1 00:00:03,001 --> 00:00:03,834 - Hello everyone. 2 00:00:03,834 --> 00:00:04,667 This is Mark Cannella, UVM Extension. 3 00:00:04,667 --> 00:00:05,980 Thanks for joinin' us tonight. 4 00:00:05,980 --> 00:00:08,020 We are going to just wait a few more minutes 5 00:00:08,020 --> 00:00:11,460 for other participants to join. 6 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:14,270 So, just hang tight for another maybe 7 00:00:14,270 --> 00:00:16,883 one or two minutes and we'll get goin' with the program. 8 00:00:19,610 --> 00:00:20,750 All right, this is Mark Canella again. 9 00:00:20,750 --> 00:00:22,290 I think we'll get started, and that's usually 10 00:00:22,290 --> 00:00:23,229 the queue, once I start talking 11 00:00:23,229 --> 00:00:25,452 then there'll be a whole bunch of beeping 12 00:00:25,452 --> 00:00:28,720 and people, people will, people will join. 13 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:29,553 Thanks for joining us. 14 00:00:29,553 --> 00:00:32,730 This is the, the last of our Maple webinar series 15 00:00:32,730 --> 00:00:36,500 for fall 2021, so we're glad you're here. 16 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:38,180 Just a little bit of housekeeping, we do have 17 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:41,900 everyone muted on audio and muted on video 18 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:44,050 for the first portion, for our presenter. 19 00:00:44,050 --> 00:00:46,452 And then, when we get to a chance for Q&A, 20 00:00:46,452 --> 00:00:49,710 I'll flip a switch that will give you 21 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:51,572 a chance to enable your mic. 22 00:00:51,572 --> 00:00:54,190 You'll still have to manually unmute yourself 23 00:00:54,190 --> 00:00:56,170 if you wanna speak out with a question. 24 00:00:56,170 --> 00:00:58,290 And then at any point feel free to use 25 00:00:58,290 --> 00:00:59,970 the chat feature. 26 00:00:59,970 --> 00:01:01,430 At this point most people are familiar, 27 00:01:01,430 --> 00:01:05,350 but if you're not, look up, for me it's the top ribbon 28 00:01:05,350 --> 00:01:06,820 on Microsoft Teams. 29 00:01:06,820 --> 00:01:08,430 I've got a little cartoon bubble 30 00:01:08,430 --> 00:01:11,780 and click on that and feel free to chat. 31 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:13,311 We will probably save questions 32 00:01:13,311 --> 00:01:15,450 until the end, but that doesn't mean 33 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:18,540 you can't type them as we go. 34 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:21,173 So, you're welcome to add chat questions. 35 00:01:22,610 --> 00:01:23,443 Let's see, one other thing. 36 00:01:23,443 --> 00:01:25,510 We do have closed captioning available tonight, 37 00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:27,120 and I will just check to see we have 38 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,380 a closed captioner. 39 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:31,160 Looks like the link has been popped up there. 40 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,850 So, if that's something you're interested in, you 41 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:33,883 can click that. 42 00:01:36,210 --> 00:01:37,540 I've got a couple more announcements 43 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:40,543 and we're gonna hand it off to our, our presenter. 44 00:01:40,543 --> 00:01:43,540 Like I said, this is the last of the webinar series, 45 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:46,130 but generally, if you've registered 46 00:01:46,130 --> 00:01:48,630 you've probably been to our maplemanager.org website. 47 00:01:48,630 --> 00:01:50,600 Just a reminder, we've definitely got 48 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,910 a nice batch of business planning tools. 49 00:01:53,910 --> 00:01:56,140 We've got some financial calculators. 50 00:01:56,140 --> 00:01:58,130 There's legal resources and then there should be 51 00:01:58,130 --> 00:02:00,540 some more forestry resources coming online 52 00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:02,180 in the next two months. 53 00:02:02,180 --> 00:02:04,930 I'll also say we've got a few more economic resources 54 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:06,130 that are, that are on tap. 55 00:02:06,130 --> 00:02:08,790 So, definitely keep checkin' that out 56 00:02:08,790 --> 00:02:10,423 as the winter goes on. 57 00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:13,799 Then, onto our program tonight. 58 00:02:13,799 --> 00:02:16,300 Before I introduce Jess Phelps I'll just say 59 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:19,550 that we've been embarking on this program 60 00:02:19,550 --> 00:02:21,620 for I guess we're in our third year now, 61 00:02:21,620 --> 00:02:23,770 this Maple Development Program. 62 00:02:23,770 --> 00:02:25,660 Tonight's, tonight's presentation will be 63 00:02:25,660 --> 00:02:28,980 on Northeast Forest Land Taxes and Tax Programs. 64 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:31,100 Just to give a nice little sum up 65 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,520 of what we've been doing, we've had a number 66 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,420 of presentations and publications on forestry. 67 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:39,570 I've been doing more of the publications 68 00:02:39,570 --> 00:02:41,810 and partnering on legal resources 69 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:45,350 and business resources, and tonight we'll be focused 70 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:48,040 on taxes and we've definitely kind of now, 71 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,900 in this realm of getting into policy and programs. 72 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:52,951 In general, for the past three years 73 00:02:52,951 --> 00:02:55,850 the UVM team has been working on doing everything 74 00:02:55,850 --> 00:02:59,700 from getting people familiar with basic maple operations, 75 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:00,980 but really going to the next level 76 00:03:00,980 --> 00:03:04,160 and connecting more modern forestry practices. 77 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,220 I'm pushing on some more advanced legal 78 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:08,990 and business arrangements, and then getting 79 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:11,750 into taxes and tax policy is our real attempt 80 00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:14,460 to get the word out to possibly landowners 81 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:16,530 that aren't actually active in maple, 82 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:18,590 or they're may be considering it to make sure 83 00:03:18,590 --> 00:03:20,010 they've got the right foundations 84 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:22,850 for advancing a land development project 85 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:25,743 that is directed towards maple development. 86 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:28,330 So, that's a quick wrap-up. 87 00:03:28,330 --> 00:03:29,800 At this point I'm going to hand it over 88 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:30,790 to Jess Phelps. 89 00:03:30,790 --> 00:03:32,630 Jess and I have known each other just for a few months now, 90 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:34,510 but Jess is a practicing attorney 91 00:03:34,510 --> 00:03:37,480 and he's also an adjunct instructor 92 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,500 at Vermont Law School. 93 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:41,090 I came to know Jess through some of his 94 00:03:41,090 --> 00:03:43,180 recent publications on current use 95 00:03:43,180 --> 00:03:45,700 agricultural policy in Vermont. 96 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:48,040 That's something he's been working on more recently. 97 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,039 And we were able to snag him to start diving 98 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:53,530 in a little bit to tax policy across the Northeast. 99 00:03:53,530 --> 00:03:55,300 So, I'm gonna hand it over to Jess 100 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:57,070 and he's got a great presentation 101 00:03:57,070 --> 00:03:58,600 and hopefully, we'll have some time 102 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,570 for, for some questions and answers. 103 00:04:01,570 --> 00:04:03,430 I will say that, that we know that we don't have 104 00:04:03,430 --> 00:04:05,090 all the answers ourselves, so we are lookin' 105 00:04:05,090 --> 00:04:07,430 for some interaction and looking for people's feedback 106 00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:10,880 if they have things going on and also you know, 107 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,370 things that are unclear. 108 00:04:12,370 --> 00:04:14,913 We appreciate those comments as we go tonight. 109 00:04:15,980 --> 00:04:17,710 So, with that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hand it over 110 00:04:17,710 --> 00:04:20,433 to Jess with a nice disclaimer and Jess, 111 00:04:20,433 --> 00:04:22,790 you can just tell me to advance at any point here. 112 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:24,171 I'm gonna mute out my video, but I'll be, 113 00:04:24,171 --> 00:04:25,760 I'll be listening. 114 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,751 - Yeah, so thanks, Mark, for the introduction. 115 00:04:27,751 --> 00:04:30,560 My name is Jess Phelps and I'm an attorney 116 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:31,490 in central Vermont. 117 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:33,160 I've been working around the farmland side 118 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,130 for the past, I don't know, a while, 119 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:39,160 and Mark has brought me in to think 120 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,390 a little bit about maple and about farmland 121 00:04:41,390 --> 00:04:45,630 and about forest land in a more specific way. 122 00:04:45,630 --> 00:04:47,160 So, I'm glad to be here tonight. 123 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,040 Just, this is just a general legal disclaimer. 124 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,258 This isn't legal advice. 125 00:04:50,258 --> 00:04:52,350 No attorney/client relationship. 126 00:04:52,350 --> 00:04:53,900 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 127 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:55,828 I think that's enough on that. 128 00:04:55,828 --> 00:04:56,661 - [Mark] Okay. 129 00:04:56,661 --> 00:04:58,210 - Mark, before we go further, I think 130 00:04:58,210 --> 00:05:00,030 you had a few poll questions, just to get 131 00:05:00,030 --> 00:05:03,023 a sense of who's in the room, what states they're from. 132 00:05:04,843 --> 00:05:08,500 - [Mark] Yeah, let's pop, let's pop those up here 133 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:12,880 and you should see that pop up on your screen. 134 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,770 If it's not dead ahead on your screen 135 00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:18,323 it may show up in your, over in your chat feature. 136 00:05:19,260 --> 00:05:20,700 - So yeah, the first question is, 137 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:23,280 what state is your land located in? 138 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,540 - [Mark] All right, looks like, lookin' like 139 00:05:25,540 --> 00:05:28,593 a large Vermont contention tonight so far. 140 00:05:30,260 --> 00:05:31,093 - Okay. 141 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:34,970 Mark, we can't, at least I can't see the results 142 00:05:34,970 --> 00:05:35,803 of the poll. 143 00:05:35,803 --> 00:05:36,636 - [Mark] Oh, okay. 144 00:05:36,636 --> 00:05:38,776 Let me tell you yeah, it's over in, for folks 145 00:05:38,776 --> 00:05:41,700 check, you can check your chat feature if it pops up. 146 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:42,533 I've got it over in mine. 147 00:05:42,533 --> 00:05:45,490 Everyone's, everyone's indicated that their land 148 00:05:45,490 --> 00:05:46,980 is located in Vermont. 149 00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:47,813 - Okay. 150 00:05:47,813 --> 00:05:49,710 - [Mark] Do you want me to run the next one? 151 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:51,140 - Yeah, let's see all three questions 152 00:05:51,140 --> 00:05:53,250 just to sorta frame who's here. 153 00:05:53,250 --> 00:05:55,020 - [Mark] So, we've got another question here. 154 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:55,973 It'll pop up. 155 00:05:58,170 --> 00:05:59,938 And the question's, what type of tax abatement 156 00:05:59,938 --> 00:06:01,976 program is your forest enrolled in? 157 00:06:01,976 --> 00:06:04,690 And the options that we presented here are, 158 00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:06,700 an agricultural land program, 159 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:08,820 a forest planned program, 160 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:10,020 because there are distinctions 161 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:11,180 in most states. 