposed to do with that information
and that putting even just a conversation sort of in place
about if you did well, or if you did poorly sort of,
what can I as the instructor do to support your learning
changes the feeling of seeing that sort of breakdown
from maybe being just sort of a competition
or a ranking to being a moment of learning.
Thanks for Isabelle, that's helpful to think about.
Mimah, I think you have something to add to this question.
I'd love to hear your thoughts
-: But yeah so,
as a student went to several like
marginalized identities in a STEM major
it's often already difficult navigating a lot of spaces
especially with STEM kind of being very like
intensive classes a lot of the times.
So you already have to like study and be on top of stuff.
Plus navigating often being like BIPOC student
in a majority white space can be stressful.
So coming into classes
and hearing professors say things like, well
this number of people fail every year
like right off the bat at the beginning of the semester
it already kind of forces the students
to be kind of like on a defensive like,
oh, like it's my responsibility.
I need to like put in this amount of time
and just make sure that like, I'm really on top of stuff
versus it's almost kind of scary reaching out to professors
hearing something like that 'cause it's like,
oh you're not being a good enough student to pass.
So you have that additional pressure of like,
well it's your responsibility
versus you're welcome to reach out for help
and I know several students who've actually switched
out of my college and several other STEM majors
because were like
I just can't navigate these spaces anymore.
And it's a lot of pressure to perform
up to certain standards.
So I'd rather do something else with my time
which is completely fair.
But at the same time, it shouldn't be on the student
to fix all of that.
-: Yeah, I think in both of these examples
that Mimah you just share it
and then the example that Isabelle shared it feels like,
that sort of classic intent versus impact
that there might've been a intent of the instructor
to try to be transparent about this as a class
that students find challenging and you really got to study.
But the impact of that, the way that messaging
has come through is putting additional burden on students
who may already be feeling stress and pressure
and related to identity related to sort of pass preparation
and then if that shuts down like a place of communication
then that is probably like,
obviously that's helping the student
and probably not really what the instructor intended
but it doesn't matter what they intended
'cause the impact is present.
Thank you both for sharing those examples.
I think it's helping me then think a little bit about
what messages that in those inadvertent messages
that may come through
when we're communicating grading structures
or grading expectations
and how important it is to hear from students
how they're receiving that communication.
Because if I've poorly communicated something
about those expectations around grading
then it could have really severe consequences.
So I appreciate that.
Okay, here's that kind of radical question maybe,
what would happen
if we just didn't grade in higher education?
What would be the benefits and what issues might be raised?
Mimah, I'm gonna start with you.
-: Well, as I was kind of saying
I feel like it would take away a lot of stress
from like the student perspective,
but it's also really hard to track people's understanding.
I feel like a better kind of balance
would be instead of assessments having more smaller quizzes
or something, or not just one big exam
where if you get one bad grade
that's like 30% of your grade for that class
which is really harmful
versus a bunch of like smaller quizzes
that might cover the same material as a singular exam.
So like in that sense,
I focus more on like removing biggest assessments
versus actual grading because grading is kind of helpful
as far as feedback.
It's just like if it's one major grade
that's more harmful in my experience than helpful.
-: Great, let's add some additional voices to this question
about what would happen if we didn't grade Julia.
-: Yeah, so I think that if we didn't grade
the benefits of that would be,
I think for a lot of classes
you'd have a more holistic understanding of the material
because you wouldn't be so focused on just specific parts
of the semester learning specific things.
I think that it could be really beneficial
and I think that taking the stress away
from receiving the grade and actually putting that focus
towards learning the material for future classes
or for your future careers, I mean,
we're getting a degree for a reason
and we're getting this education for a reason.
So I think that that would be really beneficial
and it would also be helpful for the students
who don't do so well on the traditional grading measures.
I think that they would get a better college experience,
the downsides of that,
I do think some students are motivated by a number
and by a grade and so I think that it might be difficult
for some students to be motivated
to put work into the class.
So I think that there definitely should be
another form of accountability.
