WEBVTT

1
00:01:41.176 --> 00:01:45.138
<v ->All right, why don't we get started since we have an hour</v>

2
00:01:45.138 --> 00:01:47.617
with our students and we wanna maximize it.

3
00:01:47.617 --> 00:01:48.552
So welcome everybody.

4
00:01:48.552 --> 00:01:50.775
We really are so glad that you're here.

5
00:01:50.775 --> 00:01:53.143
I'm Jen Garrett-Ostermiller, a staff member

6
00:01:53.143 --> 00:01:55.150
in The Center for Teaching &amp; Learning

7
00:01:55.150 --> 00:01:57.374
and genuinely excited to spend time with you all,

8
00:01:57.374 --> 00:02:00.089
and particularly our student panelists.

9
00:02:00.089 --> 00:02:02.704
I'd love for my co-organizer friend

10
00:02:02.704 --> 00:02:05.750
and sometimes co-conspirator to introduce herself.

11
00:02:05.750 --> 00:02:07.343
<v ->Hi, I'm Susanmarie Harrington</v>

12
00:02:07.343 --> 00:02:09.768
from the Writing in the Disciplines Program

13
00:02:09.768 --> 00:02:12.882
and we do a lot of programming around faculty,

14
00:02:12.882 --> 00:02:14.388
responding to students,

15
00:02:14.388 --> 00:02:16.550
and it is high time that we're collaborating

16
00:02:16.550 --> 00:02:19.983
on some programming that really features student voices

17
00:02:19.983 --> 00:02:22.213
and hear what it's all about.

18
00:02:23.896 --> 00:02:25.834
<v ->And to just center ourselves a little bit</v>

19
00:02:25.834 --> 00:02:27.808
'cause I'm sure we're all coming from meetings

20
00:02:27.808 --> 00:02:30.759
and classes and other things,

21
00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:32.192
in backward course design

22
00:02:32.192 --> 00:02:34.464
we focus first on learning objectives

23
00:02:34.464 --> 00:02:38.110
and then we say, okay, what does assessment look like?

24
00:02:38.110 --> 00:02:40.996
How do students and faculty know if individuals in the class

25
00:02:40.996 --> 00:02:44.351
and the class collectively are progressing towards mastery

26
00:02:44.351 --> 00:02:45.676
of those objectives.

27
00:02:45.676 --> 00:02:50.517
And of course tied closely to assessments and assignments

28
00:02:50.517 --> 00:02:52.756
are grading and feedback.

29
00:02:52.756 --> 00:02:54.835
How do faculty communicate with students about

30
00:02:54.835 --> 00:02:56.475
their progress in a class?

31
00:02:56.475 --> 00:02:58.798
What is effectively communicated?

32
00:02:58.798 --> 00:03:00.563
What is ineffectively communicated?

33
00:03:00.563 --> 00:03:03.136
What is inadvertently communicated?

34
00:03:03.136 --> 00:03:07.278
And while the CTL and WID have recently run workshops

35
00:03:07.278 --> 00:03:10.297
and book groups on re-imagining assessment and grading,

36
00:03:10.297 --> 00:03:12.341
alternative approaches to grading.

37
00:03:12.341 --> 00:03:14.956
We also believe it's important to bring student voices

38
00:03:14.956 --> 00:03:16.187
into the conversation.

39
00:03:16.187 --> 00:03:19.744
So we've invited five students, all juniors and seniors,

40
00:03:19.744 --> 00:03:22.266
to share their experiences with and perspectives

41
00:03:22.266 --> 00:03:24.387
on grading and feedback.

42
00:03:24.387 --> 00:03:25.671
As with any panel,

43
00:03:25.671 --> 00:03:29.445
we want to recognize a few things before we jump in.

44
00:03:29.445 --> 00:03:33.051
First, there is so much value in hearing from our students.

45
00:03:33.051 --> 00:03:34.456
And at the same time,

46
00:03:34.456 --> 00:03:37.256
there's also the danger of a single story.

47
00:03:37.256 --> 00:03:39.175
So Susanmarie and I have been clear

48
00:03:39.175 --> 00:03:40.778
that we have no expectations

49
00:03:40.778 --> 00:03:43.309
that these panelists can speak for all students.

50
00:03:43.309 --> 00:03:46.812
And that's important for you all, as you hear their stories.

51
00:03:46.812 --> 00:03:49.640
So to just think about their ideas as additional fodder

52
00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:52.746
for your growth and development and maybe it will prompt you

53
00:03:52.746 --> 00:03:55.657
to think about some other conversations you can have

54
00:03:55.657 --> 00:04:00.270
with students in your classes about grading and feedback,

55
00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:01.909
eating, lunchtime.

56
00:04:01.909 --> 00:04:05.007
Second, we've asked the panelists to talk with their friends

57
00:04:05.007 --> 00:04:06.397
in preparation for today.

58
00:04:06.397 --> 00:04:08.165
So some of the examples you hear today

59
00:04:08.165 --> 00:04:11.187
may be gleaned from a broader peer group.

60
00:04:11.187 --> 00:04:13.997
And then third, we're centering the majority

61
00:04:13.997 --> 00:04:15.664
of our time with the panelists

62
00:04:15.664 --> 00:04:18.474
on questions that they've had some time to think about.

63
00:04:18.474 --> 00:04:19.823
We're gonna try to spend about 45 minutes

64
00:04:19.823 --> 00:04:22.705
having them discuss questions we gave them in advance

65
00:04:22.705 --> 00:04:25.009
and then we'll work to reserve about 15 minutes

66
00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:27.068
for audience questions.

67
00:04:27.068 --> 00:04:28.207
At the end of an hour,

68
00:04:28.207 --> 00:04:30.734
we'll let our students get back to their busy lives

69
00:04:30.734 --> 00:04:33.201
and then we'll stay together for an additional 30 minutes

70
00:04:33.201 --> 00:04:34.983
to reflect on what we've heard

71
00:04:34.983 --> 00:04:37.834
and what we've learned from our student colleagues.

72
00:04:37.834 --> 00:04:40.075
I'm going to turn things over to Susanmarie

73
00:04:40.075 --> 00:04:41.745
to help introduce our panelists.

74
00:04:41.745 --> 00:04:44.661
<v ->Well, actually I'm gonna invite the panelists</v>

75
00:04:44.661 --> 00:04:49.015
to introduce themselves by simply telling us your name,

76
00:04:49.015 --> 00:04:53.430
your pronouns, where you are in your studies at UVM,

77
00:04:53.430 --> 00:04:56.457
what you're studying and just one word

78
00:04:56.457 --> 00:05:01.230
to describe your experience with grading and feedback

79
00:05:01.230 --> 00:05:04.333
with a short explanation of life.

80
00:05:08.067 --> 00:05:10.423
So we start with Julia.

81
00:05:11.531 --> 00:05:14.197
<v ->Yeah, so hi, I'm Julia Bernier.</v>

82
00:05:14.197 --> 00:05:18.498
I use she/her pronouns and I'm a senior at UVM,

83
00:05:18.498 --> 00:05:22.184
majoring in neuroscience and minoring in chemistry.

84
00:05:22.184 --> 00:05:26.022
And if I had to use one word to describe my experience

85
00:05:26.022 --> 00:05:29.946
with grading and feedback, I would say variable

86
00:05:29.946 --> 00:05:33.082
because I've definitely had some really good experiences

87
00:05:33.082 --> 00:05:36.239
and I've had some not so good experiences.

88
00:05:36.239 --> 00:05:39.766
So I guess it's just it ranges from class to class

89
00:05:39.766 --> 00:05:41.695
and I can get into it a little bit more later

90
00:05:41.695 --> 00:05:44.833
but I would use that word for sure.

91
00:05:46.630 --> 00:05:47.672
<v ->Thank you.</v>

92
00:05:47.672 --> 00:05:51.217
<v ->Hi everyone, my name is Isabelle Fisher.</v>

93
00:05:51.217 --> 00:05:54.814
I use she/her pronouns, I am a senior at UVM

94
00:05:54.814 --> 00:05:58.203
and I'm majoring in biomedical engineering.

95
00:05:58.203 --> 00:06:00.276
One word to describe my experience

96
00:06:00.276 --> 00:06:03.310
with feedback and grading is bittersweet.

97
00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:05.800
I'm sure all the students here

98
00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.310
or even people who've been great at other things

99
00:06:09.310 --> 00:06:11.690
can recognize that heart drop

100
00:06:11.690 --> 00:06:14.003
when you see your grade has been posted.

101
00:06:14.003 --> 00:06:19.003
And so I think with that, it can be really,

102
00:06:19.146 --> 00:06:22.176
it can be a good thing if you did really well

103
00:06:22.176 --> 00:06:24.236
but can also be really scary

104
00:06:24.236 --> 00:06:26.650
if you didn't think you did so well.

105
00:06:26.650 --> 00:06:29.377
So again, like Julia said, we can get into it a bit later

106
00:06:29.377 --> 00:06:32.443
but yes, I think bittersweet is a fitting word.

107
00:06:34.045 --> 00:06:36.520
<v ->Hi everyone, my name is Meg Scagnelli,</v>

108
00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:37.853
I use/she her pronouns.

109
00:06:37.853 --> 00:06:40.055
I am currently a senior majoring in business

110
00:06:40.055 --> 00:06:42.990
with a concentration in marketing and sales,

111
00:06:42.990 --> 00:06:44.460
entrepreneurship, and a minor in applied design.

112
00:06:44.460 --> 00:06:49.104
If I were to use one word I think ever evolving

113
00:06:49.104 --> 00:06:52.726
and of course I've had, we've all had such a long experience

114
00:06:52.726 --> 00:06:54.667
with both grading and feedback.

115
00:06:54.667 --> 00:06:56.776
I say grading used to have a tremendous impact

116
00:06:56.776 --> 00:06:59.191
on my learning and experience in the classroom

117
00:06:59.191 --> 00:07:00.721
but that's changed over time

118
00:07:00.721 --> 00:07:03.281
and it's become less emotionally defining

119
00:07:03.281 --> 00:07:05.587
as I've progressed through school.

120
00:07:05.587 --> 00:07:08.628
And I think my experience has involved in that,

121
00:07:08.628 --> 00:07:11.407
I really value feedback even more than grading

122
00:07:11.407 --> 00:07:12.993
at this point.

123
00:07:17.074 --> 00:07:19.400
<v ->Oh, hi, I'm Oumaima, she/her pronouns.</v>

124
00:07:19.400 --> 00:07:23.130
I'm a junior medical laboratory science major,

125
00:07:23.130 --> 00:07:25.363
and I would say stressful

126
00:07:25.363 --> 00:07:27.372
regardless of whether I'm doing well or not.

127
00:07:27.372 --> 00:07:29.327
I feel like there's a constant pressure

128
00:07:29.327 --> 00:07:31.863
to meet certain standards.

129
00:07:37.460 --> 00:07:40.099
<v ->Hi, my name is Megan, I use she/her pronouns.</v>

130
00:07:40.099 --> 00:07:41.733
I am a junior at UVM.

131
00:07:41.733 --> 00:07:44.774
I major in microbiology and I have two minors

132
00:07:44.774 --> 00:07:48.729
in biochemistry and molecular genetics.

133
00:07:48.729 --> 00:07:52.043
My word to describe grading and feedback

134
00:07:52.043 --> 00:07:55.284
is not really a word, kind of a short phrase,

135
00:07:55.284 --> 00:07:56.380
a work in progress.

136
00:07:56.380 --> 00:07:58.630
Very similar to what Meg was saying.

137
00:07:58.630 --> 00:08:01.248
Even as a junior at UVM, I'm still trying to

138
00:08:01.248 --> 00:08:04.300
better my relationship with grading and feedback.

139
00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:08.074
And I'm really trying to still shift my mindset away

140
00:08:08.074 --> 00:08:12.859
from having grades be the defining factor in my education.

141
00:08:12.859 --> 00:08:16.183
So definitely still a work in progress.

142
00:08:17.938 --> 00:08:20.481
<v ->Wow, maybe we've got a lot to think about there</v>

143
00:08:20.481 --> 00:08:23.916
just with that list of words and perspectives.

144
00:08:23.916 --> 00:08:27.693
So I'm more excited than ever now.