162 00:06:11,180 --> 00:06:12,810 And then, if you're not enrolled, 163 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:14,253 that is an option as well. 164 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,890 - So, it looks like six have responded, eight. 165 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:22,130 And it looks like the majority are in forest land 166 00:06:22,130 --> 00:06:24,030 or actually more are not enrolled. 167 00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:26,197 So, 63%, that's interesting. 168 00:06:26,197 --> 00:06:27,997 I wanna explore that as we continue. 169 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,398 - [Mark] Okay, that's eight. 170 00:06:31,398 --> 00:06:32,231 - Wanna pop up the last one? 171 00:06:32,231 --> 00:06:34,490 - [Mark] Yeah, we've got one more question here. 172 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:35,360 And we're very excited. 173 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,970 Live polls have been around for a long time, 174 00:06:36,970 --> 00:06:39,130 but we've been trying to get them working 175 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:41,270 in Microsoft Teams and it appears that they, 176 00:06:41,270 --> 00:06:42,470 they seem to be workin'. 177 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,330 All right, the last question for the group, 178 00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:48,780 how many, and Jess, you clarify this, 179 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:51,600 but how many acres are you managing for maple? 180 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,210 I believe that we're looking specifically 181 00:06:53,210 --> 00:06:56,170 for your actual maple operations. 182 00:06:56,170 --> 00:07:00,210 So this may be less than your entire land holdings, 183 00:07:00,210 --> 00:07:01,663 just the maple portion. 184 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:05,950 And I'm not seeing any answers yet, so I don't know if. 185 00:07:05,950 --> 00:07:06,783 - I saw this one. 186 00:07:06,783 --> 00:07:08,140 It looks like six have responded. 187 00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:09,510 Some of them are responding in the chat, 188 00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:12,150 but it looks like there's an even split 189 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:14,387 between less than 25, 25 and 49, 190 00:07:14,387 --> 00:07:16,700 and between 50 and 99. 191 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:18,599 So, that's, that's helpful. 192 00:07:18,599 --> 00:07:20,099 - [Mark] Oh good, okay, great. 193 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:22,820 - All right, so now we have a sense 194 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:24,210 of who's, who's here tonight. 195 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:26,240 What our presentation tonight is gonna do is 196 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:27,880 we're gonna give a quick overview of how 197 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,280 current use programs work generally. 198 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Just, you know, what are the common attributes? 199 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,496 What do you see in these programs across the country 200 00:07:34,496 --> 00:07:37,020 and in the northern states? 201 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:38,327 We'll spend a little bit more time in Vermont, 202 00:07:38,327 --> 00:07:40,150 Maine and New York. 203 00:07:40,150 --> 00:07:42,340 And the reason we're gonna spend more time 204 00:07:42,340 --> 00:07:44,530 on that is obviously, where we're located 205 00:07:44,530 --> 00:07:46,790 they're predominant in the maple, 206 00:07:46,790 --> 00:07:49,990 or they have a large role in the maple sector. 207 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:52,410 But also, Mark has brought me in to work 208 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:55,240 on white papers exploring the tax issues 209 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,600 for these specific states. 210 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:57,940 So, they're the ones I'm most 211 00:07:57,940 --> 00:08:01,110 interested in, and learning from you all as well. 212 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:03,130 So, those are the ones we'll talk about tonight. 213 00:08:03,130 --> 00:08:05,239 And then, at the end we have a few discussion questions, 214 00:08:05,239 --> 00:08:07,580 and I'm really curious. 215 00:08:07,580 --> 00:08:09,070 You know, one of the questions we asked was 216 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:11,220 who's enrolled in current use and which program. 217 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:13,500 You know, why or why not, you're not enrolled 218 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:15,850 in current use, particularly on the Vermont side. 219 00:08:15,850 --> 00:08:17,733 Mark, you can go on to the next slide. 220 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:21,740 So, current use generally, what are we talkin' about? 221 00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:24,057 Current use is this concept in tax law 222 00:08:24,057 --> 00:08:27,420 where we are taxing something at a lower rate 223 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:29,420 than its fair market value. 224 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:33,480 It was created predominantly in the 1950s and 1970s. 225 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,300 There was this idea that there was a lot 226 00:08:35,300 --> 00:08:37,810 of sprawl going on, development was happening, 227 00:08:37,810 --> 00:08:40,110 property values were rising, and that was 228 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:42,330 having impacts across the country, 229 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:44,670 and state legislatures weighed in and tried 230 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:48,490 to change, in many states, how taxation worked. 231 00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:49,940 So there are a few goals. 232 00:08:49,940 --> 00:08:52,670 One was the lessen conversion pressure, 233 00:08:52,670 --> 00:08:54,960 the idea that hey, if you know, a farmer 234 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,560 can't make, or landowner can't make money 235 00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:59,688 to pay the taxes, they're gonna develop it, we should 236 00:08:59,688 --> 00:09:01,313 prevent that from happening. 237 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,770 Related to leaders, this concept of being fair 238 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:07,337 to the existing owners of land, essentially 239 00:09:07,337 --> 00:09:09,380 you don't want to make that farmer 240 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:11,450 or forest landowner sell because they have 241 00:09:11,450 --> 00:09:13,180 to pay the taxes. 242 00:09:13,180 --> 00:09:14,790 There's a conservation objective. 243 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:17,060 Obviously, if the land is staying in a forest 244 00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:19,440 or farmland use that has environmental 245 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:20,810 or conservation benefit. 246 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:22,950 So that, that was attractive. 247 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:24,380 And last, there was this idea of trying 248 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:26,608 to align property taxes with how community services 249 00:09:26,608 --> 00:09:28,340 are being used. 250 00:09:28,340 --> 00:09:30,410 And what that means is if you're a forest owner 251 00:09:30,410 --> 00:09:33,070 or you're a farmland owner, you're not gonna need 252 00:09:33,070 --> 00:09:34,830 as many seats in the local school 253 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:35,960 as a subdivision. 254 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,300 So you're gonna use less resources 255 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:40,370 from the community and your taxes therefore, 256 00:09:40,370 --> 00:09:42,260 can be lowered to meet that, that need. 257 00:09:42,260 --> 00:09:45,040 So, aligning taxes with what services 258 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,980 they were using in the community. 259 00:09:46,980 --> 00:09:48,740 The value proposition that came out of this 260 00:09:48,740 --> 00:09:50,810 is that you're gonna pay taxes at a use value 261 00:09:50,810 --> 00:09:52,880 and you're gonna keep the land in its current use, 262 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,980 which is typically gonna be ag land, 263 00:09:54,980 --> 00:09:57,360 forest land or conservation land. 264 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:58,996 There are a few other programs across the country 265 00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:01,250 that focus on other resource types, 266 00:10:01,250 --> 00:10:04,880 but that's, that's what most of these programs are after. 267 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,630 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 268 00:10:07,730 --> 00:10:09,990 There's a lotta variation in how these programs work 269 00:10:09,990 --> 00:10:12,450 across the country, but they primarily 270 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:15,250 have a few provisions that are common 271 00:10:15,250 --> 00:10:16,528 or things that they have to tackle. 272 00:10:16,528 --> 00:10:18,990 The first is eligibility. 273 00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:21,300 Who is entitled to get the tax breaks 274 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:24,230 or the tax savings associated with current use? 275 00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:27,620 And there are two ways that states address this. 276 00:10:27,620 --> 00:10:30,480 The first is land related criteria. 277 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,060 What land do you have to have to be enrolled 278 00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:34,080 in the program? 279 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,870 It's gonna vary from state to state, 280 00:10:35,870 --> 00:10:39,150 but most states require an acreage threshold. 281 00:10:39,150 --> 00:10:41,450 So for example, in Vermont if you wanna enroll 282 00:10:41,450 --> 00:10:43,720 in the forest land current use program, 283 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,240 you're gonna need 25 acres of forest land. 284 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,570 And there would be some other requirements 285 00:10:47,570 --> 00:10:49,189 there for eligibility. 286 00:10:49,189 --> 00:10:53,070 What happens in other states, and many states, 287 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:55,590 is they're also owner related criteria, 288 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:57,710 or criteria on eligibility that relate 289 00:10:57,710 --> 00:11:01,040 to the specific person who's operating the land. 290 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,140 This is more common on the farm side, 291 00:11:03,140 --> 00:11:05,510 but what you see in some states is you have 292 00:11:05,510 --> 00:11:07,118 to make a certain amount of income 293 00:11:07,118 --> 00:11:10,880 from farming, or qualify as a farmer 294 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,970 to receive the farmland preferential tax treatment. 295 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:16,978 Mark, go back, oh thanks. 296 00:11:16,978 --> 00:11:20,740 So, those are the two general eligibility requirements. 297 00:11:20,740 --> 00:11:22,740 Another thing that you see in states is essentially, 298 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:24,350 once you determine who's eligible 299 00:11:24,350 --> 00:11:26,700 for the program, what does tax saving 300 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:28,500 looks like, look like? 301 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:30,791 Some states basically say, we're gonna assess, 302 00:11:30,791 --> 00:11:32,630 we're just gonna tell the assessors 303 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:35,520 in the different counties or however the tax 304 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,627 is structured that they need to assess the land 305 00:11:37,627 --> 00:11:40,900 and its use value rather than its fair market value. 306 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:42,900 Other states set up differential ratios, 307 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:44,520 so they're gonna have a different tax ratio 308 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,450 that applies to a farmland use 309 00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:47,887 or a forest land use than a different, 310 00:11:47,887 --> 00:11:50,810 you know, development use. 311 00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:53,530 Vermont uses what's called the use rate. 312 00:11:53,530 --> 00:11:55,100 Essentially, in Vermont what you have is, 313 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:56,470 you've got a board that every year 314 00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:58,380 sets the tax rate for forest land 315 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:00,640 and for farmland and that's the rate 316 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,710 that you're going to, or that's the value 317 00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:04,960 of the land you're gonna be taxed on in Vermont 318 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,300 on those specific programs. 