And just for a specific example for one of my classes
that I really enjoyed the way
that this teacher did her grading.
She did something called specs grading
where it's based on the effort that you put into the course
and that's the grade you get out.
And basically she had all these assignments
and if you do the assignments to a satisfactory level
then you will get this grade.
If you don't want to do one of the assignments
and you get this grade.
And so it kind of, for me satisfactory,
it does it mean just putting a little bit of effort in
I still think a satisfactory level of work is a lot of work
and you're putting a lot of effort in,
so I don't think that it was really a way for students
to slack off but I think that it was nice because
it showed that if you were willing
to put the time into learning the material
and the effort into the class
then you would be rewarded for that.
And so as much, I think all the students at the same thing
it was much more motivating because you really could control
how well you did in the class.
So that's my take on that.
-: Very helpful, thank you.
Okay Isabelle, what are you thoughts
about getting rid of grades?
-: Yeah, so I think some benefits would be less stress
also less pressure and with less pressure,
sometimes people can be lacking motivation
on that side of things.
Grading gives you a perspective
on how well you know the material,
your level of retention and some exams really assess you
on your ability to apply that information.
So there is a fine line between the benefits
and issues of implementing grading in higher education
and something that I just like to point out is last year
students had the option to do a pass/fail with COVID.
And I think that's not always an option for students
to be able to take the grade that they have
and just make it a pass/fail option.
So maybe that is something
that's going to be implemented in future years
and I'd be interested in kind of exploring
that option as well.
-: Yeah, there's some fascinating history
of when like letter grades came into our system
so they didn't know it used to be here,
but we are deeply connected to them at this point.
That's really interesting that I'm bringing up like sort
of that experience of the pass/fail option in spring 2020
and how that might be an interesting thing
to consider going forward.
Yeah, all right, that's going a little tangible.
We've got an audience of faculty and TA instructors.
What advice would you give them
about grading or feedback or both?
Isabelle, I'm gonna start with you.
-: Yes, so for me, timed assignments don't really allow me
to produce the best product possible
versus a product where I can really apply my creativity
and really go all out.
I remember there was one class where I was taking an exam.
I was the last one in there and I think a time to final
and the professor was actually walking out of the classroom
and I was trying to like finish some calculations
and they said, "Okay, like, you don't give it to me now
"like I'm leaving."
And so that was like a major shock to me.
I was already like very stressed out
'cause I was just trying to get this one problem done.
And so with that, I think I always excelled
with producing products that really allow me
to put in my creativity and do some research on my own.
Like there is one class I'm in this semester
that I was able to work with.
So my roommates were in the class
and we produced like a whole movie with like commercials
and like ads on this one drug on the market
and so that was really exciting.
And then for another project, I wrote a whole story
about the student who was suffering from anxiety
and she's (indistinct) feedback and it had like 10 chapters.
So that was like something
that I was like really excited to do.
So I would say me putting more weigh and emphasis
on those creative projects and emphasis on the creativity
within the subject,
rather than those straightforward timed assessments.
I know those are also important but maybe
putting a little bit variability
between the weights of those assignments
into your final grade.
-: Very interesting, thank you.
And Julia, what would you say about this?
What advice would you give?
-: Yeah, I definitely 100% agree with what Isabelle said
and I'm putting just a little bit more weight
onto more assignments so that way it's not so detrimental
and you can assess your learning in different ways.
And I know that it's probably gonna be more work
for the professors.
So maybe having TA's are another way
to make this more manageable.
But I would say with grading and feedback
the only negative thing that, well, not the only,
but one of the negative things that I faced is
when you have papers or lab reports or something like that,
and you get feedback but you don't get feedback
until well after you already had to submit another one,
it's hard because you're making the same mistake
multiple times and you don't realize
you're making the mistake
because you haven't gotten the feedback yet.
So I think if you are gonna have these assignments
just being able to receive the grade
and receive that feedback
before you go on to do the next assignment.
So that way you can actually implement that feedback
instead of just getting it
and then it's too late to make any changes.
That is one thing I would have to say.