145
00:08:27.693 --> 00:08:30.371
So let's start by thinking about

146
00:08:30.371 --> 00:08:32.788
what some of these terms mean that are connected

147
00:08:32.788 --> 00:08:36.470
with like faculty response and assessment.

148
00:08:36.470 --> 00:08:38.340
And so let's start off with

149
00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:41.388
how do you distinguish between grading and feedback?

150
00:08:41.388 --> 00:08:44.484
Did those things feel different to you?

151
00:08:44.484 --> 00:08:46.543
Maybe we'll start with Isabelle.

152
00:08:48.665 --> 00:08:53.665
<v ->Hi (mic cracks) feedback feels very different for me</v>

153
00:08:54.195 --> 00:08:57.089
grading feel a bit impersonal.

154
00:08:57.089 --> 00:09:02.089
It can feel like sometimes my value is just a number.

155
00:09:02.407 --> 00:09:05.389
It can be indicative of how well I've done an exam

156
00:09:05.389 --> 00:09:08.100
or an assessment but other times sometimes

157
00:09:08.100 --> 00:09:09.815
that isn't the case.

158
00:09:09.815 --> 00:09:12.048
I'm also a study skills tutor at UVM

159
00:09:12.048 --> 00:09:15.306
and we learned about fixed mindsets versus growth mindsets.

160
00:09:15.306 --> 00:09:19.192
So if I'm kind of putting this in the box I would say,

161
00:09:19.192 --> 00:09:20.896
grading is a fixed mindset

162
00:09:20.896 --> 00:09:23.397
while feedback there's room for growth

163
00:09:23.397 --> 00:09:26.235
and there's room for personal change.

164
00:09:26.235 --> 00:09:29.592
So feedback is much more personal for me,

165
00:09:29.592 --> 00:09:33.135
and just by going this extra step on top of grading

166
00:09:33.135 --> 00:09:35.516
I can kind of see what I did well

167
00:09:35.516 --> 00:09:39.016
what can I improve on for the next time?

168
00:09:39.016 --> 00:09:43.058
So both have very different connotations for me,

169
00:09:43.058 --> 00:09:45.860
and I would say, I definitely prefer

170
00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:49.673
that extra stack with feedback along the grade.

171
00:09:51.568 --> 00:09:53.197
<v ->And Meg.</v>

172
00:09:57.414 --> 00:10:00.613
Meg, I think you had a comment on that one too.

173
00:10:02.224 --> 00:10:04.880
<v ->Yes, I'd echo all of that.</v>

174
00:10:04.880 --> 00:10:09.880
I think grading in my mind is (mic cracks)

175
00:10:10.790 --> 00:10:12.457
one number or letter

176
00:10:15.264 --> 00:10:17.979
to define a piece of work and that's the end result

177
00:10:17.979 --> 00:10:20.679
but also it feels like the cumulation of your learning.

178
00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.585
And I'd say that (indistinct) it feels more stagnant,

179
00:10:23.585 --> 00:10:26.371
feedback in my mind is something that sizes

180
00:10:26.371 --> 00:10:29.181
how learning is continuous like Isabelle said that

181
00:10:29.181 --> 00:10:31.660
it's really meant to progress your learning

182
00:10:31.660 --> 00:10:34.135
and in college feedback really is an opportunity

183
00:10:34.135 --> 00:10:37.838
for you to receive your professional expertise

184
00:10:37.838 --> 00:10:42.041
as it relates to your work, your growth in the classroom

185
00:10:42.041 --> 00:10:44.842
and what you're leaving with, because hopefully

186
00:10:44.842 --> 00:10:46.644
you're leaving with more than just a grade.

187
00:10:46.644 --> 00:10:48.041
And so like Isabelle said it,

188
00:10:48.041 --> 00:10:50.280
feedback does feel different in that way.

189
00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:51.909
It's much more personal and involved

190
00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:54.333
than a single number or letter.

191
00:10:55.644 --> 00:10:59.825
<v ->Thank you, I should say, as Jen explained at the beginning</v>

192
00:10:59.825 --> 00:11:03.138
we're gonna focus on our student panelists first

193
00:11:03.138 --> 00:11:05.102
and leave time for Q&amp;A

194
00:11:05.102 --> 00:11:07.471
in the last 15 minutes of our time together.

195
00:11:07.471 --> 00:11:10.169
But please feel free to use the chat to make comments

196
00:11:10.169 --> 00:11:12.745
or questions as conversation is going along

197
00:11:12.745 --> 00:11:15.766
and we can scoot back into the chat then

198
00:11:15.766 --> 00:11:17.840
to help direct our discussion a little bit later.

199
00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:19.878
So if anybody has thoughts or questions

200
00:11:19.878 --> 00:11:21.807
feel free to use the chat.

201
00:11:21.807 --> 00:11:23.329
All right.

202
00:11:23.329 --> 00:11:27.027
So let's turn our attention to some of the effects

203
00:11:27.027 --> 00:11:29.331
of academic grading systems.

204
00:11:29.331 --> 00:11:33.533
And can you think of an example of a time when

205
00:11:33.533 --> 00:11:37.651
grading interfered with your ability to challenge yourself

206
00:11:37.651 --> 00:11:42.651
or to pursue an academic curiosity, Megan?

207
00:11:45.034 --> 00:11:47.833
<v ->Yeah, so I was actually speaking with my roommates</v>

208
00:11:47.833 --> 00:11:49.518
kind of about these questions

209
00:11:49.518 --> 00:11:51.225
to kind of generate different experiences

210
00:11:51.225 --> 00:11:54.459
and it was interesting me 'cause me and another one,

211
00:11:54.459 --> 00:11:58.032
my roommate had a very similar example and experience

212
00:11:58.032 --> 00:12:01.974
with this where I went to register for one of my classes

213
00:12:01.974 --> 00:12:03.917
that I had to take for my major

214
00:12:03.917 --> 00:12:07.831
and I ended up taking the course with a professor

215
00:12:07.831 --> 00:12:11.010
who I heard was an easier grader.

216
00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:13.253
They had more lenient grading guidelines

217
00:12:13.253 --> 00:12:16.300
versus another professor who

218
00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:19.881
I think I would have gotten a better experience

219
00:12:19.881 --> 00:12:22.697
from the course by taking it with him,

220
00:12:22.697 --> 00:12:25.991
but just looking at their grading guidelines

221
00:12:25.991 --> 00:12:29.085
versus the professor I ended up taking the course with,

222
00:12:29.085 --> 00:12:33.358
I actually didn't really pursue that academic curiosity,

223
00:12:33.358 --> 00:12:35.739
and I didn't end up going with the professor

224
00:12:35.739 --> 00:12:37.352
that I would have preferred

225
00:12:37.352 --> 00:12:40.770
because I was so afraid of the differences in grading

226
00:12:40.770 --> 00:12:43.155
and how I was gonna perform

227
00:12:43.155 --> 00:12:45.867
under those different expectations.

228
00:12:45.867 --> 00:12:47.786
So that was definitely an example

229
00:12:47.786 --> 00:12:49.407
that really stood out to me

230
00:12:49.407 --> 00:12:52.163
when reading these questions through.

231
00:12:53.852 --> 00:12:54.963
<v ->And Mimah.</v>

232
00:12:55.822 --> 00:12:58.700
<v ->Yeah, so, personally,</v>

233
00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.522
personally, I feel like there's a focus

234
00:13:00.522 --> 00:13:03.767
on like you need to get a certain grade,

235
00:13:03.767 --> 00:13:06.197
especially if you're pursuing things like

236
00:13:06.197 --> 00:13:07.993
pre-med, for example,

237
00:13:07.993 --> 00:13:12.493
where you there's like certain like pressures that you feel.

238
00:13:12.493 --> 00:13:17.493
So a lot of times classes will like classes that people take

239
00:13:18.188 --> 00:13:20.510
will end up turning into I need this grade

240
00:13:20.510 --> 00:13:22.456
versus I want to learn the material.

241
00:13:22.456 --> 00:13:25.978
I feel like I know several STEM students who are like,

242
00:13:25.978 --> 00:13:29.082
"Oh I can memorize everything for the exam, get 100

243
00:13:29.082 --> 00:13:33.460
"and then forget everything as soon as I take the exam."

244
00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:35.108
So in that sense, like,

245
00:13:35.108 --> 00:13:38.560
did you take anything away from the class

246
00:13:38.560 --> 00:13:40.573
even though you got like 100.

247
00:13:45.712 --> 00:13:49.496
<v ->So that leads a little bit into a next question</v>

248
00:13:49.496 --> 00:13:54.009
which is how does grading affect motivation

249
00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:57.493
or your motivation, Julia?

250
00:13:58.613 --> 00:14:02.192
<v ->Yeah, so I would say it's changed</v>

251
00:14:02.192 --> 00:14:07.101
over the course of my academic career

252
00:14:07.101 --> 00:14:09.697
because at the beginning of college

253
00:14:09.697 --> 00:14:11.944
I was really in mostly science classes

254
00:14:11.944 --> 00:14:14.418
and the grade for those classes

255
00:14:14.418 --> 00:14:16.592
was definitely majorly determined by

256
00:14:16.592 --> 00:14:18.720
how well you did on your exams

257
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:23.720
and not really many other assignments.

258
00:14:24.348 --> 00:14:26.551
And so there really wasn't that opportunity

259
00:14:26.551 --> 00:14:29.587
for a lot of feedback because you just saw a number

260
00:14:29.587 --> 00:14:31.418
and a lot of times the professors

261
00:14:31.418 --> 00:14:32.871
weren't even the ones grading,

262
00:14:32.871 --> 00:14:35.227
and especially if it was like a multiple choice question

263
00:14:35.227 --> 00:14:37.084
if you didn't understand it

264
00:14:37.084 --> 00:14:40.333
you had to go approach the professor, hoping they had time.

265
00:14:40.333 --> 00:14:43.175
And so it definitely motivated me

266
00:14:43.175 --> 00:14:45.760
to study right before the exam,

267
00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:49.170
but I really do think that I still would have

268
00:14:49.170 --> 00:14:52.877
tried to learn the anyway knowing how important it was

269
00:14:52.877 --> 00:14:56.201
to have that information to go on.

270
00:14:56.201 --> 00:14:57.729
And I think in some cases

271
00:14:57.729 --> 00:15:00.612
it could actually be very ad motivating

272
00:15:00.612 --> 00:15:03.789
because I know some of my friends

273
00:15:03.789 --> 00:15:06.776
if we were in a hard class, for example,

274
00:15:06.776 --> 00:15:08.923
organic chemistry or something like that,

275
00:15:08.923 --> 00:15:11.855
and they got a really bad grade on the first exam,

276
00:15:11.855 --> 00:15:15.208
then in the second thing I almost gave up

277
00:15:15.208 --> 00:15:17.441
or especially if it was on the second exam too,

278
00:15:17.441 --> 00:15:19.180
it was like what's the point

279
00:15:19.180 --> 00:15:20.560
of even learning this material anymore

280
00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:23.259
if I'm not gonna get a good grade

281
00:15:23.259 --> 00:15:25.143
I might as well just drop the class

282
00:15:25.143 --> 00:15:26.257
and it kind of took it.

283
00:15:26.257 --> 00:15:29.144
There was so much emphasis on doing well on the exams

284
00:15:29.144 --> 00:15:33.238
and memorizing specifically what they knew beyond the exams

285
00:15:33.238 --> 00:15:36.755
as opposed to really learning the material holistically,

286
00:15:36.755 --> 00:15:41.755
and it's kind of a sense where once you take the exam

287
00:15:41.817 --> 00:15:44.373
especially if you don't have a cumulative final

288
00:15:44.373 --> 00:15:46.684
it's like you learn the material for the exam

289
00:15:46.684 --> 00:15:49.221
and then you forget it because it's not important anymore.

290
00:15:49.221 --> 00:15:52.022
Whereas if you don't have that grade

291
00:15:52.022 --> 00:15:54.993
and you're actually just trying to learn it throughout.

292
00:15:54.993 --> 00:15:58.980
I think that it definitely could be a much better experience

293
00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:03.368
and you could retain that material for much longer.

294
00:16:03.368 --> 00:16:07.050
So that's my experience with grading specifically

295
00:16:07.050 --> 00:16:08.023
and motivation.

296
00:16:09.393 --> 00:16:10.243
<v ->Meg.</v>

297
00:16:12.894 --> 00:16:13.883
Meg.