319 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:08,960 Other states have different goals 320 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,410 or different ways that they provide benefit 321 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:13,620 for different objectives. 322 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:15,270 An example would be here in that reference, 323 00:12:15,270 --> 00:12:17,330 that Maryland provides additional tax benefits 324 00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:19,160 if you're conserved in a certain way 325 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,480 with a certain entity. 326 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:21,990 So they provide additional tax break 327 00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:23,030 for additional things. 328 00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:25,167 So, if you're looking at current use 329 00:12:25,167 --> 00:12:26,460 and trying to figure out how it's 330 00:12:26,460 --> 00:12:28,160 gonna impact your tax status, 331 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,680 these are typically how jurisdictions address this. 332 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:32,770 You're just gonna have to be aware 333 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:34,760 of how your specific state is handling it. 334 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,748 So, that's one of the general provisions that you see. 335 00:12:37,748 --> 00:12:39,760 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 336 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,290 Another thing that kinda varies a little bit is 337 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:43,840 what is the length of enrollment? 338 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,050 Some states you can get preferential tax treatment 339 00:12:47,050 --> 00:12:49,500 just by simply virtue of the land use. 340 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,750 So, in Iowa for example, you can get 341 00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:54,250 ag assessment just by virtue of being a landowner. 342 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:55,390 There's nothing that you have to do. 343 00:12:55,390 --> 00:12:57,040 You're just auto enrolled. 344 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,920 Other states have a specific enrollment 345 00:12:58,920 --> 00:12:59,970 or lockout period. 346 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:01,230 So you have to stay in the program 347 00:13:01,230 --> 00:13:02,536 for a certain amount of time, 348 00:13:02,536 --> 00:13:04,889 or you're essentially in the program 349 00:13:04,889 --> 00:13:06,670 until you leave the program, 350 00:13:06,670 --> 00:13:07,760 at which point you're gonna have 351 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,299 an exit cost, and I'll talk about that in a minute. 352 00:13:10,299 --> 00:13:12,300 Generally, enrollment can be transferred 353 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,049 to a new owner without paying that cost 354 00:13:14,049 --> 00:13:16,270 is they agree to continue the enrollment. 355 00:13:16,270 --> 00:13:17,600 But, you've gotta be careful 356 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,253 on how and what the transfer process looks like. 357 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:24,150 So, the last common characteristic is essentially 358 00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:26,359 how exit from the program will be handled. 359 00:13:26,359 --> 00:13:28,297 And this is one of the most important things 360 00:13:28,297 --> 00:13:30,080 you'll need to be aware of if you're looking 361 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,370 at current use. 362 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:34,380 Some states have zero exit penalty. 363 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:36,030 Essentially, you're in, that's great. 364 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:38,400 If you wanna leave, you know, go out, go out 365 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,233 and do something. 366 00:13:39,233 --> 00:13:40,470 We're gonna give you an incentive, 367 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:42,160 but we're not gonna penalize you 368 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,200 if you decide to do something else with your land. 369 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,530 Other states impose a penalty if you develop 370 00:13:47,530 --> 00:13:49,570 your land or you leave the program tiered 371 00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:52,179 to a percentage of the property value. 372 00:13:52,179 --> 00:13:53,856 A good example of this is in Connecticut. 373 00:13:53,856 --> 00:13:55,761 Essentially, if you leave their program 374 00:13:55,761 --> 00:13:57,769 you pay 10% of the property value 375 00:13:57,769 --> 00:14:00,507 if you do it the first year you're in the program 376 00:14:00,507 --> 00:14:03,110 and it reduces out over time to essentially 377 00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:05,300 0% after 10 years. 378 00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:07,790 In Vermont the penalty is, as many of you may know, 379 00:14:07,790 --> 00:14:09,678 is 10% of the fair market value of the land 380 00:14:09,678 --> 00:14:11,490 if you develop the land. 381 00:14:11,490 --> 00:14:12,713 So, we'll talk about that a little bit more 382 00:14:12,713 --> 00:14:14,593 when I get to Vermont. 383 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:18,040 Other states don't tier it to property value, 384 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,760 but they essentially impose a tax rollback 385 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,220 if you leave the program, and they make you 386 00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:25,990 repay what you've saved from being enrolled 387 00:14:25,990 --> 00:14:27,050 in current use. 388 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:28,500 So essentially, they're gonna make you pay 389 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,150 that back if you decide to leave. 390 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:32,530 Another thing that can happen is some states 391 00:14:32,530 --> 00:14:34,160 have additional penalties that can apply 392 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,870 if you do certain things. 393 00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:37,777 A common example of these additional penalties 394 00:14:37,777 --> 00:14:40,000 is a failure to notify the state 395 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,646 that you've developed your land, 396 00:14:41,646 --> 00:14:43,415 that you've done something impermissible, 397 00:14:43,415 --> 00:14:46,570 and that'll typically have a pretty punitive impact 398 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:49,799 if you do that, so you should avoid that at all, 399 00:14:49,799 --> 00:14:51,920 at all costs. 400 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,470 Mark, can go to the next slide. 401 00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:57,680 So, what are the common issues you see 402 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,627 in current use programs across the country, 403 00:14:59,627 --> 00:15:03,100 or common things that need to be tackled? 404 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,580 There's a lot of attention from time to time 405 00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:07,290 on whether these benefits are actually 406 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:10,350 going to farmers or forest owners, 407 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:11,829 or if they're just benefiting people, 408 00:15:11,829 --> 00:15:14,430 rich folk who are trying to do things 409 00:15:14,430 --> 00:15:15,940 to stay in the program. 410 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:17,760 You see a lotta critiques in New Jersey 411 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,220 and some of the mid-Atlantic states 412 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:22,520 where people can try to game the ag enrollment system 413 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,480 to get preferential tax treatment 414 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,060 by having a few sheep on their property 415 00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:27,680 or something similar like that. 416 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,247 So, targeting the benefits to the people 417 00:15:29,247 --> 00:15:31,860 and the goals that you actually wanna obtain, 418 00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:33,713 that can be an issue. 419 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,650 There's a challenge sometimes with how 420 00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:38,170 the tax incentive actually works, 421 00:15:38,170 --> 00:15:40,220 the design it's used. 422 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:42,600 Some states in the Mid-West on the ag side 423 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,160 essentially tier the benefit for the taxation 424 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,640 to the commodity prices, and if you have 425 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,870 a really volatile market that can be 426 00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:52,569 really painful to a farmer if the tax rate 427 00:15:52,569 --> 00:15:54,810 was based on commodity crops. 428 00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:57,410 There's a lag that can happen and some people 429 00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:59,670 in Indiana and Ohio and some of the mid-western states 430 00:15:59,670 --> 00:16:02,000 got really hammered when there were high 431 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,883 crop prices and then there weren't all of a sudden. 432 00:16:06,270 --> 00:16:08,760 Some criticisms on the sort of environmental 433 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,570 side of these is the lack of permanence 434 00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:13,330 and the cost of its benefit, is society getting 435 00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:15,190 essentially a good return here? 436 00:16:15,190 --> 00:16:16,550 And then, structures. 437 00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:18,230 How do, how do you address structures? 438 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:19,880 Do you include these within the benefits 439 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,770 that are obtained or do you knock them out 440 00:16:21,770 --> 00:16:23,450 and you just get a fair land value? 441 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:25,090 So that's another sort of issue. 442 00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:27,510 It's not necessarily a criticism. 443 00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:29,210 Mark, we can go to the next slide. 444 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:32,450 So let's take the three states 445 00:16:32,450 --> 00:16:33,460 that we've got tonight. 446 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:35,250 We've got obviously, Vermont, 447 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:38,670 we've got Maine, and then we've got New York state. 448 00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:41,630 So Vermont's program was established in 1977, 449 00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:44,180 and mentioned earlier, the way the tax rates 450 00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:46,050 are established is you've got a board 451 00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:48,230 that looks at this every year and makes 452 00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:49,786 a determination on what the tax rates 453 00:16:49,786 --> 00:16:51,966 are gonna be for the forest land category 454 00:16:51,966 --> 00:16:54,560 and for the farmland category. 455 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,770 In Vermont there are currently 2.4 million acres 456 00:16:56,770 --> 00:16:59,600 of land in rural, 18,000 plus parcels. 457 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,500 That's about a third of the state. 458 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,340 And as I mentioned, ag and forest land 459 00:17:03,340 --> 00:17:04,528 are the primary categories. 460 00:17:04,528 --> 00:17:07,030 There is a category for conserved land 461 00:17:07,030 --> 00:17:08,910 and there's some sub, sub-categories 462 00:17:08,910 --> 00:17:09,743 that can apply. 463 00:17:09,743 --> 00:17:12,060 But, those are what we're gonna talk about tonight. 464 00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:12,893 Next slide. 465 00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:16,200 So in Vermont, how do you apply? 