And then a really positive experience
I had with feedback is for one of my classes
we had this really big research paper due
but instead of just making it this one paper due
at the end of the semester
the professor broke it up into smaller sections
and she gave us feedback throughout the way.
So by the time when it was time to write the final paper
I was able to take her feedback, correct it
and in the end it was a much better paper I did,
I put a lot more time and effort into it that way
than I would've if I was just writing that paper.
And I think that that was definitely a positive experience
because if you were making a mistake you had time to fix it
while it still wasn't worth as much.
I think everyone had a better product by the end that way.
-: So both timeliness but then also
what we like a formative assessment
like as you're going you're getting feedback
so that by the time you do the sort of bigger final version,
you've had chances to make those corrections
and improve the product, great.
I think sort of on this theme of assessment
and sort of assessing learning,
obviously I think we're kind of all recognizing
that assignments and exams
and all these other kind of structures in a class
are meant to assess,
who's that assessment for, Mimah.
-: I mean, oftentimes when I just get like a number
and no feedback, it feels like it's not really for me
just because like I'm getting a certain number
of multiple choice wrong might not actually show
like comprehension, just cause like I know personally
I have really bad test anxiety,
so I'll like make really stupid mistakes
that like don't actually show my understanding of questions.
It's just like, I got stressed in that moment
and pick the wrong thing or probable the wrong thing
but like getting a number it'll show like,
oh you're about here for understanding, even though like
that might not actually be my understanding of the material
versus like feedback I feel like when I do assignments
and I get comments or even iClicker questions
right off the bat, I kind of have a better understanding
of my own understanding just 'cause it's not just,
oh I'm getting stressed and I'm putting the wrong answer.
Like, especially with assignments
I have time to work on it on my own,
so I can actually demonstrate what I'm understanding
and taking away from the class
so that I feel like that's more genuine
unlike actually represents what I'm taking away.
Same with like iClickers you're in a group of people,
there's like it,
you know what you put
but there's no way of personally being like,
oh you got like this amount wrong
in front of the class type of thing
versus like a previous example where we were talking about
like this number of people got a D on exams and stuff.
So in that sense, grades themselves
don't feel they're for students
but like feedback feels more like it's for students.
-: Thanks, and Isabelle.
-: Yeah, I agree too.
I think for students, grades are about valuing knowledge
and of course to a certain extent
and these grades can be used as tools.
And then for professors,
students grades aren't a reflection of their own knowledge
in content I mean, they're experts on the content
that they are teaching, but the grades
are reflective of their ability to convey that knowledge
to a group who does put an effort who does study for exams,
who goes through the guiding questions
and really make sure that they make sure they know it.
And so if your students aren't doing well collectively
it's time to come up with other ways
of delivering that content to make learning more accessible.
And that's something we also learn at the Tutoring Center
for study skills is to tailor the way you teach
so it best fits the students.
And if that means creating different modes of learning
like different auditory, different visual,
different activities then so be it.
-: That's so interesting thing about
how to make assessment as closely aligned
to a certain set of the group of students as possible.
We have one more pre-planned question,
but I want to put it on hold because
we have some questions from the audience.
And then I think the our last pre-planned question
may be a very good one to end on the whole thing.
Susan, I know you've been like kind of monitoring the chat.
-: Yeah, well, I'm gonna take the last question first
actually because they think it really dovetails
with the last little piece of this conversation.
Caroline, do you want to ask you a question?
Caroline: Yeah, thank you, Susan.
And thank you everybody for participating.
And I totally understand the student's sort of perspective
that just a greater a number is not super useful
in terms of feedback,
but as a faculty member who spends
an enormous amount of time grading papers
and writing comments,
I would like to know from your perspective
what type of comments that faculty write on papers
is more useful and less useful and how as a faculty member
I can kind of try to figure out what is most useful
versus like what is an efficient use of my time.
So sometimes I feel like maybe I'm spending a lot of time
writing comments on papers
and worried that students aren't even reading them.
And so just from your perspective,
like what is useful for me,
what kind of feedback is useful for me to provide?