298
00:16:15.227 --> 00:16:18.717
<v ->Yeah, I can relate to a lot of those experiences</v>

299
00:16:18.717 --> 00:16:20.891
as my classmates can as well.

300
00:16:20.891 --> 00:16:22.540
I think grading and feedback

301
00:16:22.540 --> 00:16:25.024
can both have a big effect on motivation

302
00:16:25.024 --> 00:16:27.862
with grading if it's not subject to change

303
00:16:27.862 --> 00:16:30.180
or receiving a good grade feels great

304
00:16:30.180 --> 00:16:32.057
and it can change the whole lens you're using

305
00:16:32.057 --> 00:16:33.767
to be your time in the classroom

306
00:16:33.767 --> 00:16:35.537
and it can fuel your motivation

307
00:16:35.537 --> 00:16:36.977
because the next assignment

308
00:16:36.977 --> 00:16:39.429
might feel like another opportunity to shine.

309
00:16:39.429 --> 00:16:43.089
And then with a poor grade it can be motivating

310
00:16:43.089 --> 00:16:44.737
to get your act together

311
00:16:44.737 --> 00:16:46.470
and to address whatever learning gap

312
00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:47.880
you might be experiencing.

313
00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:50.225
But it can also feel very discouraging

314
00:16:50.225 --> 00:16:52.383
if you continue to receive grades

315
00:16:52.383 --> 00:16:55.503
that are less than what you thought you'd receive or deserve

316
00:16:55.503 --> 00:16:58.125
it can definitely dull motivation.

317
00:16:58.125 --> 00:17:01.209
And when it comes to feedback again

318
00:17:01.209 --> 00:17:03.510
it can have positive and negative effects on motivation

319
00:17:03.510 --> 00:17:05.107
but I think it's the fact that feedback

320
00:17:05.107 --> 00:17:06.303
feels more constructive

321
00:17:06.303 --> 00:17:09.286
and it's usually pushing you in the direction to grow

322
00:17:09.286 --> 00:17:11.404
and learn more in the course,

323
00:17:11.404 --> 00:17:15.026
it does feel like your professor is invested in you

324
00:17:15.026 --> 00:17:17.282
when you're receiving thorough and thoughtful feedback,

325
00:17:17.282 --> 00:17:20.523
whether good and bad and I think that itself is motivating.

326
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.344
<v ->And I will just quickly add to that too.</v>

327
00:17:25.344 --> 00:17:27.714
I think that I've had a lot of friends

328
00:17:27.714 --> 00:17:30.631
who I really know that they do know the material,

329
00:17:30.631 --> 00:17:32.851
they're just not good test takers

330
00:17:32.851 --> 00:17:35.125
and for them it's really hard because it really,

331
00:17:35.125 --> 00:17:37.061
it's not always reflective

332
00:17:37.061 --> 00:17:39.753
of how well you know the material,

333
00:17:40.732 --> 00:17:42.438
you might not be very good

334
00:17:42.438 --> 00:17:44.518
at multiple choice questions per se

335
00:17:44.518 --> 00:17:47.138
and being able to look through the trick questions

336
00:17:47.138 --> 00:17:48.480
or something like that.

337
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.663
And so I think that it's not always representative

338
00:17:50.663 --> 00:17:52.180
of the student

339
00:17:53.729 --> 00:17:55.335
<v ->And Megan</v>

340
00:17:55.335 --> 00:17:58.748
<v ->I really liked what Meg said about</v>

341
00:17:58.748 --> 00:18:01.188
how feedback is more constructive

342
00:18:01.188 --> 00:18:04.921
because I kinda see grading and feedback

343
00:18:04.921 --> 00:18:08.012
affecting my motivation in kind of different ways.

344
00:18:08.012 --> 00:18:12.659
Whereas I feel my motivation for getting a desired grade

345
00:18:12.659 --> 00:18:17.659
is rather fixed and kind of negative in a way where,

346
00:18:18.401 --> 00:18:23.401
I try to study for an exam or I work on a project

347
00:18:23.785 --> 00:18:27.054
and it's more so that my motivation is like,

348
00:18:27.054 --> 00:18:29.751
okay you need to get a certain grade.

349
00:18:29.751 --> 00:18:30.986
It's all about this grade

350
00:18:30.986 --> 00:18:35.986
versus if I received feedback on a paper

351
00:18:36.075 --> 00:18:37.526
or an assignment that I did

352
00:18:37.526 --> 00:18:41.938
it would kind of push me to more positive motivation.

353
00:18:41.938 --> 00:18:45.715
Okay, my professor really looked at my work

354
00:18:45.715 --> 00:18:50.550
and gave me these guidelines to maybe better my work.

355
00:18:50.550 --> 00:18:54.426
So I feel like that's more of a positive source

356
00:18:54.426 --> 00:18:57.730
of motivation for me versus yeah,

357
00:18:57.730 --> 00:19:00.259
with grading, I just can't help us associate it

358
00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:05.259
with more of a negative source of motivation.

359
00:19:07.058 --> 00:19:09.298
<v ->So Meg, I can see you nodding a bit there</v>

360
00:19:09.298 --> 00:19:11.876
as Megan was talking and I want to invite you

361
00:19:11.876 --> 00:19:15.490
to tell us about an assignment or class

362
00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:17.656
where learning really progressed.

363
00:19:17.656 --> 00:19:20.357
What was the role of grading or feedback

364
00:19:20.357 --> 00:19:22.533
in that kind of example?

365
00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.489
<v ->Yeah, when I think of learning progression</v>

366
00:19:27.489 --> 00:19:30.251
again I tend to think of feedback first before grading.

367
00:19:30.251 --> 00:19:34.859
And when feedback has been provided that addresses your work

368
00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:36.332
and where you are in your learning,

369
00:19:36.332 --> 00:19:39.472
but also connects to future assignments

370
00:19:39.472 --> 00:19:41.703
and how your work is gonna relate to them

371
00:19:41.703 --> 00:19:43.633
and where you're going in the course

372
00:19:43.633 --> 00:19:46.366
I found that particularly helpful and impactful.

373
00:19:46.366 --> 00:19:49.811
I'm thinking of a few papers and projects

374
00:19:49.811 --> 00:19:54.678
that I've had mostly in business courses and in CDA courses.

375
00:19:54.678 --> 00:19:56.792
So of course that feedback isn't always applicable

376
00:19:56.792 --> 00:20:00.564
but in general, I think feedback that addresses your work

377
00:20:00.564 --> 00:20:02.340
in a really holistic way

378
00:20:02.340 --> 00:20:03.637
that's where my learning has progressed.

379
00:20:03.637 --> 00:20:06.013
That's where the dots have been connected.

380
00:20:08.703 --> 00:20:10.497
<v ->I may wanna toss it back to Megan.</v>

381
00:20:10.497 --> 00:20:12.005
Can you talk a little bit about

382
00:20:12.005 --> 00:20:16.173
how both grading and feedback affect your learning?

383
00:20:17.254 --> 00:20:22.239
<v ->Yeah, I definitely started out my time at EVM</v>

384
00:20:22.239 --> 00:20:24.650
centering my learning around grading

385
00:20:24.650 --> 00:20:28.700
and grades and everything I did in the class

386
00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:32.437
was to get a certain grade, was to work towards the grade

387
00:20:32.437 --> 00:20:34.385
instead of working towards, okay

388
00:20:34.385 --> 00:20:36.142
what am I getting out of this course?

389
00:20:36.142 --> 00:20:38.344
What am I getting out of this assignment?

390
00:20:38.344 --> 00:20:43.344
What does this tell me I need to improve on?

391
00:20:43.694 --> 00:20:46.508
But I definitely am trying to get

392
00:20:46.508 --> 00:20:49.480
with letting feedback guide my learning.

393
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.156
Definitely recently, I've been more interested

394
00:20:53.156 --> 00:20:55.674
in receiving feedback, whether that be

395
00:20:55.674 --> 00:20:59.293
reaching out to a professor on a paper

396
00:20:59.293 --> 00:21:03.640
when I'm preparing for a project, if I'm asking for feedback

397
00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:05.870
even if I'm prepping for an exam

398
00:21:05.870 --> 00:21:08.545
I do really like to reach out to professors

399
00:21:08.545 --> 00:21:11.233
and go over some questions that I might have

400
00:21:11.233 --> 00:21:13.254
and really work towards that feedback

401
00:21:13.254 --> 00:21:15.789
because kind of linking it to the question

402
00:21:15.789 --> 00:21:17.670
that we talked about earlier

403
00:21:17.670 --> 00:21:21.389
where the feedback positively motivates me

404
00:21:21.389 --> 00:21:26.389
to really gain a more holistic understanding of concepts

405
00:21:27.446 --> 00:21:32.025
instead of kind of pigeonholing my learning into,

406
00:21:32.025 --> 00:21:36.773
okay how can I get great X or grade Y?

407
00:21:36.773 --> 00:21:41.633
So that's kind of my relationship with grading and learning

408
00:21:41.633 --> 00:21:43.874
versus my feedback and learning.

409
00:21:43.874 --> 00:21:46.080
And again, I'm still working on it,

410
00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:48.456
it depends on the class too

411
00:21:48.456 --> 00:21:52.287
but I really am trying to make both of those aspects

412
00:21:52.287 --> 00:21:57.287
positive motivators and both have useful

413
00:21:57.590 --> 00:22:00.883
and beneficial effects on my learning as well.

414
00:22:02.863 --> 00:22:05.120
<v ->I'd love to ask a follow-up question</v>

415
00:22:05.120 --> 00:22:06.311
for any of the panelists.

416
00:22:06.311 --> 00:22:10.393
I'm curious like when you think about feedback,

417
00:22:11.816 --> 00:22:14.709
like when do you typically get the most useful feedback

418
00:22:14.709 --> 00:22:17.308
'cause that after you've submitted something?

419
00:22:17.308 --> 00:22:18.973
Like Megan as you were talking you were saying like,

420
00:22:18.973 --> 00:22:21.011
maybe even like preparing for an assignment

421
00:22:21.011 --> 00:22:23.588
I get some feedback but it sounds like that's something

422
00:22:23.588 --> 00:22:25.163
that you're often initiating

423
00:22:25.163 --> 00:22:28.278
versus like the whole class gets it

424
00:22:28.278 --> 00:22:30.315
at like sort of midway point or something.

425
00:22:30.315 --> 00:22:32.479
So I'm just curious for other, like for anyone,

426
00:22:32.479 --> 00:22:36.225
when do you find feedback to be most useful

427
00:22:36.225 --> 00:22:38.958
and how are you getting it?

428
00:22:38.958 --> 00:22:40.417
Is it like universally given?

429
00:22:40.417 --> 00:22:42.528
Are you seeking it?

430
00:22:42.528 --> 00:22:45.117
<v ->I guess, responding to that,</v>

431
00:22:45.117 --> 00:22:49.761
I definitely I'm the one initiating the feedback

432
00:22:49.761 --> 00:22:53.496
because again like that is one central way of how I learn

433
00:22:53.496 --> 00:22:55.390
and how I'm able to identify

434
00:22:55.390 --> 00:22:57.629
what my strengths and weaknesses are

435
00:22:57.629 --> 00:23:01.073
with what I'm learning in the classroom

436
00:23:01.073 --> 00:23:04.244
versus I know a lot of my friends and my peers

437
00:23:04.244 --> 00:23:09.231
don't take that initiative and then they don't really get

438
00:23:09.231 --> 00:23:12.584
that feedback aspect of their learning until maybe

439
00:23:12.584 --> 00:23:15.272
after the assessment is already done

440
00:23:15.272 --> 00:23:19.610
and in a sense it might be too late for the grading.

441
00:23:19.610 --> 00:23:22.347
So I definitely would say that it's something

442
00:23:22.347 --> 00:23:27.347
that I initiate for all of my assignments that I have.

443
00:23:32.176 --> 00:23:35.263
<v ->Does anyone else want to chime in on that?</v>

444
00:23:38.582 --> 00:23:43.582
<v ->For me, I've never really had any feedback.</v>

445
00:23:43.796 --> 00:23:45.950
If I ever get feedback from the professor

446
00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:50.296
that's professor initiated it's once I've gotten the grade

447
00:23:50.296 --> 00:23:52.905
and sometimes if there's another assignment similar,

448
00:23:52.905 --> 00:23:53.899
that's great.