466 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,630 This is just maybe a slide more for future reference 467 00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:20,360 if the slides are available. 468 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,540 Here's essentially, there's an application fee. 469 00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:23,917 There are a few forms you have to fill out. 470 00:17:23,917 --> 00:17:25,536 And if you have multiple owners, 471 00:17:25,536 --> 00:17:27,446 you're gonna have additional forms 472 00:17:27,446 --> 00:17:31,310 that captures all of the owners of the parcel 473 00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:32,820 that's being enrolled. 474 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:34,263 You can go to the next slide. 475 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,379 In Vermont, as I mentioned, you've got 476 00:17:41,379 --> 00:17:44,220 a potential penalty if you exit the program, 477 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:47,520 and it's a 10% land use change tax 478 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,920 of, it's gonna be 10% of the fair market value 479 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,740 of the developed parcel. 480 00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:54,310 The way it works is there's a statutory contingent lien 481 00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:57,290 which sounds complicated, but basically what it means is 482 00:17:57,290 --> 00:17:58,848 that if you develop your property, 483 00:17:58,848 --> 00:18:00,480 which is construction of a road, 484 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,220 building or other structure, and can include 485 00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:05,901 in failing to abide by the forest management plan, 486 00:18:05,901 --> 00:18:07,979 if you do any of those impermissible activities, 487 00:18:07,979 --> 00:18:10,960 the state's gonna have a lien on your property 488 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,450 for 10% of the fair market value of the parcel. 489 00:18:13,450 --> 00:18:14,837 And you're eventually gonna have to pay 490 00:18:14,837 --> 00:18:17,270 that penalty, essentially to clear title 491 00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:20,120 for a future sale. 492 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,440 So that's just something to be aware of. 493 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,210 It's actually an improvement from how the program 494 00:18:23,210 --> 00:18:24,420 used to be. 495 00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:26,230 It used to actually have a physical lien 496 00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:27,553 in place, which was really painful if you 497 00:18:27,553 --> 00:18:29,537 were trying to sell or do financing. 498 00:18:29,537 --> 00:18:31,710 It's now just a floating lien that springs 499 00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:33,800 into place if you, if you do one 500 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,740 of these impermissible activities. 501 00:18:35,740 --> 00:18:37,483 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 502 00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:45,410 So what does forest land work look like? 503 00:18:45,410 --> 00:18:47,350 How does the program function? 504 00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:49,640 Again, you have the state board that sets 505 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,570 the tax rates. 506 00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:53,240 It's 152 an acre, but it's less if you're 507 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,829 a mile away from a Class One or Three road. 508 00:18:55,829 --> 00:18:58,270 What you have to do to be in the program though is, 509 00:18:58,270 --> 00:19:00,330 you have to be 25 contiguous acres 510 00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:03,770 or more than that, with 20 of those acres being forested. 511 00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:06,260 The big thing about the forest land classification is 512 00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:08,520 that you have to develop a forest management plan 513 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,990 and you have, you're gonna have a forester 514 00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:12,450 and you're gonna have that plan essentially 515 00:19:12,450 --> 00:19:14,490 lay out what you're gonna be doing to your land, 516 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:16,380 and that's gonna govern a 10 year program, 517 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,070 or a 10 year period, and you're gonna have 518 00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:19,160 to update the program. 519 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,150 And you're also gonna have to file activity reports 520 00:19:21,150 --> 00:19:22,646 annually documenting what management 521 00:19:22,646 --> 00:19:25,260 you've done on your forest parcel. 522 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:26,610 Mark, go to the next slide. 523 00:19:29,870 --> 00:19:32,160 So, one of the challenges with maple is 524 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,160 essentially, you know, you've got a program 525 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:35,840 that's focused on timber. 526 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,150 It's focused on you know, production of timber, 527 00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:41,380 and it's focused on those lands being actively used 528 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:43,840 and how does that interplay with sugar bush 529 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,920 and maple production? 530 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,278 What I've put here on the slide is a publication 531 00:19:48,278 --> 00:19:50,810 that the Vermont Department of Forest Parks and Rec 532 00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:53,950 put out in 2015, laying out management criteria 533 00:19:53,950 --> 00:19:55,167 that apply to sugar bush. 534 00:19:55,167 --> 00:19:57,800 And essentially, what it's trying to do is 535 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,010 balance sugar bush production enrollment 536 00:20:00,010 --> 00:20:04,010 within the current use category with maple production. 537 00:20:04,010 --> 00:20:05,560 So, I'm not gonna read through 538 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,460 all these requirements, but if you're looking 539 00:20:07,460 --> 00:20:10,730 to have maple production within a property 540 00:20:10,730 --> 00:20:14,150 that's enrolled in the forest land current use, 541 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:15,350 you need to be aware of what these 542 00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:16,770 management standards are and how they're 543 00:20:16,770 --> 00:20:18,550 gonna impact your operation. 544 00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:22,580 And I'd be curious when we get to the discussion segment 545 00:20:22,580 --> 00:20:24,970 if these are the reason that a lot of you 546 00:20:24,970 --> 00:20:26,720 haven't pursued enrollment in this, 547 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,063 this specific category. 548 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,550 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 549 00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:32,040 So, that was forest land. 550 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,520 The other category that may apply to maple producers 551 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,219 in Vermont is the ag land category. 552 00:20:36,219 --> 00:20:38,730 Farmland is currently, the value that you'd 553 00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:41,460 be taxed on is 405 an acre, so it's higher 554 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:43,427 than the forest land, but there may be reasons 555 00:20:43,427 --> 00:20:46,010 that it fits your operation better, 556 00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:47,890 and we'll talk about that in a little bit. 557 00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:49,811 There's a broad definition of farmland. 558 00:20:49,811 --> 00:20:52,777 If it's owned by a farmer, leased to a farmer 559 00:20:52,777 --> 00:20:55,070 and there's certain size and revenue targets 560 00:20:55,070 --> 00:20:56,290 that you have to have. 561 00:20:56,290 --> 00:20:59,570 There's a 25 acre minimum for this category as well. 562 00:20:59,570 --> 00:21:01,120 But, one of the notable things 563 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,700 about the ag category is you can have 564 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:06,880 substantially less land and still qualify 565 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,789 for current use if you make sufficient revenue. 566 00:21:09,789 --> 00:21:11,879 So, you can get down to five acres 567 00:21:11,879 --> 00:21:16,350 if you make sufficient revenue from your farming activities. 568 00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:18,140 Essentially, they're trying to let you know, 569 00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:20,849 vegetable farmers and folks like that that are operating 570 00:21:20,849 --> 00:21:24,850 intensive operations on small pieces of land 571 00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:27,140 fit this category. 572 00:21:27,140 --> 00:21:28,859 As I mentioned, there are owner requirements. 573 00:21:28,859 --> 00:21:30,971 You have to have a certain income from farming, 574 00:21:30,971 --> 00:21:34,289 and, but you can lease it that might actually work. 575 00:21:34,289 --> 00:21:37,550 And one of the things is it does include 576 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:39,420 land for producing an annual maple product 577 00:21:39,420 --> 00:21:40,840 in the eligibility criteria. 578 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,670 If you're in this program you do not have 579 00:21:44,670 --> 00:21:46,300 to have a forest management plan, but you have 580 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,240 to comply with the state's required 581 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,550 agricultural practices and meet 582 00:21:51,550 --> 00:21:54,090 certain water quality standards. 583 00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:57,530 There also may be some benefits or kind of looking 584 00:21:57,530 --> 00:21:59,090 at accessory on-farm businesses 585 00:21:59,090 --> 00:22:01,380 and whether that might fit within your operation. 586 00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:05,370 But, that's sort of an interesting and evolving category. 587 00:22:05,370 --> 00:22:07,120 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 588 00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:10,240 So, what are the differences 589 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,310 between ag and forest land in the Vermont Maple context? 590 00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:17,456 One big difference is the use tax rate. 591 00:22:17,456 --> 00:22:21,098 The tax rate that you'll be taxed on for farmland 592 00:22:21,098 --> 00:22:24,372 is higher than on the forest land side. 593 00:22:24,372 --> 00:22:27,260 But, you know, it can, there might be 594 00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:30,080 some benefits or things you might wanna look at for going 595 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:31,860 into a different category. 596 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:33,370 Again, if you're in the forest program 597 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:34,900 you have to have a forest management plan, 598 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:36,740 you don't in the ag side. 599 00:22:36,740 --> 00:22:38,660 There's size limitations that apply 600 00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:41,150 on the forest land side that can be waived 601 00:22:41,150 --> 00:22:42,570 on the ag side. 602 00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:44,410 And then there might be more flexibility 603 00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:46,909 on buildings and processing on the ag registration 604 00:22:46,909 --> 00:22:48,590 than on the forest land side. 605 00:22:48,590 --> 00:22:50,437 So, these are all factors to sort of consider 606 00:22:50,437 --> 00:22:52,980 when you're looking at participating 607 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:55,190 in current use in Vermont and you're working 608 00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:57,780 in the maple, maple universe. 609 00:22:57,780 --> 00:22:59,970 So, that's sorta Vermont's. 610 00:22:59,970 --> 00:23:02,260 Mark, if you wanna go to the next one. 611 00:23:02,260 --> 00:23:03,480 Now let's go to Maine. 612 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,810 Maine's got a program that in a lotta ways 613 00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:07,510 is pretty similar to what Vermont has, 614 00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:09,291 but there's some significant differences. 615 00:23:09,291 --> 00:23:12,898 Main's program is also goes back to the '70s. 616 00:23:12,898 --> 00:23:15,590 In some ways it's based on Main's constitution 617 00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:17,590 which has some provisions on how tax works 618 00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:18,599 in that state. 