-: So from a student perspective, I don't know,
I definitely have always run all the comments
that I ever receive.
So I would hope that most students do,
because if you're taking the time to make those comments
I think it's important to read those.
I think that the most,
I don't know if this is specific enough for you,
but the most helpful comments for me
are ways that if it wasn't satisfactory what I wrote
ways that I could improve that, or even a suggestion
as opposed to just what was done wrong in that sense.
I don't know if that really makes sense
but really constructive feedback and how it could be changed
for the next paper or something along those lines.
And then I also really enjoy comments
that are parsed that the professor liked,
because I think that sometimes
when you just get the comments on what you did bad
it makes you feel like you didn't do a good job at all.
But I think that sometimes I know when professors point out
parts that they really liked that is really motivating too.
-: Yeah, I'd agree, I think when professors do that also
creates a connection with students.
And so I'd say focusing on where things went wrong
or off track, but also where things went right
and then again, connecting that to
what students are gonna be doing in the future
and how it relates to other work.
-: I agree as well, sorry.
I agree as well.
I think maybe not putting in directly
what the students should put in their paper or assignment
'cause that doesn't really seem fair,
but even just putting guiding questions
that the student should put in like you ask a question
and it's you will have to think about it
and put it in their own words.
And I agree, always some good feedback is really appreciated
and it makes me feel yeah, like you connect more.
-: Mimah.
-: Yeah, so something that I had a professor do
was at the end of every PowerPoint,
they'd be like, this is a list of concepts
that we went over in like this PowerPoint,
and then the comments on like assignments
and stuff would be like, go back and look at this concept
and that was really helpful for me.
'Cause I was like, oh, okay.
So I'm like, I'm missing this section
for like my free response or whatever the question was.
And I could go back
and reread that section of the PowerPoint.
-: Great, we've got another question who questionnaire
Professor Phelps from the History Department,
who's noting that I'm wondering whether
you have different feelings or experiences
in grading and feedback for courses
that are outside your major
where perhaps you might feel a little bit less confident
as opposed to grading and response in the major?
-: Going off virtually I kinda talked about earlier,
I know I've taken some English courses.
So most of my courses are very STEM heavy.
So taking English courses or more writing intensive courses
makes me very anxious and I definitely find that
I'm not as confident in my work.
So kind of some things that I found
to help with that anxiousness
and to help with my overall learning in the course
was kind of, again what Julia saying,
where if we have a major paper due
or a major assignment kind of breaking up that assignment.
So as I go along, I can get that feedback
and I can understand what I'm doing well
and where I can improve.
And it just, again, I feel like I get a lot more
out of the assignment I put in more effort
and that helps me develop that confidence
that I truly don't think I would have
if I would just have to write a full paper, submit it
and then cross my fingers that I do a good job on it.
So that's definitely one example that I can think of.
-: So I know that there's a couple of other questions
so I don't want to invite all five of you
to come in and every question
because which would be totally fascinating
but will also mean we don't have as much time to get
to as many different questions.
So let me just ask is there anybody who'd like to toss
a different sort of idea out in response to that question
about experiences with grading outside of the major?
Alright, let me invite Professor Gill to unmute
and ask your question.
-: Hi, thank you so much for the great panel
and your insight.
I have a question for Julia
and anyone else who's had specs grading.
So I'm curious, the beauty of specs grading
is that you have your checklist
and you know what you need to do for your assignment.
In theory that means comments and feedback isn't needed.
How did that work for you?
Because I like specs grading
but I feel like I'm supposed to comment
and give individual feedback,
which then kind of negates the whole process of specs
'cause I'm still doing that work.
So I'd like your input on that.
-: Okay, so for me, when I had the specs grading
I still got comments and feedback
and I still found that helpful because I just just assumed
that it was really a pass or fail assignment.
It was kind of under the impression
that you still have to do well on the assignment
in order to get credit for that assignment,
for the specs grading.
And so that those comments and feedback
still helped me for the next assignments.