449
00:23:53.899 --> 00:23:56.858
But other times I appreciate the feedback but sometimes

450
00:23:56.858 --> 00:23:59.565
I guess I wish I had some of that feedback before,

451
00:23:59.565 --> 00:24:02.138
because again once the grade is in,

452
00:24:02.138 --> 00:24:05.539
there's never really a chance to change it or improve it.

453
00:24:05.539 --> 00:24:08.160
And I think that that would be a great thing to implement

454
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.898
is to give the feedback and then allow the student

455
00:24:10.898 --> 00:24:14.022
to take that feedback and work with it.

456
00:24:14.022 --> 00:24:16.901
So it's not kind of a one and done thing

457
00:24:16.901 --> 00:24:20.842
but I definitely think it's possible to get feedback

458
00:24:20.842 --> 00:24:23.410
before you get a grade

459
00:24:23.410 --> 00:24:28.410
but I've never really seen it unless it's student initiated.

460
00:24:29.713 --> 00:24:32.099
<v ->And I think the way we've structured this</v>

461
00:24:32.099 --> 00:24:33.557
I think we're all probably thinking

462
00:24:33.557 --> 00:24:35.686
a little bit about feedback as like,

463
00:24:35.686 --> 00:24:39.684
comments directly to me as a student on something I've done.

464
00:24:39.684 --> 00:24:43.211
I think that faculty often do

465
00:24:43.211 --> 00:24:46.567
some more kind of collective feedback processes,

466
00:24:46.567 --> 00:24:49.210
something about like if you've ever had to use

467
00:24:49.210 --> 00:24:52.261
iClickers in the class that is a form of feedback, right?

468
00:24:52.261 --> 00:24:56.455
Because your being assessed on your learning

469
00:24:56.455 --> 00:25:00.495
like some of the questions presented, you answer

470
00:25:00.495 --> 00:25:03.098
and then you get some feedback in the moment saying

471
00:25:03.098 --> 00:25:08.010
like was your learning was your knowledge clear?

472
00:25:08.010 --> 00:25:09.903
And you know, there's other examples of that.

473
00:25:09.903 --> 00:25:12.510
Sometimes faculty ask students to write down like,

474
00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:15.539
what was the most confusing point of today's class?

475
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:18.800
And then maybe at the next class period

476
00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:22.033
they're giving feedback to like the themes that they saw.

477
00:25:22.033 --> 00:25:24.667
I'm curious if you all have experienced

478
00:25:24.667 --> 00:25:28.413
that kind of more informal collective feedback

479
00:25:28.413 --> 00:25:31.220
and what your perspectives on that

480
00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.782
are compared to kind of this like more personal feedback

481
00:25:33.782 --> 00:25:36.035
that I think we're often thinking about

482
00:25:36.035 --> 00:25:38.003
in the context of grading.

483
00:25:41.044 --> 00:25:43.411
<v ->I actually love, I didn't even think about that</v>

484
00:25:43.411 --> 00:25:44.861
but I love that type of feedback.

485
00:25:44.861 --> 00:25:47.642
Whenever I had iClicker questions in classes

486
00:25:47.642 --> 00:25:49.646
and the professors actually took the time

487
00:25:49.646 --> 00:25:51.974
after the clicker question to go over it.

488
00:25:51.974 --> 00:25:55.625
I found that that was really helpful for my learning

489
00:25:55.625 --> 00:25:58.335
and it definitely, I think it's a way

490
00:25:58.335 --> 00:26:00.101
for the professor to see how well

491
00:26:00.101 --> 00:26:01.734
the class is understanding the material

492
00:26:01.734 --> 00:26:03.275
and it's a way for them to check in

493
00:26:03.275 --> 00:26:04.858
if they can tell that the class

494
00:26:04.858 --> 00:26:06.667
is understanding the material

495
00:26:06.667 --> 00:26:10.552
to kind of fix that before you move on

496
00:26:10.552 --> 00:26:13.319
and it just keeps getting more and more confusing.

497
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:16.783
So I definitely have had a positive experience

498
00:26:16.783 --> 00:26:21.783
with iClickers when they're actually discussed after.

499
00:26:22.842 --> 00:26:26.393
And then same with if a professor asks about

500
00:26:26.393 --> 00:26:29.169
was something confusing during today's lecture,

501
00:26:29.169 --> 00:26:31.624
and then they address it the next class.

502
00:26:31.624 --> 00:26:35.791
And I've even had times where we will have

503
00:26:35.791 --> 00:26:38.562
iClicker questions and then the next class,

504
00:26:38.562 --> 00:26:40.244
the professor will realize

505
00:26:40.244 --> 00:26:42.271
that there were gaps in knowledge.

506
00:26:42.271 --> 00:26:44.322
So they take beginning of the class to go over that

507
00:26:44.322 --> 00:26:45.633
before moving on.

508
00:26:45.633 --> 00:26:47.007
I think that that feedback is really helpful

509
00:26:47.007 --> 00:26:49.315
and it's more helpful than feedback

510
00:26:49.315 --> 00:26:52.680
after you've received a grade for something

511
00:26:56.299 --> 00:26:59.786
<v ->Other thoughts on this sort of individual</v>

512
00:26:59.786 --> 00:27:02.733
versus collective feedback processes.

513
00:27:03.932 --> 00:27:06.292
<v ->I think like something like the iClicker</v>

514
00:27:06.292 --> 00:27:09.106
or even like Exit Slips at the end of class

515
00:27:09.106 --> 00:27:11.499
is also feedback for the professor.

516
00:27:11.499 --> 00:27:14.941
Like Julia was saying like she and the professors

517
00:27:14.941 --> 00:27:17.115
kind of know where there are gaps of knowledge,

518
00:27:17.115 --> 00:27:19.122
what they could improve on for the next class,

519
00:27:19.122 --> 00:27:21.460
or maybe even like next year's class.

520
00:27:21.460 --> 00:27:23.251
But I think those are great ways

521
00:27:23.251 --> 00:27:25.323
to provide like real time feedback

522
00:27:25.323 --> 00:27:28.333
with not as high as steak.

523
00:27:29.323 --> 00:27:32.620
<v ->So it becomes, it's a sort of two-way feedback process</v>

524
00:27:32.620 --> 00:27:36.957
not just feedback for the student, yep great.

525
00:27:36.957 --> 00:27:39.470
We can return to any of these themes

526
00:27:39.470 --> 00:27:42.759
as sort of more ideas are sparked, but I'm gonna move on

527
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:44.450
to our next kind of pre-planned question

528
00:27:44.450 --> 00:27:47.239
and then we can come back if you have other ideas.

529
00:27:47.239 --> 00:27:50.953
So as I think we all know UVM has consistent goals

530
00:27:50.953 --> 00:27:55.372
for inclusivity as an institution,

531
00:27:55.372 --> 00:27:58.611
sometimes grading though it can feel exclusive.

532
00:27:58.611 --> 00:28:02.323
Can you talk about a time or an example when grading

533
00:28:02.323 --> 00:28:05.159
was either inclusive or exclusive

534
00:28:05.159 --> 00:28:07.204
and maybe what instructors could do

535
00:28:07.204 --> 00:28:10.272
to make assessment more inclusive?

536
00:28:10.272 --> 00:28:12.053
Isabelle.

537
00:28:13.657 --> 00:28:17.850
<v ->Yeah, I remember when classes were still in person,</v>

538
00:28:17.850 --> 00:28:20.344
everyone would filter into the classroom

539
00:28:20.344 --> 00:28:22.469
and this is after an exam.

540
00:28:22.469 --> 00:28:24.667
So you would kind of see the exam breakdown

541
00:28:24.667 --> 00:28:28.056
of who got like A's who got B's, C's,

542
00:28:28.056 --> 00:28:31.081
and it was very daunting to see all those numbers

543
00:28:31.081 --> 00:28:35.144
and it didn't really, it felt kind of more of an attack

544
00:28:35.144 --> 00:28:39.305
if you were on those lower grade scales,

545
00:28:39.305 --> 00:28:43.771
and sometimes the professor would address these grades

546
00:28:43.771 --> 00:28:46.017
in a couple of minutes and just say,

547
00:28:46.017 --> 00:28:47.580
okay this is a breakdown.

548
00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:49.648
This is when you will be getting your grades come up

549
00:28:49.648 --> 00:28:51.608
and get your exam and that was that.

550
00:28:51.608 --> 00:28:55.232
And I think that can be pretty exclusive.

551
00:28:55.232 --> 00:28:57.760
I mean, sometimes it would be followed up by

552
00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:00.333
if you have any problems with your exam

553
00:29:00.333 --> 00:29:03.648
or comments come talk to me within a week

554
00:29:03.648 --> 00:29:06.363
and after that it's me closed.

555
00:29:06.363 --> 00:29:10.846
And in that sense, I did find it was pretty exclusive

556
00:29:10.846 --> 00:29:13.938
because it did put a lot of pressure on the students

557
00:29:13.938 --> 00:29:18.938
then to come in (mic cracks) gonna be really scary

558
00:29:19.146 --> 00:29:22.957
going up to a professor during their office hours one-on-one

559
00:29:22.957 --> 00:29:26.715
and kind of arguing for their grade or even just providing

560
00:29:26.715 --> 00:29:28.370
or seeking some feedback.

561
00:29:28.370 --> 00:29:31.441
So something that a process

562
00:29:31.441 --> 00:29:33.762
to make maybe make this more inclusive

563
00:29:33.762 --> 00:29:36.369
was to kind of discuss it as a class

564
00:29:36.369 --> 00:29:39.895
have some notes prepared for the students and be like,

565
00:29:39.895 --> 00:29:44.328
okay, talk about why the grades were broken down by this.

566
00:29:44.328 --> 00:29:47.954
Why do you think you did well?

567
00:29:47.954 --> 00:29:51.538
Or if you didn't do so well, why do you think that is?

568
00:29:51.538 --> 00:29:56.122
And it could be anonymous, it could just be by show of hands

569
00:29:56.122 --> 00:30:00.960
and really discuss what could be better for next exam.

570
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:05.170
And so maybe just real time feedback

571
00:30:05.170 --> 00:30:07.060
so other students can hear as well.

572
00:30:07.060 --> 00:30:11.130
So it's not just one-on-one and I think this just goes

573
00:30:11.130 --> 00:30:14.153
to making the environment more comfortable for everyone

574
00:30:14.153 --> 00:30:17.313
and making it very open and transparent.

575
00:30:19.690 --> 00:30:24.620
<v ->And in the example you gave it was sort of that display</v>

576
00:30:24.620 --> 00:30:26.103
of the grading breakdown.

577
00:30:26.103 --> 00:30:27.391
And then just sort of,

578
00:30:27.391 --> 00:30:30.927
it sounds like maybe that's not objectionable to you

579
00:30:30.927 --> 00:30:32.479
but more it's the like,

580
00:30:32.479 --> 00:30:35.361
what a student's supposed to do with that information

581
00:30:35.361 --> 00:30:40.361
and that putting even just a conversation sort of in place

582
00:30:43.162 --> 00:30:46.736
about if you did well, or if you did poorly sort of,

583
00:30:46.736 --> 00:30:50.040
what can I as the instructor do to support your learning

584
00:30:50.040 --> 00:30:53.442
changes the feeling of seeing that sort of breakdown

585
00:30:53.442 --> 00:30:55.560
from maybe being just sort of a competition

586
00:30:55.560 --> 00:30:58.135
or a ranking to being a moment of learning.

587
00:30:58.135 --> 00:31:01.263
Thanks for Isabelle, that's helpful to think about.

588
00:31:02.434 --> 00:31:05.254
Mimah, I think you have something to add to this question.

589
00:31:05.254 --> 00:31:07.400
I'd love to hear your thoughts

590
00:31:08.805 --> 00:31:10.783
<v ->But yeah so,</v>

591
00:31:11.831 --> 00:31:14.144
as a student went to several like

592
00:31:14.144 --> 00:31:17.480
marginalized identities in a STEM major

593
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:22.480
it's often already difficult navigating a lot of spaces

594
00:31:24.258 --> 00:31:29.254
especially with STEM kind of being very like

595
00:31:29.254 --> 00:31:32.220
intensive classes a lot of the times.

596
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:35.470
So you already have to like study and be on top of stuff.