619 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:22,240 Primary categories in Maine are the Tree Growth Law 620 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,630 and the Farmland and Open Space categories, 621 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:26,240 which we'll explore a little bit tonight. 622 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,633 Go to the next slide. 623 00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:33,060 The primary one for maple in Maine 624 00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:35,419 is what's called the Tree Growth Law. 625 00:23:35,419 --> 00:23:37,880 And the Tree Growth Law is the current use program 626 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,050 that applies essentially to commercial forest land. 627 00:23:41,050 --> 00:23:43,260 There's a 10 acre requirement, 628 00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:44,580 and if you're in the program in Maine 629 00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:47,830 your taxed at use value, and it's, you're not 630 00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:49,840 gonna get, you're gonna have to kinda figure out 631 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,010 how that's gonna play out from a taxation rate 632 00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:54,868 because it's gonna depend on your municipal assessment. 633 00:23:54,868 --> 00:23:56,530 You're not gonna have like a rate 634 00:23:56,530 --> 00:24:00,210 that you're taxed upon you know, as in Vermont. 635 00:24:00,210 --> 00:24:02,330 You're actually gonna have to sorta figure out 636 00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:03,700 the assessment and what that's gonna be 637 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:04,870 on the ground. 638 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:06,520 That's how you're gonna be taxed. 639 00:24:08,260 --> 00:24:11,810 In Maine commercial harvesting must be 640 00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:13,870 the primary use of the land. 641 00:24:13,870 --> 00:24:16,540 So, it is defined to include the harvesting 642 00:24:16,540 --> 00:24:18,700 or production of crops that have commercial value 643 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:20,470 and maple syrup production qualifies. 644 00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:22,309 That's that forest crop that works with this program. 645 00:24:22,309 --> 00:24:25,730 You do have to have a forest management plan, 646 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:29,350 similar to what you have to have in Vermont. 647 00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:31,010 And there's also a withdrawal penalty. 648 00:24:31,010 --> 00:24:33,490 The withdrawal penalty is a little bit different 649 00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:35,940 than in Vermont. 650 00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:38,110 It's gonna be 30% of the margin between your valuation, 651 00:24:38,110 --> 00:24:42,040 your beneficial valuation being in current use in Maine 652 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,880 versus the fair market value of the land 653 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,230 at the time you withdraw it from the program. 654 00:24:47,230 --> 00:24:49,550 The ratio will fall from that 30% 655 00:24:49,550 --> 00:24:51,980 down over time and how long you've been enrolled 656 00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:54,500 in the program, but it can result in some 657 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,260 pretty significant penalties and you need 658 00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:57,740 to be aware of that withdrawal penalty 659 00:24:57,740 --> 00:25:01,170 when you enroll your forest land in Maine. 660 00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:02,943 So Mark, you can go to the next slide. 661 00:25:05,070 --> 00:25:08,217 Similar to Vermont, Maine has a farmland category, 662 00:25:08,217 --> 00:25:10,240 which isn't surprising. 663 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,940 This is actually an issue that I'm working 664 00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:14,040 on right now and trying to get a better understanding 665 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,610 of is whether maple production qualifies 666 00:25:16,610 --> 00:25:18,710 for the farmland tax law in Maine. 667 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:20,298 It isn't clear from the face of the statute 668 00:25:20,298 --> 00:25:21,560 whether it does. 669 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,420 Maple isn't expressly referenced, 670 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:26,470 so that's sort of an evolving research project 671 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:27,687 that I'm, I'm working with some folks in Maine 672 00:25:27,687 --> 00:25:30,120 to get more detail on. 673 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,099 In Maine, if you're gonna be enrolled in farmland 674 00:25:32,099 --> 00:25:33,930 there's a five acre minimum. 675 00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:36,063 So, that's, that's, that's lowish. 676 00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:40,720 The land must have at least $2,000 in gross income 677 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,140 annually to qualify. 678 00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:43,450 There's some flexibility though if you're 679 00:25:43,450 --> 00:25:45,369 a new farmer and you're trying to get on some land. 680 00:25:45,369 --> 00:25:48,188 Essentially, they'll let you say you're 681 00:25:48,188 --> 00:25:50,330 gonna start farming and that you're gonna make 682 00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:52,869 this $2000 in gross income and they'll 683 00:25:52,869 --> 00:25:55,550 sorta take you at face value on that. 684 00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:57,870 And if you meet that production, great, 685 00:25:57,870 --> 00:26:01,820 you're in it and you're gonna be fine going forward. 686 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:03,740 There's a repayment provision that applies 687 00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:05,850 if you don't actually meet that gross income. 688 00:26:05,850 --> 00:26:07,890 But, the idea is that if you're gonna start out farming 689 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:09,060 and you think you're gonna do this, 690 00:26:09,060 --> 00:26:11,510 they'll, they'll give you some benefit 691 00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:13,320 of the doubt to kinda come into the program 692 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,883 and see how it plays out for your operation. 693 00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:19,670 The land must be used exclusively for ag purposes. 694 00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:21,679 Again, it's not clear if maple production qualifies. 695 00:26:21,679 --> 00:26:25,100 The withdrawal penalty in Maine for farmland 696 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:26,040 is slightly different. 697 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,120 It's not as punitive as the forest, 698 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:30,590 or the Tree Growth Law is. 699 00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:32,820 It's just the marginal tax savings over 700 00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:35,820 the past five years, and there's an additional penalty 701 00:26:35,820 --> 00:26:36,753 if you fail to provide notice that you're 702 00:26:36,753 --> 00:26:38,973 converting the land or taking it out. 703 00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:43,520 Maine also, it's worth noting, has an open space category 704 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,490 that could be a possibility if you can make 705 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:47,980 the case that your land, well if it's conserved 706 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:49,460 and you can make the case that you're providing 707 00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:50,880 a public benefit, there may be 708 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,760 additional tax savings that you can accrue. 709 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,400 But, that takes some, some close attention 710 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,119 in making the case that you, you qualify. 711 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,163 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 712 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:04,950 So, our last state is New York. 713 00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:08,580 And New York again, has a Forest Tax Law, 714 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:10,238 it's enacted in 1974. 715 00:27:10,238 --> 00:27:12,999 It actually has two laws. 716 00:27:12,999 --> 00:27:17,410 There is what's called Section 480 lands. 717 00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:19,470 These are lands that were enrolled 718 00:27:19,470 --> 00:27:22,807 in a preferential tax treatment program pre 1974 719 00:27:22,807 --> 00:27:25,540 at a 15 acre minimum. 720 00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:26,640 I think there are some lands that are 721 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,360 still enrolled in that program. 722 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,330 But the Forest Tax Law that applies now 723 00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:34,750 is what's called 480A, and we'll talk 724 00:27:34,750 --> 00:27:36,770 about that tonight 'cause that's sorta the active, 725 00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:38,010 the more active program. 726 00:27:38,010 --> 00:27:40,320 But, overall you've got 3400 landowners 727 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,780 participating in 1.2 acres of forest land 728 00:27:42,780 --> 00:27:44,580 in New York state enrolled in this, 729 00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:46,223 this specific program. 730 00:27:48,420 --> 00:27:50,063 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 731 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,739 So, under that 480A program, New York Forest Tax Law, 732 00:27:54,739 --> 00:27:56,449 there's a 50 acre minimum. 733 00:27:56,449 --> 00:27:59,659 You have to have a forest management plan, common theme. 734 00:27:59,659 --> 00:28:01,617 There's also withdrawal penalty, 735 00:28:01,617 --> 00:28:04,430 and that's 2.5x or times the tax savings, 736 00:28:04,430 --> 00:28:05,969 plus interest if you take it out. 737 00:28:05,969 --> 00:28:09,170 An interesting thing about New York's program is 738 00:28:09,170 --> 00:28:11,880 that there's a stumpage/yield tax on the wood 739 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,300 that's enrolled in the program of 6%. 740 00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:16,550 So, if you're harvesting on land that's enrolled 741 00:28:16,550 --> 00:28:18,310 in New York's Forest Tax Law, you're actually 742 00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:20,400 gonna have to pay a stumpage tax if you're, 743 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,643 if you're harvesting on that, that tract. 744 00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:26,290 New York's program requires a rolling 10 year commitment. 745 00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:28,020 So every year you get the tax savings 746 00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:28,890 that you're in it. 747 00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:30,530 There's 10 more years that you have to comply 748 00:28:30,530 --> 00:28:34,480 with the program's requirements to avoid paying 749 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,403 a rollback fee. 750 00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:38,020 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 751 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,110 And New York, maybe not surprisingly, 752 00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:43,850 has the most complicated formula for determining 753 00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:46,800 what the tax savings is gonna be. 754 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,280 It's essentially, it's equal to 20% 755 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,417 of the fair market value of the land 756 00:28:50,417 --> 00:28:54,010 or taking the equalization rate for the town 757 00:28:54,010 --> 00:28:55,700 and applying it by 40 an acre 758 00:28:56,608 --> 00:28:58,350 and then subtracting it from the assessment if less. 759 00:28:58,350 --> 00:29:00,620 I know that sounds like a lot and it is, 760 00:29:00,620 --> 00:29:03,390 so I gave a hypothetical example below. 761 00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:07,320 You can sorta see what the 80% of the 120 a acre 762 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,150 in my value parcel down below, A equals out to. 763 00:29:11,150 --> 00:29:12,850 And you can see what the equalization rate 764 00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:14,220 applies to and what that would be 765 00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:15,970 as far as tax savings. 