And I think maybe even a way to do it is to maybe say
I'll be a little bit more lenient on the first one
but I want you to take my feedback
and I have higher expectations for the next one.
So I think that that's kind of a way to make those comments
and still feel like they're being put to good use
with the specs grading.
And yeah, I don't know if that...
Did I answer your question at all?
-: Yeah, okay, thanks.
-: Any others of our panelists had any experience
with specs grading?
Well, here's another question also from Professor Phelps
about, "If you don't get a grade
"how do you know that you're learning success?"
So any thoughts on that?
-: Or hypothetically, if we got rid of grades as well
then maybe you don't have that experience
but you're kind of thinking about what might that look like.
-: I did see in the comments, someone wrote about
proficiency based learning.
So as I'm Vermont residents,
so my brother is currently actually in high school
where they kind of did this shift
to proficiency based learning
where he will get kind of more frequent assessments
of not just, you know,
they got rid of like letter grades and number grades
and they instead kind of assess the practical skills
and the general concepts
that students should be understanding throughout the course.
So it's more of a like formative assessment for them.
And you know I think as someone
who was used to going through high school
with the traditional grading scheme
that was very different for me
and I wasn't sure how that was gonna be properly executed,
but I do know obviously, it's not a university level
but he has really enjoyed that.
And I think it has really helped him understand
what aspects of his learning he can be better at.
But also it's a little less stressful for him.
I just wanted to point that out that I did,
I have some experience
with the proficiency-based learning,
so I just wanted to check that.
-: Any other questions or comments?
-: I do have one final pre-planned question,
so maybe we can go there
and then if we have a minute afterwards
we can come back to the audience as well for final thoughts.
Okay, if you have questions about feedback or a grade
what's the best way for you to connect with your instructor?
And sort of with that what has an instructor done
or could they do to ensure
that you feel comfortable approaching them
about a grade or feedback, Meg?
-: Yeah, I think it's pretty simple.
I've always really appreciated when professors
make it known, addressing the class that they are available
and welcome you to reach out to them.
It could go without saying,
and I think at a certain point in college,
if the professors know you
they think it does go without saying
but I think it creates a whole different environment
for students to operate in.
And then when it comes to seeking them out
when I have a question related to grading or feedback
I'm either gonna email them or go to their office
whichever feels more appropriate
given the nature of the question.
And I will say I don't think seeing a professor
after class in the classroom
when students are still going in and out
makes for a great opportunity for thoughtful conversation.
So I usually do prefer office hours being available
to speak to professors.
-: Great, thank you and Isabelle.
-: Yeah, so I think going to teachers and professors
about specific grades since middle school
and just to go up after class when students have left
or even to office hours now,
not to challenge them in any means
but we're even really arguing for a grade
but just to go over the questions that I didn't get right.
And to get feedback on some questions I didn't answer fully
to learn from my mistakes
and I think that this also improves future test taking
with that same professor.
It may just be you need to learn the style that the test
is implemented this assignment or the expectations.
And sometimes it's not actually about the content
that you know, or didn't know,
it's just about learning their style.
And so sometimes even just by explaining the process
of your test taking, how you approach the question,
sometimes you do get the point back, which is awesome.
Sometimes you don't.
And I think that as long as there's a nice communication
between the student professor, it really, it feels good.
And that's just about establishing those relationships
and making sure they're respectful
and you feel comfortable in that open environment.
-: That's great.
-: Communication is so important.
-: And I just want to say, thank you so much to our panelists
for sharing their perspectives.
It was helpful for me in thinking about
some kind of next steps
that I maybe pursuing my own teaching
and also I think will broaden the conversations
that we're having as staff and faculty.
-: May be we can invite those who are able to unmute
to simply unmute join me in a little round of applause
for our panel, thank you so much.
(audience applaud) -: Yes.
Now I'll say goodbye to our panelists
but ask that those of you who can stay for another half hour
to discuss what you've learned you do that.
So thank you all and goodbye
and best of luck with the rest of the semester.
-: Thank you. -: Thank you.