597
00:31:35.470 --> 00:31:37.571
Plus navigating often being like BIPOC student

598
00:31:37.571 --> 00:31:41.301
in a majority white space can be stressful.

599
00:31:41.301 --> 00:31:43.429
So coming into classes

600
00:31:43.429 --> 00:31:48.132
and hearing professors say things like, well

601
00:31:48.132 --> 00:31:50.378
this number of people fail every year

602
00:31:50.378 --> 00:31:53.465
like right off the bat at the beginning of the semester

603
00:31:53.465 --> 00:31:55.463
it already kind of forces the students

604
00:31:55.463 --> 00:31:58.184
to be kind of like on a defensive like,

605
00:31:58.184 --> 00:32:00.630
oh, like it's my responsibility.

606
00:32:00.630 --> 00:32:03.624
I need to like put in this amount of time

607
00:32:03.624 --> 00:32:08.624
and just make sure that like, I'm really on top of stuff

608
00:32:08.770 --> 00:32:12.930
versus it's almost kind of scary reaching out to professors

609
00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:15.672
hearing something like that 'cause it's like,

610
00:32:15.672 --> 00:32:20.206
oh you're not being a good enough student to pass.

611
00:32:20.206 --> 00:32:23.690
So you have that additional pressure of like,

612
00:32:23.690 --> 00:32:25.120
well it's your responsibility

613
00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:27.782
versus you're welcome to reach out for help

614
00:32:27.782 --> 00:32:32.212
and I know several students who've actually switched

615
00:32:32.212 --> 00:32:37.212
out of my college and several other STEM majors

616
00:32:37.484 --> 00:32:38.887
because were like

617
00:32:38.887 --> 00:32:41.755
I just can't navigate these spaces anymore.

618
00:32:41.755 --> 00:32:45.254
And it's a lot of pressure to perform

619
00:32:45.254 --> 00:32:47.396
up to certain standards.

620
00:32:47.396 --> 00:32:51.282
So I'd rather do something else with my time

621
00:32:51.282 --> 00:32:53.681
which is completely fair.

622
00:32:53.681 --> 00:32:57.162
But at the same time, it shouldn't be on the student

623
00:32:57.162 --> 00:33:00.293
to fix all of that.

624
00:33:01.952 --> 00:33:04.965
<v ->Yeah, I think in both of these examples</v>

625
00:33:04.965 --> 00:33:07.160
that Mimah you just share it

626
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.122
and then the example that Isabelle shared it feels like,

627
00:33:10.122 --> 00:33:13.152
that sort of classic intent versus impact

628
00:33:13.152 --> 00:33:17.263
that there might've been a intent of the instructor

629
00:33:17.263 --> 00:33:21.862
to try to be transparent about this as a class

630
00:33:21.862 --> 00:33:25.490
that students find challenging and you really got to study.

631
00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:28.194
But the impact of that, the way that messaging

632
00:33:28.194 --> 00:33:31.285
has come through is putting additional burden on students

633
00:33:31.285 --> 00:33:34.750
who may already be feeling stress and pressure

634
00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:39.689
and related to identity related to sort of pass preparation

635
00:33:39.689 --> 00:33:44.689
and then if that shuts down like a place of communication

636
00:33:46.379 --> 00:33:49.723
then that is probably like,

637
00:33:49.723 --> 00:33:52.010
obviously that's helping the student

638
00:33:52.010 --> 00:33:55.526
and probably not really what the instructor intended

639
00:33:55.526 --> 00:33:57.640
but it doesn't matter what they intended

640
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:00.695
'cause the impact is present.

641
00:34:00.695 --> 00:34:03.180
Thank you both for sharing those examples.

642
00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:07.000
I think it's helping me then think a little bit about

643
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.003
what messages that in those inadvertent messages

644
00:34:11.003 --> 00:34:12.353
that may come through

645
00:34:12.353 --> 00:34:15.000
when we're communicating grading structures

646
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.200
or grading expectations

647
00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:21.650
and how important it is to hear from students

648
00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:24.280
how they're receiving that communication.

649
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:28.681
Because if I've poorly communicated something

650
00:34:28.681 --> 00:34:31.240
about those expectations around grading

651
00:34:31.240 --> 00:34:33.441
then it could have really severe consequences.

652
00:34:33.441 --> 00:34:35.513
So I appreciate that.

653
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:41.198
Okay, here's that kind of radical question maybe,

654
00:34:41.198 --> 00:34:42.156
what would happen

655
00:34:42.156 --> 00:34:45.698
if we just didn't grade in higher education?

656
00:34:45.698 --> 00:34:49.923
What would be the benefits and what issues might be raised?

657
00:34:50.790 --> 00:34:52.390
Mimah, I'm gonna start with you.

658
00:34:53.673 --> 00:34:55.575
<v ->Well, as I was kind of saying</v>

659
00:34:55.575 --> 00:34:57.935
I feel like it would take away a lot of stress

660
00:34:57.935 --> 00:34:59.220
from like the student perspective,

661
00:34:59.220 --> 00:35:04.220
but it's also really hard to track people's understanding.

662
00:35:04.909 --> 00:35:08.096
I feel like a better kind of balance

663
00:35:08.096 --> 00:35:12.807
would be instead of assessments having more smaller quizzes

664
00:35:12.807 --> 00:35:17.376
or something, or not just one big exam

665
00:35:17.376 --> 00:35:20.605
where if you get one bad grade

666
00:35:20.605 --> 00:35:24.266
that's like 30% of your grade for that class

667
00:35:24.266 --> 00:35:26.479
which is really harmful

668
00:35:26.479 --> 00:35:29.774
versus a bunch of like smaller quizzes

669
00:35:29.774 --> 00:35:34.482
that might cover the same material as a singular exam.

670
00:35:34.482 --> 00:35:37.367
So like in that sense,

671
00:35:37.367 --> 00:35:41.771
I focus more on like removing biggest assessments

672
00:35:41.771 --> 00:35:45.990
versus actual grading because grading is kind of helpful

673
00:35:45.990 --> 00:35:47.291
as far as feedback.

674
00:35:47.291 --> 00:35:52.291
It's just like if it's one major grade

675
00:35:52.544 --> 00:35:57.053
that's more harmful in my experience than helpful.

676
00:35:59.226 --> 00:36:02.145
<v ->Great, let's add some additional voices to this question</v>

677
00:36:02.145 --> 00:36:06.398
about what would happen if we didn't grade Julia.

678
00:36:06.398 --> 00:36:09.606
<v ->Yeah, so I think that if we didn't grade</v>

679
00:36:09.606 --> 00:36:11.498
the benefits of that would be,

680
00:36:11.498 --> 00:36:12.813
I think for a lot of classes

681
00:36:12.813 --> 00:36:17.111
you'd have a more holistic understanding of the material

682
00:36:17.111 --> 00:36:21.385
because you wouldn't be so focused on just specific parts

683
00:36:21.385 --> 00:36:23.864
of the semester learning specific things.

684
00:36:23.864 --> 00:36:26.266
I think that it could be really beneficial

685
00:36:26.266 --> 00:36:28.586
and I think that taking the stress away

686
00:36:28.586 --> 00:36:31.683
from receiving the grade and actually putting that focus

687
00:36:31.683 --> 00:36:34.501
towards learning the material for future classes

688
00:36:34.501 --> 00:36:36.693
or for your future careers, I mean,

689
00:36:36.693 --> 00:36:38.383
we're getting a degree for a reason

690
00:36:38.383 --> 00:36:40.225
and we're getting this education for a reason.

691
00:36:40.225 --> 00:36:43.422
So I think that that would be really beneficial

692
00:36:43.422 --> 00:36:46.044
and it would also be helpful for the students

693
00:36:46.044 --> 00:36:50.078
who don't do so well on the traditional grading measures.

694
00:36:50.078 --> 00:36:54.808
I think that they would get a better college experience,

695
00:36:54.808 --> 00:36:56.509
the downsides of that,

696
00:36:56.509 --> 00:37:01.349
I do think some students are motivated by a number

697
00:37:01.349 --> 00:37:05.099
and by a grade and so I think that it might be difficult

698
00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:08.874
for some students to be motivated

699
00:37:08.874 --> 00:37:11.081
to put work into the class.

700
00:37:11.081 --> 00:37:13.290
So I think that there definitely should be

701
00:37:13.290 --> 00:37:14.975
another form of accountability.

702
00:37:14.975 --> 00:37:18.288
And just for a specific example for one of my classes

703
00:37:18.288 --> 00:37:19.622
that I really enjoyed the way

704
00:37:19.622 --> 00:37:22.464
that this teacher did her grading.

705
00:37:22.464 --> 00:37:24.395
She did something called specs grading

706
00:37:24.395 --> 00:37:28.691
where it's based on the effort that you put into the course

707
00:37:28.691 --> 00:37:31.099
and that's the grade you get out.

708
00:37:31.099 --> 00:37:34.413
And basically she had all these assignments

709
00:37:34.413 --> 00:37:37.958
and if you do the assignments to a satisfactory level

710
00:37:37.958 --> 00:37:39.772
then you will get this grade.

711
00:37:39.772 --> 00:37:41.732
If you don't want to do one of the assignments

712
00:37:41.732 --> 00:37:43.020
and you get this grade.

713
00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:45.009
And so it kind of, for me satisfactory,

714
00:37:45.009 --> 00:37:47.733
it does it mean just putting a little bit of effort in

715
00:37:47.733 --> 00:37:52.733
I still think a satisfactory level of work is a lot of work

716
00:37:52.837 --> 00:37:54.695
and you're putting a lot of effort in,

717
00:37:54.695 --> 00:37:57.026
so I don't think that it was really a way for students

718
00:37:57.026 --> 00:37:59.512
to slack off but I think that it was nice because

719
00:37:59.512 --> 00:38:01.094
it showed that if you were willing

720
00:38:01.094 --> 00:38:02.935
to put the time into learning the material

721
00:38:02.935 --> 00:38:04.720
and the effort into the class

722
00:38:04.720 --> 00:38:06.543
then you would be rewarded for that.

723
00:38:06.543 --> 00:38:10.720
And so as much, I think all the students at the same thing

724
00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:14.482
it was much more motivating because you really could control

725
00:38:14.482 --> 00:38:17.005
how well you did in the class.

726
00:38:17.005 --> 00:38:19.318
So that's my take on that.

727
00:38:19.318 --> 00:38:22.313
<v ->Very helpful, thank you.</v>

728
00:38:22.313 --> 00:38:24.816
Okay Isabelle, what are you thoughts

729
00:38:24.816 --> 00:38:26.413
about getting rid of grades?

730
00:38:29.031 --> 00:38:33.618
<v ->Yeah, so I think some benefits would be less stress</v>

731
00:38:33.618 --> 00:38:37.580
also less pressure and with less pressure,

732
00:38:37.580 --> 00:38:40.964
sometimes people can be lacking motivation

733
00:38:40.964 --> 00:38:43.003
on that side of things.

734
00:38:43.933 --> 00:38:45.936
Grading gives you a perspective

735
00:38:45.936 --> 00:38:47.816
on how well you know the material,

736
00:38:47.816 --> 00:38:52.400
your level of retention and some exams really assess you

737
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.583
on your ability to apply that information.

738
00:38:55.583 --> 00:38:59.936
So there is a fine line between the benefits

739
00:38:59.936 --> 00:39:04.936
and issues of implementing grading in higher education

740
00:39:05.298 --> 00:39:08.557
and something that I just like to point out is last year

741
00:39:08.557 --> 00:39:13.557
students had the option to do a pass/fail with COVID.

742
00:39:13.885 --> 00:39:18.359
And I think that's not always an option for students

743
00:39:18.359 --> 00:39:20.790
to be able to take the grade that they have

744
00:39:20.790 --> 00:39:23.089
and just make it a pass/fail option.

745
00:39:23.089 --> 00:39:24.731
So maybe that is something

746
00:39:24.731 --> 00:39:27.943
that's going to be implemented in future years

747
00:39:27.943 --> 00:39:32.943
and I'd be interested in kind of exploring

748
00:39:33.762 --> 00:39:35.513
that option as well.