766 00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:17,970 New York's program is, is sort of hard 767 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,350 to figure out what your taxes are gonna be 768 00:29:20,350 --> 00:29:21,930 in advance, at least in my opinion, 769 00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:23,190 looking at it from afar. 770 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:26,430 There're also, I've read some sort of you know, 771 00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:28,590 literature out there or blog posts out there 772 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:31,160 about people not being thrilled 773 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,190 with how this, how assessors in local communities 774 00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:35,950 apply the New York Forest Tax Law 775 00:29:35,950 --> 00:29:37,940 and you know, what happens when you enroll 776 00:29:37,940 --> 00:29:40,640 your program in you know, the tax law, 777 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,230 did it switch you into a different category 778 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:43,437 to mitigate your tax savings? 779 00:29:43,437 --> 00:29:45,940 I don't have experience working with this program 780 00:29:45,940 --> 00:29:47,170 to know if that's true or not. 781 00:29:47,170 --> 00:29:49,620 But, I just, looking at the how these are valued 782 00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:52,930 at I can see that it can be a little bit harder 783 00:29:52,930 --> 00:29:54,130 or more challenging to potentially 784 00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:56,547 work with than in Vermont where we have 785 00:29:56,547 --> 00:29:59,460 the two values that are laid out by the use board. 786 00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:01,200 So Mark, you can go to the next slide. 787 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,527 So, if you're in the forest, the New York Forest Law, 788 00:30:05,527 --> 00:30:10,270 one of the things to be aware of is sort of how maple 789 00:30:10,270 --> 00:30:11,860 fits within that category. 790 00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:14,220 It's considered to be a compatible forest use, 791 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,640 but they don't let it be the primary use. 792 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,120 Primary use under that law has to be timber production. 793 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,410 I highlighted that under no circumstances 794 00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:24,150 can an over mature sugar bush be retained 795 00:30:24,150 --> 00:30:25,747 as such and comply with the program. 796 00:30:25,747 --> 00:30:28,848 Again, it sorta showcases that tension 797 00:30:28,848 --> 00:30:31,128 between what the current use programs 798 00:30:31,128 --> 00:30:33,856 and various states designed to promote 799 00:30:33,856 --> 00:30:37,387 commercial timber production you know, require 800 00:30:37,387 --> 00:30:39,680 and how maple sorta fits within this, 801 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,820 or doesn't fit necessarily as well. 802 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:46,200 So, that is something to be aware of if you're looking 803 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,650 to do this in New York state. 804 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:50,400 So Mark, you can go to the next slide. 805 00:30:52,370 --> 00:30:54,300 The other category in New York, again, 806 00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:56,827 we're sorta ping ponging between forest land 807 00:30:56,827 --> 00:30:59,598 and farmland, is the ag assessment. 808 00:30:59,598 --> 00:31:01,540 This goes back to 1971. 809 00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:03,260 There's a seven acre minimum, 810 00:31:03,260 --> 00:31:05,998 so fairly smaller requirement. 811 00:31:05,998 --> 00:31:08,830 Generally, you're gonna get five to eight year enrollment. 812 00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:10,710 It depends a little bit if you're in what's called 813 00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:12,775 an ag district within New York state. 814 00:31:12,775 --> 00:31:14,780 You're gonna have to be in the program 815 00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:16,627 for less time if you're in an ag district. 816 00:31:16,627 --> 00:31:19,160 It expressly includes sugar bush 817 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,540 that can be enrolled in an ag assessment parcel 818 00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:22,543 in New York state. 819 00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:25,900 There is a gross annual income requirement, 820 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,740 10%, $10,000 of the preceding two years. 821 00:31:29,740 --> 00:31:33,260 So this can be a challenge as far as starting up 822 00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:35,610 your operation, but you know, once you get through 823 00:31:35,610 --> 00:31:37,330 those first couple of years and can show 824 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:41,160 your income, you're, you're gonna be okay on that front. 825 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,200 So that's helpful. 826 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,140 They don't have a similar program than Maine, 827 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:47,220 where you can sort of get a pre blessing 828 00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:49,260 of your program or your operations, 829 00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:51,063 which probably would be helpful. 830 00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:54,480 There's potential eligibility not under current use 831 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,290 or ag assessment in New York state 832 00:31:56,290 --> 00:31:58,280 for certain ag structures to be taxed 833 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,280 at a lower rate for the first 10 years of operations. 834 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,868 So that might be helpful if you're, you're using 835 00:32:03,868 --> 00:32:06,140 buildings in that way. 836 00:32:06,140 --> 00:32:07,148 And there's a withdrawal penalty, 837 00:32:07,148 --> 00:32:08,670 like every other program. 838 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:10,250 Five years of recapture if you fail 839 00:32:10,250 --> 00:32:12,129 to stay in the program for the specified, 840 00:32:12,129 --> 00:32:14,530 specified period of time. 841 00:32:14,530 --> 00:32:16,863 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 842 00:32:20,550 --> 00:32:22,760 So, what I did on this slide, and I'm not 843 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,740 gonna go through it in great detail or depth 844 00:32:24,740 --> 00:32:26,710 'cause I've kinda been covering it, but you can see 845 00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:29,137 how the Vermont program, the Maine program 846 00:32:29,137 --> 00:32:31,920 and the New York programs compare out 847 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,890 and how they, they work in these jurisdictions. 848 00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:37,920 You can see minimum acreage size is you know, 849 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,088 a little bit variation. 850 00:32:39,088 --> 00:32:41,530 Note there is the asterisk of Vermont farmland, 851 00:32:41,530 --> 00:32:43,380 that you can come down to five acres 852 00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:45,750 if you have sufficient income 853 00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:47,600 and are a qualified farmer. 854 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,705 And then you can see how tax rates are calculated. 855 00:32:49,705 --> 00:32:53,890 Again, massively different ways that the states 856 00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:57,097 determine how to benefit farmers and forest land owners. 857 00:32:57,097 --> 00:32:59,110 So, you're gonna have to do a little bit of work 858 00:32:59,110 --> 00:33:01,810 to see how that, that actually pencils out for you 859 00:33:01,810 --> 00:33:06,380 and your operation and your specific, specific context. 860 00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:08,510 Enrollment period, you know, you've got 861 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:09,950 a rolling period and most of these 862 00:33:09,950 --> 00:33:11,343 are perpetual enrollment. 863 00:33:12,547 --> 00:33:14,470 So you're gonna be in it essentially for bet 864 00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:16,720 or you're gonna pay the withdrawal penalty, 865 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,120 which is again, varies a bit. 866 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,017 You've got Vermont at 10% of fair market value, 867 00:33:21,017 --> 00:33:24,870 and a little bit more complicated than the other states. 868 00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:27,620 And you know, some focusing on trying 869 00:33:27,620 --> 00:33:29,690 to recapture the tax benefit that they gave you 870 00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:31,580 by being enrolled in the program. 871 00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:33,547 So there is some variability there as well. 872 00:33:33,547 --> 00:33:36,940 Mark, you can go to the next slide. 873 00:33:36,940 --> 00:33:38,759 So, to wrap this up again. 874 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:40,510 I've spent the last three or four months 875 00:33:40,510 --> 00:33:42,690 and again, I come at it from a farmland perspective, 876 00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:44,540 and have been looking at maple 877 00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:46,550 and looking at how these forest land programs 878 00:33:46,550 --> 00:33:49,800 work and more specific context. 879 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,170 But, I'm really curious you know, 880 00:33:52,170 --> 00:33:54,980 what challenges does current use cause your operation? 881 00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:56,888 Why or why are you not in the program? 882 00:33:56,888 --> 00:33:58,430 Are there issues with buildings 883 00:33:58,430 --> 00:34:00,090 and sugar houses qualifying? 884 00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:01,380 How do those work? 885 00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:02,319 Do they not work? 886 00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:05,810 Are you worried about processing retail operations? 887 00:34:05,810 --> 00:34:07,190 Are those things that have prevented you 888 00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:09,773 from being enrolled or given you concern? 889 00:34:10,770 --> 00:34:11,998 How well do you think current use works 890 00:34:11,998 --> 00:34:14,820 for your, for maple production in your state? 891 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:16,340 Is it doing a good job? 892 00:34:16,340 --> 00:34:17,190 Is it well aligned? 893 00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:20,486 Does the program have gaps that need to be addressed? 894 00:34:20,486 --> 00:34:22,390 And are there changes that you'd like to see 895 00:34:22,390 --> 00:34:23,900 to your state's current use program 896 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:26,680 to make it work better for maple producers? 897 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,410 And again, as Mark mentioned, looking at tax policy 898 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:32,020 a little bit, it would help us in our thinking 899 00:34:32,020 --> 00:34:34,217 about kind of how current use programs work 900 00:34:34,217 --> 00:34:35,720 for maple going forward. 901 00:34:35,720 --> 00:34:37,758 So, can answer any questions, 902 00:34:37,758 --> 00:34:40,638 get your opinion on some of these discussion questions, 903 00:34:40,638 --> 00:34:44,370 but that is just the whirlwind view 904 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:47,793 of how current use works in Vermont, New York, and Maine. 905 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,133 - That's great, Jess. 906 00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:55,710 Nice echo there. 907 00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:59,590 I'm gonna allow everyone's mic to be unmuted. 908 00:35:00,550 --> 00:35:02,570 So, you'll still have to manually unmute 909 00:35:02,570 --> 00:35:04,717 your mic if you wanna ask questions. 910 00:35:04,717 --> 00:35:08,240 But, you should be able to do that and if for some reason 911 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,298 you're not, I won't hear you, so just write 912 00:35:10,298 --> 00:35:11,810 something in the chat. 913 00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:13,250 Definitely you feel free to use the chat. 914 00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:15,787 I have a couple of questions I'm gonna hold off though. 915 00:35:15,787 --> 00:35:19,063 I can always ask later. 916 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:21,043 Thanks a lot, Jess. 917 00:35:21,043 --> 00:35:22,257 Thanks for giving that nice overview 918 00:35:22,257 --> 00:35:24,060 and some nice themes even though 919 00:35:24,060 --> 00:35:25,770 a little different from state to state. 920 00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:26,760 We'd love to hear what people, 921 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:27,730 you know, people have to say, 922 00:35:27,730 --> 00:35:30,460 questions you've got for Jess on the programs 923 00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:33,703 or the concept of current use at large. 924 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,250 - [Participant] So, this is Dave, Mark. 925 00:35:39,250 --> 00:35:43,190 And we are, we're in the process 926 00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:46,060 of building a sugar house in Vermont 927 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:51,060 and I think if I read the rules right, 928 00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:56,260 this is an income, it's a business for us, 929 00:35:56,420 --> 00:35:58,370 but it's not our primary business, 930 00:35:58,370 --> 00:36:03,370 so we do not generate 50% of our income from ag. 931 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,130 Therefore, I think that the sugar house 932 00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:11,009 is not gonna get any deduction, 933 00:36:11,009 --> 00:36:13,717 they're gonna whack us for full value of it. 934 00:36:13,717 --> 00:36:17,296 And I think that would be, so many of the sugar makers 935 00:36:17,296 --> 00:36:19,468 in Vermont are not full-timers, 936 00:36:19,468 --> 00:36:23,356 they're part-time and I think that it would be 937 00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:27,950 really beneficial to have that part 938 00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:30,803 of the law reviewed. 939 00:36:32,770 --> 00:36:34,910 You know, as long as we're claiming income 940 00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:36,810 as a sugar maker we oughta qualify 941 00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:41,140 to have some sort of a break on the sugar house. 942 00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:42,860 That's just my, my comment. 943 00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:45,450 The other anecdotally is pretty interesting. 944 00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:48,266 I've heard a lot of comments of sugar makers 945 00:36:48,266 --> 00:36:52,460 that go into the ag land program 946 00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:55,410 versus the forestry because they don't have 947 00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:57,886 to do a forest management plan with ag. 948 00:36:57,886 --> 00:37:02,030 However, if you look at the assessed value 949 00:37:02,030 --> 00:37:05,236 under current use, they're payin' three times 950 00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:07,650 as much per acre. 951 00:37:07,650 --> 00:37:12,348 So, it, I just shake my head and say, you know, 952 00:37:12,348 --> 00:37:15,023 it's a good investment, hire a forester. 953 00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:17,670 - Yeah, and I was gonna say, if their goal is 954 00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:19,270 to save money on that I mean, yeah, 955 00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:22,010 I think you're right, you know, the rate there, 956 00:37:22,010 --> 00:37:23,238 it doesn't really pencil out. 957 00:37:23,238 --> 00:37:27,660 But, thank you for the perspective on sugar, sugar houses. 958 00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:28,883 You know, that's, that's helpful to know 959 00:37:28,883 --> 00:37:30,560 that that is a concern, particularly 960 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,369 on the revenue generation side and the part-time 961 00:37:32,369 --> 00:37:35,663 nature of a lot of producers and how that fits in. 962 00:37:36,850 --> 00:37:39,590 - Yeah, Jess, I wanna maybe kinda add to that, 963 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:41,060 that comment, just a question, all right. 964 00:37:41,060 --> 00:37:42,639 We've got a couple other questions comin' 965 00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:43,540 which is great. 966 00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:47,387 But on that note about income eligibility in Vermont, 967 00:37:47,387 --> 00:37:52,270 is the same income eligibility criteria 968 00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:54,550 there for the ag program as well 969 00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:56,603 as that forest determination? 970 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,990 - The income issue is on the ag side. 971 00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:04,750 So that, I think it was the qualified ag structure. 972 00:38:04,750 --> 00:38:08,355 - So, specific to the structure itself. 973 00:38:08,355 --> 00:38:11,760 - Well, yeah, I mean, it's an ag building 974 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,100 and you have to you know, if your ag building's 975 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:15,930 gonna be in the ag current use you've gotta be 976 00:38:15,930 --> 00:38:17,900 a farmer and that's gonna have I think 977 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:20,690 the incomes threshold of 50% of your income from farming. 978 00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:23,020 So, a lot of people are not gonna be able to meet that. 979 00:38:23,020 --> 00:38:23,853 - Thank you. 980 00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:26,820 I see Bob, Bobby's got a question here 981 00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:30,390 and yeah, unmute yourself and you're welcome to speak. 982 00:38:30,390 --> 00:38:32,180 - [Participant] Yeah, just a question. 983 00:38:32,180 --> 00:38:34,470 I'm actually currently I don't own property 984 00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:37,060 in Vermont, but currently looking at property 985 00:38:37,060 --> 00:38:39,167 in Vermont and as I look at these properties, 986 00:38:39,167 --> 00:38:41,700 you know, I'm looking at ones that are enrolled 987 00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:46,383 in the current use tax and a question about you know, 988 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,610 getting some of these out of the current use tax, 989 00:38:50,610 --> 00:38:54,240 you know, some of them have areas for homes, 990 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,500 the two acres, but if I wanna pull more out 991 00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:01,080 of the current use tax could I pull you know, 992 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,130 five acres out and just pay the penalty 993 00:39:04,130 --> 00:39:06,330 on those five acres or do I pay the penalty 994 00:39:06,330 --> 00:39:10,430 on the entire, entire fair market value 995 00:39:10,430 --> 00:39:14,937 of the property and then re-enroll a portion, 996 00:39:14,937 --> 00:39:19,080 you know, the 25 plus acres. 997 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,163 How would that work? 998 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,300 - Yeah, that's a good question. 999 00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:26,220 I don't know off hand how a partial enrollment 1000 00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:28,320 or termination works, if you can just take 1001 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,153 a few acres out. 1002 00:39:29,153 --> 00:39:31,050 I've never run into that, which is 1003 00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:32,670 sorta surprising actually. 1004 00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:34,950 But if you wanna email me offline I'll look 1005 00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:36,070 into it quick and get back to you. 1006 00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:38,170 I'm sure there's a really pretty straightforward 1007 00:39:38,170 --> 00:39:39,650 answer to it, it's just not a circumstance 1008 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:41,540 I've actually faced. 1009 00:39:41,540 --> 00:39:42,640 - [Participant] Okay, thank you. 1010 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:43,473 - Yeah. 1011 00:39:43,473 --> 00:39:45,738 - Jess, you can pull out partial. 1012 00:39:45,738 --> 00:39:49,420 - I didn't wanna sort of speculate. 1013 00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:51,830 I haven't run into it, but that wouldn't be logical 1014 00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:54,203 that you could take out a specific acreage. 1015 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,990 - You have to have at least a minimum of two acres 1016 00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:59,150 for a house site. 1017 00:39:59,150 --> 00:40:00,200 - Yep. 1018 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,490 - They don't have the same criteria 1019 00:40:02,490 --> 00:40:05,680 for a barn, but for a house it's two acres 1020 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:06,880 and you could withdraw that. 1021 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,080 They're gonna whack you pretty good with a penalty. 1022 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,383 - Yeah, land use change tax. 1023 00:40:14,637 --> 00:40:16,870 - Thank you, thank you for the input. 1024 00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:17,703 Appreciate it. 1025 00:40:18,830 --> 00:40:20,340 - Maybe another, I'm gonna keep doin' 1026 00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:23,260 the followup questions for a while here. 1027 00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:25,600 In that situation too, Bob also mentioned 1028 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,080 he was looking for land. 1029 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,240 So, this is the idea of kind of a new acquisition 1030 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:34,240 and again, just to clarify, so if a current property owner 1031 00:40:35,020 --> 00:40:37,633 has the property in current use, 1032 00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:40,920 is that property locked in then for current use 1033 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,520 with a new ownership or how does that, are there 1034 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,180 changes that occur just strictly 1035 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:48,040 on the nature of a new owner 1036 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,640 coming in to ownership of the property, 1037 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,240 as it relates to withdrawals, penalties 1038 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:55,510 and/or kind of carry overs? 1039 00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:57,203 - So, you can transfer the enrollments 1040 00:40:57,203 --> 00:40:59,110 to a new owner and the new owner 1041 00:40:59,110 --> 00:41:01,140 can keep it enrolled in the program. 1042 00:41:01,140 --> 00:41:02,840 But, if it's gonna come out you're gonna pay 1043 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,060 the land use change tax. 1044 00:41:04,060 --> 00:41:05,590 So, you're gonna have to have an understanding 1045 00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:07,592 of sorta what the enrollment's gonna look like 1046 00:41:07,592 --> 00:41:10,162 at that specific time in history. 1047 00:41:10,162 --> 00:41:12,380 So, I mean you can transfer, you've just 1048 00:41:12,380 --> 00:41:14,120 gotta be sort of aware what that's gonna look like 1049 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,710 on the ground. 1050 00:41:15,710 --> 00:41:16,543 - Got it. 1051 00:41:16,543 --> 00:41:17,602 And so, the new owner would then be the one 1052 00:41:17,602 --> 00:41:19,311 liable for the withdrawal. 1053 00:41:19,311 --> 00:41:21,160 - Exactly, once you sell the property 1054 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:22,841 you're not gonna have the liability 1055 00:41:22,841 --> 00:41:24,410 associated with the enrollment 1056 00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:25,620 because you're no longer on the land 1057 00:41:25,620 --> 00:41:28,070 and you're not you know, in a relationship 1058 00:41:28,070 --> 00:41:29,820 with the state at that point. 1059 00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:31,657 But, the new owner, if they, if they take it out 1060 00:41:31,657 --> 00:41:33,320 in the future they're gonna be subject 1061 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,463 to the land use change tax. 1062 00:41:36,930 --> 00:41:39,410 - [Participant] Does the 10 year clock in Vermont, 1063 00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:41,220 does the 10 year clock start again 1064 00:41:41,220 --> 00:41:43,983 when you purchase the property and it transfers? 1065 00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:48,020 - So, in Vermont there isn't a 10 year clock. 1066 00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:50,320 Once you're in the program you're in the program. 1067 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,470 - [Participant] Oh, I'm sorry, okay. 1068 00:41:51,470 --> 00:41:53,700 - Yeah, in New York you've got a 10 year clock. 