749
00:39:36.755 --> 00:39:38.588
<v ->Yeah, there's some fascinating history</v>

750
00:39:38.588 --> 00:39:41.262
of when like letter grades came into our system

751
00:39:41.262 --> 00:39:43.432
so they didn't know it used to be here,

752
00:39:43.432 --> 00:39:47.942
but we are deeply connected to them at this point.

753
00:39:47.942 --> 00:39:50.967
That's really interesting that I'm bringing up like sort

754
00:39:50.967 --> 00:39:54.377
of that experience of the pass/fail option in spring 2020

755
00:39:54.377 --> 00:39:56.784
and how that might be an interesting thing

756
00:39:56.784 --> 00:39:58.645
to consider going forward.

757
00:39:58.645 --> 00:40:01.308
Yeah, all right, that's going a little tangible.

758
00:40:01.308 --> 00:40:05.792
We've got an audience of faculty and TA instructors.

759
00:40:05.792 --> 00:40:07.797
What advice would you give them

760
00:40:07.797 --> 00:40:10.346
about grading or feedback or both?

761
00:40:10.346 --> 00:40:13.423
Isabelle, I'm gonna start with you.

762
00:40:15.584 --> 00:40:20.573
<v ->Yes, so for me, timed assignments don't really allow me</v>

763
00:40:20.573 --> 00:40:23.510
to produce the best product possible

764
00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:26.847
versus a product where I can really apply my creativity

765
00:40:26.847 --> 00:40:28.421
and really go all out.

766
00:40:28.421 --> 00:40:33.402
I remember there was one class where I was taking an exam.

767
00:40:33.402 --> 00:40:37.073
I was the last one in there and I think a time to final

768
00:40:37.073 --> 00:40:39.654
and the professor was actually walking out of the classroom

769
00:40:39.654 --> 00:40:42.528
and I was trying to like finish some calculations

770
00:40:42.528 --> 00:40:45.547
and they said, "Okay, like, you don't give it to me now

771
00:40:45.547 --> 00:40:46.711
"like I'm leaving."

772
00:40:46.711 --> 00:40:49.097
And so that was like a major shock to me.

773
00:40:49.097 --> 00:40:51.710
I was already like very stressed out

774
00:40:51.710 --> 00:40:55.138
'cause I was just trying to get this one problem done.

775
00:40:55.138 --> 00:40:59.875
And so with that, I think I always excelled

776
00:40:59.875 --> 00:41:03.304
with producing products that really allow me

777
00:41:03.304 --> 00:41:08.080
to put in my creativity and do some research on my own.

778
00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:11.018
Like there is one class I'm in this semester

779
00:41:11.018 --> 00:41:13.868
that I was able to work with.

780
00:41:13.868 --> 00:41:16.130
So my roommates were in the class

781
00:41:16.130 --> 00:41:18.574
and we produced like a whole movie with like commercials

782
00:41:18.574 --> 00:41:22.093
and like ads on this one drug on the market

783
00:41:22.093 --> 00:41:23.481
and so that was really exciting.

784
00:41:23.481 --> 00:41:26.859
And then for another project, I wrote a whole story

785
00:41:26.859 --> 00:41:31.449
about the student who was suffering from anxiety

786
00:41:31.449 --> 00:41:34.589
and she's (indistinct) feedback and it had like 10 chapters.

787
00:41:34.589 --> 00:41:35.593
So that was like something

788
00:41:35.593 --> 00:41:37.657
that I was like really excited to do.

789
00:41:37.657 --> 00:41:41.652
So I would say me putting more weigh and emphasis

790
00:41:41.652 --> 00:41:45.429
on those creative projects and emphasis on the creativity

791
00:41:45.429 --> 00:41:46.722
within the subject,

792
00:41:46.722 --> 00:41:51.047
rather than those straightforward timed assessments.

793
00:41:51.047 --> 00:41:56.047
I know those are also important but maybe

794
00:41:57.062 --> 00:41:59.098
putting a little bit variability

795
00:41:59.098 --> 00:42:01.527
between the weights of those assignments

796
00:42:01.527 --> 00:42:03.836
into your final grade.

797
00:42:03.836 --> 00:42:06.153
<v ->Very interesting, thank you.</v>

798
00:42:07.554 --> 00:42:10.277
And Julia, what would you say about this?

799
00:42:10.277 --> 00:42:12.669
What advice would you give?

800
00:42:12.669 --> 00:42:17.669
<v ->Yeah, I definitely 100% agree with what Isabelle said</v>

801
00:42:17.716 --> 00:42:21.372
and I'm putting just a little bit more weight

802
00:42:21.372 --> 00:42:25.381
onto more assignments so that way it's not so detrimental

803
00:42:25.381 --> 00:42:28.207
and you can assess your learning in different ways.

804
00:42:28.207 --> 00:42:31.149
And I know that it's probably gonna be more work

805
00:42:31.149 --> 00:42:32.365
for the professors.

806
00:42:32.365 --> 00:42:34.797
So maybe having TA's are another way

807
00:42:34.797 --> 00:42:37.854
to make this more manageable.

808
00:42:37.854 --> 00:42:40.360
But I would say with grading and feedback

809
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.542
the only negative thing that, well, not the only,

810
00:42:43.542 --> 00:42:45.624
but one of the negative things that I faced is

811
00:42:45.624 --> 00:42:50.073
when you have papers or lab reports or something like that,

812
00:42:50.073 --> 00:42:52.866
and you get feedback but you don't get feedback

813
00:42:52.866 --> 00:42:56.824
until well after you already had to submit another one,

814
00:42:56.824 --> 00:42:59.817
it's hard because you're making the same mistake

815
00:42:59.817 --> 00:43:02.765
multiple times and you don't realize

816
00:43:02.765 --> 00:43:04.320
you're making the mistake

817
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:06.010
because you haven't gotten the feedback yet.

818
00:43:06.010 --> 00:43:07.698
So I think if you are gonna have these assignments

819
00:43:07.698 --> 00:43:10.107
just being able to receive the grade

820
00:43:10.107 --> 00:43:11.920
and receive that feedback

821
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:13.916
before you go on to do the next assignment.

822
00:43:13.916 --> 00:43:16.155
So that way you can actually implement that feedback

823
00:43:16.155 --> 00:43:17.457
instead of just getting it

824
00:43:17.457 --> 00:43:19.761
and then it's too late to make any changes.

825
00:43:19.761 --> 00:43:23.630
That is one thing I would have to say.

826
00:43:23.630 --> 00:43:25.651
And then a really positive experience

827
00:43:25.651 --> 00:43:28.875
I had with feedback is for one of my classes

828
00:43:28.875 --> 00:43:32.463
we had this really big research paper due

829
00:43:32.463 --> 00:43:35.195
but instead of just making it this one paper due

830
00:43:35.195 --> 00:43:36.906
at the end of the semester

831
00:43:36.906 --> 00:43:39.423
the professor broke it up into smaller sections

832
00:43:39.423 --> 00:43:42.292
and she gave us feedback throughout the way.

833
00:43:42.292 --> 00:43:45.642
So by the time when it was time to write the final paper

834
00:43:45.642 --> 00:43:49.167
I was able to take her feedback, correct it

835
00:43:49.167 --> 00:43:52.469
and in the end it was a much better paper I did,

836
00:43:52.469 --> 00:43:55.170
I put a lot more time and effort into it that way

837
00:43:55.170 --> 00:43:57.140
than I would've if I was just writing that paper.

838
00:43:57.140 --> 00:43:59.139
And I think that that was definitely a positive experience

839
00:43:59.139 --> 00:44:02.373
because if you were making a mistake you had time to fix it

840
00:44:02.373 --> 00:44:04.212
while it still wasn't worth as much.

841
00:44:04.212 --> 00:44:09.212
I think everyone had a better product by the end that way.

842
00:44:11.778 --> 00:44:15.230
<v ->So both timeliness but then also</v>

843
00:44:16.363 --> 00:44:19.067
what we like a formative assessment

844
00:44:19.067 --> 00:44:21.260
like as you're going you're getting feedback

845
00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:24.107
so that by the time you do the sort of bigger final version,

846
00:44:24.107 --> 00:44:28.549
you've had chances to make those corrections

847
00:44:28.549 --> 00:44:32.138
and improve the product, great.

848
00:44:32.138 --> 00:44:35.490
I think sort of on this theme of assessment

849
00:44:35.490 --> 00:44:39.127
and sort of assessing learning,

850
00:44:39.127 --> 00:44:42.792
obviously I think we're kind of all recognizing

851
00:44:42.792 --> 00:44:44.442
that assignments and exams

852
00:44:44.442 --> 00:44:47.054
and all these other kind of structures in a class

853
00:44:47.054 --> 00:44:49.773
are meant to assess,

854
00:44:49.773 --> 00:44:53.057
who's that assessment for, Mimah.

855
00:44:55.488 --> 00:45:00.401
<v ->I mean, oftentimes when I just get like a number</v>

856
00:45:00.401 --> 00:45:03.679
and no feedback, it feels like it's not really for me

857
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:08.679
just because like I'm getting a certain number

858
00:45:10.387 --> 00:45:13.790
of multiple choice wrong might not actually show

859
00:45:13.790 --> 00:45:18.640
like comprehension, just cause like I know personally

860
00:45:18.640 --> 00:45:20.427
I have really bad test anxiety,

861
00:45:20.427 --> 00:45:23.231
so I'll like make really stupid mistakes

862
00:45:23.231 --> 00:45:26.442
that like don't actually show my understanding of questions.

863
00:45:26.442 --> 00:45:29.225
It's just like, I got stressed in that moment

864
00:45:29.225 --> 00:45:33.131
and pick the wrong thing or probable the wrong thing

865
00:45:33.131 --> 00:45:36.896
but like getting a number it'll show like,

866
00:45:36.896 --> 00:45:40.274
oh you're about here for understanding, even though like

867
00:45:40.274 --> 00:45:45.274
that might not actually be my understanding of the material

868
00:45:45.646 --> 00:45:50.646
versus like feedback I feel like when I do assignments

869
00:45:51.395 --> 00:45:56.108
and I get comments or even iClicker questions

870
00:45:56.108 --> 00:46:00.175
right off the bat, I kind of have a better understanding

871
00:46:00.175 --> 00:46:05.140
of my own understanding just 'cause it's not just,

872
00:46:07.277 --> 00:46:10.920
oh I'm getting stressed and I'm putting the wrong answer.

873
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:12.810
Like, especially with assignments

874
00:46:12.810 --> 00:46:14.629
I have time to work on it on my own,

875
00:46:14.629 --> 00:46:19.233
so I can actually demonstrate what I'm understanding

876
00:46:19.233 --> 00:46:20.832
and taking away from the class

877
00:46:20.832 --> 00:46:22.719
so that I feel like that's more genuine

878
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:26.088
unlike actually represents what I'm taking away.

879
00:46:26.088 --> 00:46:30.160
Same with like iClickers you're in a group of people,

880
00:46:30.160 --> 00:46:31.223
there's like it,

881
00:46:33.628 --> 00:46:35.066
you know what you put

882
00:46:35.066 --> 00:46:38.285
but there's no way of personally being like,

883
00:46:38.285 --> 00:46:42.877
oh you got like this amount wrong

884
00:46:42.877 --> 00:46:44.568
in front of the class type of thing

885
00:46:44.568 --> 00:46:47.598
versus like a previous example where we were talking about

886
00:46:47.598 --> 00:46:52.513
like this number of people got a D on exams and stuff.

887
00:46:53.441 --> 00:46:57.500
So in that sense, grades themselves

888
00:46:57.500 --> 00:46:59.404
don't feel they're for students

889
00:46:59.404 --> 00:47:02.913
but like feedback feels more like it's for students.

890
00:47:03.833 --> 00:47:07.143
<v ->Thanks, and Isabelle.</v>

891
00:47:09.930 --> 00:47:11.587
<v ->Yeah, I agree too.</v>

892
00:47:11.587 --> 00:47:15.820
I think for students, grades are about valuing knowledge

893
00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:17.811
and of course to a certain extent

894
00:47:17.811 --> 00:47:20.077
and these grades can be used as tools.

895
00:47:20.077 --> 00:47:22.224
And then for professors,

896
00:47:22.224 --> 00:47:27.224
students grades aren't a reflection of their own knowledge

897
00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:30.941
in content I mean, they're experts on the content

898
00:47:30.941 --> 00:47:34.230
that they are teaching, but the grades

899
00:47:35.134 --> 00:47:38.842
are reflective of their ability to convey that knowledge

900
00:47:38.842 --> 00:47:42.455
to a group who does put an effort who does study for exams,

901
00:47:42.455 --> 00:47:45.529
who goes through the guiding questions

902
00:47:45.529 --> 00:47:49.912
and really make sure that they make sure they know it.

903
00:47:49.912 --> 00:47:54.218
And so if your students aren't doing well collectively

904
00:47:54.218 --> 00:47:56.513
it's time to come up with other ways

905
00:47:56.513 --> 00:47:59.701
of delivering that content to make learning more accessible.

906
00:47:59.701 --> 00:48:03.443
And that's something we also learn at the Tutoring Center

907
00:48:03.443 --> 00:48:06.810
for study skills is to tailor the way you teach

908
00:48:06.810 --> 00:48:08.950
so it best fits the students.

909
00:48:08.950 --> 00:48:12.002
And if that means creating different modes of learning

910
00:48:12.002 --> 00:48:15.371
like different auditory, different visual,

911
00:48:15.371 --> 00:48:19.598
different activities then so be it.

912
00:48:19.598 --> 00:48:21.777
<v ->That's so interesting thing about</v>

913
00:48:21.777 --> 00:48:25.660
how to make assessment as closely aligned

914
00:48:25.660 --> 00:48:29.800
to a certain set of the group of students as possible.

915
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.773
We have one more pre-planned question,

916
00:48:32.773 --> 00:48:35.083
but I want to put it on hold because

917
00:48:35.083 --> 00:48:37.065
we have some questions from the audience.

918
00:48:37.065 --> 00:48:40.230
And then I think the our last pre-planned question

919
00:48:40.230 --> 00:48:43.447
may be a very good one to end on the whole thing.

920
00:48:43.447 --> 00:48:45.832
Susan, I know you've been like kind of monitoring the chat.

921
00:48:45.832 --> 00:48:50.509
<v ->Yeah, well, I'm gonna take the last question first</v>

922
00:48:50.509 --> 00:48:52.629
actually because they think it really dovetails

923
00:48:52.629 --> 00:48:55.493
with the last little piece of this conversation.

924
00:48:55.493 --> 00:48:58.963
Caroline, do you want to ask you a question?

925
00:49:00.743 --> 00:49:02.810
<v Caroline>Yeah, thank you, Susan.</v>

926
00:49:02.810 --> 00:49:04.544
And thank you everybody for participating.

927
00:49:04.544 --> 00:49:08.110
And I totally understand the student's sort of perspective

928
00:49:08.110 --> 00:49:10.648
that just a greater a number is not super useful

929
00:49:10.648 --> 00:49:12.341
in terms of feedback,

930
00:49:12.341 --> 00:49:14.470
but as a faculty member who spends

931
00:49:14.470 --> 00:49:16.960
an enormous amount of time grading papers

932
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:17.793
and writing comments,

933
00:49:17.793 --> 00:49:19.745
I would like to know from your perspective

934
00:49:19.745 --> 00:49:23.678
what type of comments that faculty write on papers

935
00:49:23.678 --> 00:49:28.111
is more useful and less useful and how as a faculty member

936
00:49:28.111 --> 00:49:31.020
I can kind of try to figure out what is most useful

937
00:49:31.020 --> 00:49:34.046
versus like what is an efficient use of my time.

938
00:49:34.046 --> 00:49:36.347
So sometimes I feel like maybe I'm spending a lot of time

939
00:49:36.347 --> 00:49:37.588
writing comments on papers

940
00:49:37.588 --> 00:49:40.236
and worried that students aren't even reading them.

941
00:49:40.236 --> 00:49:42.259
And so just from your perspective,

942
00:49:42.259 --> 00:49:43.517
like what is useful for me,

943
00:49:43.517 --> 00:49:47.653
what kind of feedback is useful for me to provide?

944
00:49:55.251 --> 00:49:59.477
<v ->So from a student perspective, I don't know,</v>

945
00:49:59.477 --> 00:50:01.736
I definitely have always run all the comments

946
00:50:01.736 --> 00:50:03.160
that I ever receive.

947
00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:05.329
So I would hope that most students do,

948
00:50:05.329 --> 00:50:07.552
because if you're taking the time to make those comments

949
00:50:07.552 --> 00:50:09.432
I think it's important to read those.

950
00:50:09.432 --> 00:50:10.860
I think that the most,

951
00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:13.240
I don't know if this is specific enough for you,

952
00:50:13.240 --> 00:50:15.182
but the most helpful comments for me

953
00:50:15.182 --> 00:50:19.257
are ways that if it wasn't satisfactory what I wrote

954
00:50:19.257 --> 00:50:22.051
ways that I could improve that, or even a suggestion

955
00:50:22.051 --> 00:50:27.051
as opposed to just what was done wrong in that sense.

956
00:50:27.287 --> 00:50:29.070
I don't know if that really makes sense

957
00:50:29.070 --> 00:50:33.038
but really constructive feedback and how it could be changed

958
00:50:33.038 --> 00:50:36.662
for the next paper or something along those lines.

959
00:50:36.662 --> 00:50:39.697
And then I also really enjoy comments

960
00:50:39.697 --> 00:50:42.300
that are parsed that the professor liked,

961
00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:43.414
because I think that sometimes

962
00:50:43.414 --> 00:50:45.667
when you just get the comments on what you did bad

963
00:50:45.667 --> 00:50:48.637
it makes you feel like you didn't do a good job at all.

964
00:50:48.637 --> 00:50:51.871
But I think that sometimes I know when professors point out

965
00:50:51.871 --> 00:50:55.983
parts that they really liked that is really motivating too.

966
00:50:59.226 --> 00:51:02.196
<v ->Yeah, I'd agree, I think when professors do that also</v>

967
00:51:02.196 --> 00:51:04.182
creates a connection with students.

968
00:51:04.182 --> 00:51:07.874
And so I'd say focusing on where things went wrong

969
00:51:07.874 --> 00:51:10.382
or off track, but also where things went right

970
00:51:10.382 --> 00:51:13.218
and then again, connecting that to

971
00:51:13.218 --> 00:51:16.127
what students are gonna be doing in the future

972
00:51:16.127 --> 00:51:18.313
and how it relates to other work.

973
00:51:21.460 --> 00:51:25.087
<v ->I agree as well, sorry.</v>

974
00:51:25.087 --> 00:51:26.220
I agree as well.

975
00:51:26.220 --> 00:51:29.323
I think maybe not putting in directly

976
00:51:29.323 --> 00:51:31.854
what the students should put in their paper or assignment

977
00:51:31.854 --> 00:51:34.459
'cause that doesn't really seem fair,

978
00:51:34.459 --> 00:51:36.853
but even just putting guiding questions

979
00:51:36.853 --> 00:51:40.084
that the student should put in like you ask a question

980
00:51:40.084 --> 00:51:41.680
and it's you will have to think about it

981
00:51:41.680 --> 00:51:43.257
and put it in their own words.

982
00:51:43.257 --> 00:51:47.183
And I agree, always some good feedback is really appreciated

983
00:51:47.183 --> 00:51:51.453
and it makes me feel yeah, like you connect more.

984
00:51:53.258 --> 00:51:54.466
<v ->Mimah.</v>

985
00:51:54.466 --> 00:51:57.346
<v ->Yeah, so something that I had a professor do</v>

986
00:51:57.346 --> 00:51:59.387
was at the end of every PowerPoint,

987
00:51:59.387 --> 00:52:01.237
they'd be like, this is a list of concepts

988
00:52:01.237 --> 00:52:04.807
that we went over in like this PowerPoint,

989
00:52:04.807 --> 00:52:08.057
and then the comments on like assignments

990
00:52:08.057 --> 00:52:10.662
and stuff would be like, go back and look at this concept

991
00:52:10.662 --> 00:52:12.956
and that was really helpful for me.

992
00:52:12.956 --> 00:52:14.729
'Cause I was like, oh, okay.

993
00:52:14.729 --> 00:52:16.788
So I'm like, I'm missing this section

994
00:52:16.788 --> 00:52:21.013
for like my free response or whatever the question was.

995
00:52:21.013 --> 00:52:21.846
And I could go back

996
00:52:21.846 --> 00:52:25.123
and reread that section of the PowerPoint.

997
00:52:26.418 --> 00:52:31.418
<v ->Great, we've got another question who questionnaire</v>

998
00:52:31.511 --> 00:52:33.979
Professor Phelps from the History Department,

999
00:52:33.979 --> 00:52:36.942
who's noting that I'm wondering whether

1000
00:52:36.942 --> 00:52:38.786
you have different feelings or experiences

1001
00:52:38.786 --> 00:52:41.004
in grading and feedback for courses

1002
00:52:41.004 --> 00:52:42.706
that are outside your major

1003
00:52:42.706 --> 00:52:46.440
where perhaps you might feel a little bit less confident

1004
00:52:47.395 --> 00:52:50.563
as opposed to grading and response in the major?

1005
00:52:55.220 --> 00:52:58.740
<v ->Going off virtually I kinda talked about earlier,</v>

1006
00:52:58.740 --> 00:53:01.000
I know I've taken some English courses.

1007
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:04.478
So most of my courses are very STEM heavy.

1008
00:53:04.478 --> 00:53:09.335
So taking English courses or more writing intensive courses

1009
00:53:09.335 --> 00:53:12.460
makes me very anxious and I definitely find that

1010
00:53:12.460 --> 00:53:15.316
I'm not as confident in my work.

1011
00:53:15.316 --> 00:53:18.104
So kind of some things that I found

1012
00:53:18.104 --> 00:53:20.137
to help with that anxiousness

1013
00:53:20.137 --> 00:53:23.490
and to help with my overall learning in the course

1014
00:53:23.490 --> 00:53:25.620
was kind of, again what Julia saying,

1015
00:53:25.620 --> 00:53:28.297
where if we have a major paper due

1016
00:53:28.297 --> 00:53:31.903
or a major assignment kind of breaking up that assignment.

1017
00:53:31.903 --> 00:53:34.549
So as I go along, I can get that feedback

1018
00:53:34.549 --> 00:53:37.456
and I can understand what I'm doing well

1019
00:53:37.456 --> 00:53:39.334
and where I can improve.

1020
00:53:39.334 --> 00:53:42.641
And it just, again, I feel like I get a lot more

1021
00:53:42.641 --> 00:53:45.940
out of the assignment I put in more effort

1022
00:53:45.940 --> 00:53:48.271
and that helps me develop that confidence

1023
00:53:48.271 --> 00:53:50.486
that I truly don't think I would have

1024
00:53:50.486 --> 00:53:54.180
if I would just have to write a full paper, submit it

1025
00:53:54.180 --> 00:53:57.970
and then cross my fingers that I do a good job on it.

1026
00:53:57.970 --> 00:54:01.763
So that's definitely one example that I can think of.

1027
00:54:03.790 --> 00:54:05.856
<v ->So I know that there's a couple of other questions</v>

1028
00:54:05.856 --> 00:54:08.133
so I don't want to invite all five of you

1029
00:54:08.133 --> 00:54:09.846
to come in and every question

1030
00:54:09.846 --> 00:54:12.294
because which would be totally fascinating

1031
00:54:12.294 --> 00:54:15.327
but will also mean we don't have as much time to get

1032
00:54:15.327 --> 00:54:17.163
to as many different questions.

1033
00:54:17.163 --> 00:54:21.503
So let me just ask is there anybody who'd like to toss

1034
00:54:21.503 --> 00:54:25.001
a different sort of idea out in response to that question

1035
00:54:25.001 --> 00:54:28.183
about experiences with grading outside of the major?

1036
00:54:34.487 --> 00:54:39.445
Alright, let me invite Professor Gill to unmute

1037
00:54:39.445 --> 00:54:40.777
and ask your question.

1038
00:54:40.777 --> 00:54:44.148
<v ->Hi, thank you so much for the great panel</v>

1039
00:54:44.148 --> 00:54:45.149
and your insight.

1040
00:54:45.149 --> 00:54:46.696
I have a question for Julia

1041
00:54:46.696 --> 00:54:49.348
and anyone else who's had specs grading.

1042
00:54:49.348 --> 00:54:52.587
So I'm curious, the beauty of specs grading

1043
00:54:52.587 --> 00:54:55.106
is that you have your checklist

1044
00:54:55.106 --> 00:54:58.967
and you know what you need to do for your assignment.

1045
00:54:58.967 --> 00:55:03.967
In theory that means comments and feedback isn't needed.

1046
00:55:05.243 --> 00:55:06.550
How did that work for you?

1047
00:55:06.550 --> 00:55:10.015
Because I like specs grading

1048
00:55:10.015 --> 00:55:12.692
but I feel like I'm supposed to comment

1049
00:55:12.692 --> 00:55:14.363
and give individual feedback,

1050
00:55:14.363 --> 00:55:19.363
which then kind of negates the whole process of specs

1051
00:55:22.007 --> 00:55:24.894
'cause I'm still doing that work.

1052
00:55:24.894 --> 00:55:26.863
So I'd like your input on that.

1053
00:55:28.371 --> 00:55:31.509
<v ->Okay, so for me, when I had the specs grading</v>

1054
00:55:31.509 --> 00:55:34.084
I still got comments and feedback

1055
00:55:34.084 --> 00:55:39.084
and I still found that helpful because I just just assumed

1056
00:55:39.174 --> 00:55:42.663
that it was really a pass or fail assignment.

1057
00:55:42.663 --> 00:55:45.115
It was kind of under the impression

1058
00:55:45.115 --> 00:55:47.834
that you still have to do well on the assignment

1059
00:55:47.834 --> 00:55:50.964
in order to get credit for that assignment,

1060
00:55:50.964 --> 00:55:51.955
for the specs grading.

1061
00:55:51.955 --> 00:55:54.064
And so that those comments and feedback

1062
00:55:54.064 --> 00:55:57.408
still helped me for the next assignments.

1063
00:55:57.408 --> 00:56:01.730
And I think maybe even a way to do it is to maybe say

1064
00:56:01.730 --> 00:56:04.771
I'll be a little bit more lenient on the first one

1065
00:56:04.771 --> 00:56:06.753
but I want you to take my feedback

1066
00:56:06.753 --> 00:56:10.132
and I have higher expectations for the next one.

1067
00:56:10.132 --> 00:56:14.289
So I think that that's kind of a way to make those comments

1068
00:56:14.289 --> 00:56:17.599
and still feel like they're being put to good use

1069
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:19.891
with the specs grading.

1070
00:56:19.891 --> 00:56:23.754
And yeah, I don't know if that...

1071
00:56:23.754 --> 00:56:25.916
Did I answer your question at all?

1072
00:56:25.916 --> 00:56:28.805
<v ->Yeah, okay, thanks.</v>

1073
00:56:28.805 --> 00:56:32.346
<v ->Any others of our panelists had any experience</v>

1074
00:56:32.346 --> 00:56:33.893
with specs grading?

1075
00:56:37.352 --> 00:56:41.470
Well, here's another question also from Professor Phelps

1076
00:56:41.470 --> 00:56:43.128
about, "If you don't get a grade

1077
00:56:43.128 --> 00:56:45.727
"how do you know that you're learning success?"

1078
00:56:46.620 --> 00:56:49.313
So any thoughts on that?

1079
00:56:51.788 --> 00:56:54.245
<v ->Or hypothetically, if we got rid of grades as well</v>

1080
00:56:54.245 --> 00:56:56.130
then maybe you don't have that experience

1081
00:56:56.130 --> 00:56:59.130
but you're kind of thinking about what might that look like.

1082
00:57:03.450 --> 00:57:07.525
<v ->I did see in the comments, someone wrote about</v>

1083
00:57:07.525 --> 00:57:10.530
proficiency based learning.

1084
00:57:10.530 --> 00:57:12.760
So as I'm Vermont residents,

1085
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:14.509
so my brother is currently actually in high school

1086
00:57:14.509 --> 00:57:16.286
where they kind of did this shift

1087
00:57:16.286 --> 00:57:18.357
to proficiency based learning

1088
00:57:18.357 --> 00:57:22.325
where he will get kind of more frequent assessments

1089
00:57:22.325 --> 00:57:25.840
of not just, you know,

1090
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:28.661
they got rid of like letter grades and number grades

1091
00:57:28.661 --> 00:57:31.692
and they instead kind of assess the practical skills

1092
00:57:31.692 --> 00:57:34.341
and the general concepts

1093
00:57:34.341 --> 00:57:39.341
that students should be understanding throughout the course.

1094
00:57:39.837 --> 00:57:44.394
So it's more of a like formative assessment for them.

1095
00:57:44.394 --> 00:57:46.397
And you know I think as someone

1096
00:57:46.397 --> 00:57:49.060
who was used to going through high school

1097
00:57:49.060 --> 00:57:52.020
with the traditional grading scheme

1098
00:57:52.020 --> 00:57:55.052
that was very different for me

1099
00:57:55.052 --> 00:57:58.238
and I wasn't sure how that was gonna be properly executed,

1100
00:57:58.238 --> 00:58:02.575
but I do know obviously, it's not a university level

1101
00:58:02.575 --> 00:58:05.030
but he has really enjoyed that.

1102
00:58:05.030 --> 00:58:06.757
And I think it has really helped him understand

1103
00:58:06.757 --> 00:58:10.900
what aspects of his learning he can be better at.

1104
00:58:10.900 --> 00:58:15.080
But also it's a little less stressful for him.

1105
00:58:15.080 --> 00:58:18.559
I just wanted to point that out that I did,

1106
00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:20.441
I have some experience

1107
00:58:20.441 --> 00:58:22.700
with the proficiency-based learning,

1108
00:58:22.700 --> 00:58:25.083
so I just wanted to check that.

1109
00:58:29.803 --> 00:58:32.343
<v ->Any other questions or comments?</v>

1110
00:58:36.842 --> 00:58:39.343
<v ->I do have one final pre-planned question,</v>

1111
00:58:39.343 --> 00:58:40.671
so maybe we can go there

1112
00:58:40.671 --> 00:58:43.222
and then if we have a minute afterwards

1113
00:58:43.222 --> 00:58:48.000
we can come back to the audience as well for final thoughts.

1114
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.877
Okay, if you have questions about feedback or a grade

1115
00:58:50.877 --> 00:58:55.418
what's the best way for you to connect with your instructor?

1116
00:58:55.418 --> 00:58:57.827
And sort of with that what has an instructor done

1117
00:58:57.827 --> 00:58:59.265
or could they do to ensure

1118
00:58:59.265 --> 00:59:01.405
that you feel comfortable approaching them

1119
00:59:01.405 --> 00:59:05.282
about a grade or feedback, Meg?

1120
00:59:05.282 --> 00:59:07.229
<v ->Yeah, I think it's pretty simple.</v>

1121
00:59:07.229 --> 00:59:09.510
I've always really appreciated when professors

1122
00:59:09.510 --> 00:59:13.286
make it known, addressing the class that they are available

1123
00:59:13.286 --> 00:59:15.584
and welcome you to reach out to them.

1124
00:59:15.584 --> 00:59:17.528
It could go without saying,

1125
00:59:17.528 --> 00:59:19.738
and I think at a certain point in college,

1126
00:59:19.738 --> 00:59:21.273
if the professors know you

1127
00:59:21.273 --> 00:59:22.696
they think it does go without saying

1128
00:59:22.696 --> 00:59:25.191
but I think it creates a whole different environment

1129
00:59:25.191 --> 00:59:26.825
for students to operate in.

1130
00:59:26.825 --> 00:59:29.830
And then when it comes to seeking them out

1131
00:59:29.830 --> 00:59:32.839
when I have a question related to grading or feedback

1132
00:59:32.839 --> 00:59:35.772
I'm either gonna email them or go to their office

1133
00:59:35.772 --> 00:59:37.970
whichever feels more appropriate

1134
00:59:37.970 --> 00:59:39.814
given the nature of the question.

1135
00:59:39.814 --> 00:59:43.645
And I will say I don't think seeing a professor

1136
00:59:43.645 --> 00:59:45.536
after class in the classroom

1137
00:59:45.536 --> 00:59:47.689
when students are still going in and out

1138
00:59:47.689 --> 00:59:51.324
makes for a great opportunity for thoughtful conversation.

1139
00:59:51.324 --> 00:59:53.323
So I usually do prefer office hours being available

1140
00:59:53.323 --> 00:59:56.863
to speak to professors.

1141
00:59:56.863 --> 00:59:59.933
<v ->Great, thank you and Isabelle.</v>

1142
01:00:00.814 --> 01:00:04.232
<v ->Yeah, so I think going to teachers and professors</v>

1143
01:00:04.232 --> 01:00:08.202
about specific grades since middle school

1144
01:00:08.202 --> 01:00:13.049
and just to go up after class when students have left

1145
01:00:13.049 --> 01:00:15.493
or even to office hours now,

1146
01:00:15.493 --> 01:00:18.336
not to challenge them in any means

1147
01:00:18.336 --> 01:00:21.146
but we're even really arguing for a grade

1148
01:00:21.146 --> 01:00:24.086
but just to go over the questions that I didn't get right.

1149
01:00:24.086 --> 01:00:27.281
And to get feedback on some questions I didn't answer fully

1150
01:00:27.281 --> 01:00:30.393
to learn from my mistakes

1151
01:00:30.393 --> 01:00:34.008
and I think that this also improves future test taking

1152
01:00:34.008 --> 01:00:35.763
with that same professor.

1153
01:00:35.763 --> 01:00:39.519
It may just be you need to learn the style that the test

1154
01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:43.354
is implemented this assignment or the expectations.

1155
01:00:43.354 --> 01:00:47.972
And sometimes it's not actually about the content

1156
01:00:47.972 --> 01:00:49.951
that you know, or didn't know,

1157
01:00:49.951 --> 01:00:52.222
it's just about learning their style.

1158
01:00:52.222 --> 01:00:56.655
And so sometimes even just by explaining the process

1159
01:00:56.655 --> 01:00:59.244
of your test taking, how you approach the question,

1160
01:00:59.244 --> 01:01:02.110
sometimes you do get the point back, which is awesome.

1161
01:01:02.110 --> 01:01:03.174
Sometimes you don't.

1162
01:01:03.174 --> 01:01:08.174
And I think that as long as there's a nice communication

1163
01:01:08.544 --> 01:01:12.897
between the student professor, it really, it feels good.

1164
01:01:12.897 --> 01:01:16.024
And that's just about establishing those relationships

1165
01:01:16.024 --> 01:01:18.820
and making sure they're respectful

1166
01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:23.820
and you feel comfortable in that open environment.

1167
01:01:23.916 --> 01:01:25.340
<v ->That's great.</v>

1168
01:01:25.340 --> 01:01:26.904
<v ->Communication is so important.</v>

1169
01:01:26.904 --> 01:01:30.063
<v ->And I just want to say, thank you so much to our panelists</v>

1170
01:01:30.063 --> 01:01:31.554
for sharing their perspectives.

1171
01:01:31.554 --> 01:01:35.175
It was helpful for me in thinking about

1172
01:01:35.175 --> 01:01:36.830
some kind of next steps

1173
01:01:36.830 --> 01:01:39.913
that I maybe pursuing my own teaching

1174
01:01:39.913 --> 01:01:41.992
and also I think will broaden the conversations

1175
01:01:41.992 --> 01:01:45.270
that we're having as staff and faculty.

1176
01:01:45.270 --> 01:01:48.380
<v ->May be we can invite those who are able to unmute</v>

1177
01:01:48.380 --> 01:01:50.668
to simply unmute join me in a little round of applause

1178
01:01:50.668 --> 01:01:53.400
for our panel, thank you so much.

1179
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:54.700
(audience applaud)
<v ->Yes.</v>

1180
01:01:56.585 --> 01:01:58.975
Now I'll say goodbye to our panelists

1181
01:01:58.975 --> 01:02:02.226
but ask that those of you who can stay for another half hour

1182
01:02:02.226 --> 01:02:05.369
to discuss what you've learned you do that.

1183
01:02:05.369 --> 01:02:07.213
So thank you all and goodbye

1184
01:02:07.213 --> 01:02:09.512
and best of luck with the rest of the semester.

1185
01:02:09.512 --> 01:02:11.327
<v ->Thank you.</v>
<v ->Thank you.</v>

1186
01:02:11.327 --> 01:02:13.219
<v ->Thank you.</v>
<v ->Thank you.</v>