1069 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,214 So, the 10 year clock, it's gonna keep goin'. 1070 00:41:56,214 --> 00:42:00,050 So it isn't gonna, the real estate transfer 1071 00:42:00,050 --> 00:42:01,430 is not gonna have an impact. 1072 00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:03,080 But Vermont, you're in you're in. 1073 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,067 - [Participant] Hey Mark, this is Mark. 1074 00:42:06,067 --> 00:42:08,238 It looks like there might be a question 1075 00:42:08,238 --> 00:42:10,853 in the chat from John. 1076 00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:15,143 - Thanks Mark, yep. 1077 00:42:16,728 --> 00:42:18,210 I can read that off. 1078 00:42:18,210 --> 00:42:21,650 John asks, curious if you're allowed to do 1079 00:42:21,650 --> 00:42:25,240 cutting in the sugar woods and if it's, sorry, 1080 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:26,830 curious if you're allowed to do cutting 1081 00:42:26,830 --> 00:42:29,280 in the sugar woods if it's enrolled 1082 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,943 in agriculture program rather than the forestry program. 1083 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,920 And John, I'll just ask to clarify if you, 1084 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,140 are you thinking about just thinning 1085 00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,026 or are you actually talking about like a bonafide 1086 00:42:41,026 --> 00:42:45,793 timber harvest within the sugar woods themselves? 1087 00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:48,389 Might be some typing here, so. 1088 00:42:48,389 --> 00:42:53,070 We'll wait a second on that. 1089 00:42:53,070 --> 00:42:55,640 Okay, and John clarified, he is, he is referring 1090 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,100 to actual timber harvesting within the sugar woods, 1091 00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:01,653 if you're within the agricultural program. 1092 00:43:04,207 --> 00:43:05,560 - I don't know the answer in Vermont. 1093 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,250 I do know in New York state that you can harvest, 1094 00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:14,060 but there are sort of specific harvest parameters 1095 00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:17,690 that apply and sorta how much of it, how much timber 1096 00:43:17,690 --> 00:43:20,020 you can pull from the property and still 1097 00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:21,980 have that work. 1098 00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:24,960 So, I don't know the answer in Vermont 1099 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,230 on how much harvesting you can do on the ag side. 1100 00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:30,560 I don't necessarily see a huge issue 1101 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,473 or why that would be a concern, but. 1102 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,430 - [Participant] Yeah, this is Mark again. 1103 00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:39,679 I'd say given that there's no forest management plan 1104 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:44,100 required that that would be, that would be acceptable. 1105 00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:46,920 Unless of course, it ran afoul of some 1106 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,093 of the wraps or you know, water quality issues, 1107 00:43:51,982 --> 00:43:55,540 you know, which is not directly related 1108 00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:59,180 to the harvest itself, just the, the quality 1109 00:43:59,180 --> 00:44:00,630 of the harvesting being done. 1110 00:44:01,730 --> 00:44:03,159 - I'm writing these questions down, too 1111 00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:04,700 and feel free to keep 'em comin' 1112 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:06,380 'cause this is something that Jess and I 1113 00:44:06,380 --> 00:44:09,350 can, we can maybe even develop like a FAQs 1114 00:44:09,350 --> 00:44:11,130 from some questions that come up tonight 1115 00:44:11,130 --> 00:44:13,280 as we're putting together the white papers. 1116 00:44:14,930 --> 00:44:17,630 Let's see, a comment from, from Dave here. 1117 00:44:17,630 --> 00:44:20,250 Thanks for adding this. 1118 00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:22,210 Comment, as a new owner in Vermont has 30 days 1119 00:44:22,210 --> 00:44:23,820 after closing to notify the state 1120 00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:26,150 and to submit a new plan. 1121 00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:28,780 The lien runs with the land and not the owner. 1122 00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:31,950 So failure to submit can be considered a violation 1123 00:44:31,950 --> 00:44:33,573 subject to a tax penalty. 1124 00:44:34,413 --> 00:44:37,760 - Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear on that earlier. 1125 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,020 - Yeah, good reminder that new, new owners need 1126 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:41,593 to be aware of this for sure. 1127 00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:46,550 Jess, one question I'd like to ask and I, 1128 00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:48,590 this, I know you may not have the answer 1129 00:44:48,590 --> 00:44:50,763 necessarily for maple because we've been 1130 00:44:50,763 --> 00:44:53,004 I think we're sort of dancing around 1131 00:44:53,004 --> 00:44:56,650 the processing question and the commercial building 1132 00:44:56,650 --> 00:44:59,340 type questions, but I am just curious 1133 00:44:59,340 --> 00:45:01,890 whether you know about maple or in your work 1134 00:45:01,890 --> 00:45:04,483 with agricultural producers if you could provide 1135 00:45:04,483 --> 00:45:09,483 any, any context on how let's say farmers 1136 00:45:09,553 --> 00:45:12,250 or winer user, things of that nature, 1137 00:45:12,250 --> 00:45:15,470 have been handled when it comes to the idea 1138 00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:16,720 of having a building. 1139 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:19,720 I think you used the term accessory uses 1140 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:21,492 if I've got that right. 1141 00:45:21,492 --> 00:45:23,620 I don't know if that's the right, right usage. 1142 00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:25,560 But, when someone moves into that world 1143 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,000 of possibly producing a commercial good, 1144 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,010 what are some of the factors that are, 1145 00:45:30,010 --> 00:45:31,310 that are, that do come up? 1146 00:45:32,350 --> 00:45:34,160 - Yeah, I mean that's one of the hot button issues 1147 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,820 in sorta the ag world right now is how these 1148 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:40,030 accessory on-farm businesses work from both 1149 00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:42,910 a sort of land use perspective, and I mean 1150 00:45:42,910 --> 00:45:45,890 by that, local zoning and Act 250 state farmland use 1151 00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:47,830 permitting when the start moving 1152 00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:52,410 from active ag production into more value add stuff. 1153 00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:54,723 So essentially, if they start taking the things 1154 00:45:54,723 --> 00:45:55,962 that they're producing on the farm 1155 00:45:55,962 --> 00:45:58,650 and they start making products out of it. 1156 00:45:58,650 --> 00:46:01,520 And what ends up happening is you have to look 1157 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,760 at the, you have to look at the different laws 1158 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,720 that apply, so you know, Act 143 is the new 1159 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:08,640 state law that came in effect a couple years ago 1160 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,062 to try to prevent local governments 1161 00:46:11,062 --> 00:46:13,740 from regulating local farm stands 1162 00:46:13,740 --> 00:46:15,670 that are located on a farm. 1163 00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:18,500 And you know, Act 250, these typically have 1164 00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,849 definitions or thresholds and a certain amount 1165 00:46:20,849 --> 00:46:23,590 of the product is being sold 1166 00:46:23,590 --> 00:46:25,620 from those facilities has to be 1167 00:46:25,620 --> 00:46:28,400 from products raised on the farm. 1168 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,540 The application of these laws is typically 1169 00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:33,150 gonna look at what is the mix of things 1170 00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:36,400 that is being sold on that specific farm? 1171 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,940 So that, that's again, I mean you can see 1172 00:46:38,940 --> 00:46:40,600 that applying to maple as well. 1173 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,020 I mean, if you're selling maple from a facility, 1174 00:46:44,020 --> 00:46:48,350 could some of these same, same kind of triggers 1175 00:46:48,350 --> 00:46:51,720 the line between you know, farming 1176 00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:54,430 and commercial businesses. 1177 00:46:54,430 --> 00:46:57,382 These are tensions that we're startin' to see pop up, 1178 00:46:57,382 --> 00:46:59,970 particularly as more landowners are trying 1179 00:46:59,970 --> 00:47:02,143 to do more on their specific land holdings. 1180 00:47:03,340 --> 00:47:05,120 - No, that's good. 1181 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,337 It's just, it's got me thinking in the business, 1182 00:47:08,337 --> 00:47:10,230 coaching and business planning 1183 00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:12,560 that I participate in, we certainly see 1184 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,480 a growing number of maple producers 1185 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,300 that either they have capacity to process 1186 00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:20,780 more sap, so they're buying sap from other bruisers 1187 00:47:20,780 --> 00:47:22,770 which I think is something to watch, 1188 00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:24,270 because it's in that threshold now 1189 00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:26,357 of bringing product from somebody else's property, 1190 00:47:26,357 --> 00:47:28,046 putting it through your facility 1191 00:47:28,046 --> 00:47:32,990 and then slightly differently, there are producers 1192 00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:35,800 and we'll say marketers as well, that have created 1193 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,630 strong brands with strong demand 1194 00:47:37,630 --> 00:47:39,540 that's exceeded the amount of product 1195 00:47:39,540 --> 00:47:41,250 they can produce themselves. 1196 00:47:41,250 --> 00:47:43,476 And so, in some cases they're buying in syrup 1197 00:47:43,476 --> 00:47:46,930 simply from neighbors, but buying in, buying in quantities 1198 00:47:46,930 --> 00:47:49,810 and finished syrup and then re-selling them 1199 00:47:49,810 --> 00:47:51,770 under their own brand, because they've got 1200 00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:54,670 customers that want their brand. 1201 00:47:54,670 --> 00:47:56,760 So, I'll just say those are things I think 1202 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,825 we'll probably wanna keep an eye on in the near 1203 00:47:58,825 --> 00:48:01,590 several years as these businesses 1204 00:48:01,590 --> 00:48:03,300 start to do some more of these transactions 1205 00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:06,610 between each other as it relates to the, to the current 1206 00:48:06,610 --> 00:48:08,373 use designations and eligibility. 1207 00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:12,129 - [Participant] Hey Jess, this is Mark again. 1208 00:48:12,129 --> 00:48:14,800 I'm curious if you've come across any programs 1209 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,930 that have looked at something other than forestry 1210 00:48:18,930 --> 00:48:22,333 and ag, anything like ecosystem services. 1211 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,140 Have you seen any movement towards valuing 1212 00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:31,180 carbon either in the ag or the forestry side, 1213 00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:33,003 as a, as a product? 1214 00:48:34,070 --> 00:48:37,570 - Not specifically in forest land or farmland. 1215 00:48:37,570 --> 00:48:41,030 The closest that I think I've seen a program 1216 00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:43,140 get to doing what you're describing is 1217 00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:46,050 probably the open space category in Maine 1218 00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:49,330 where they've got a certain number of acres 1219 00:48:49,330 --> 00:48:52,100 that qualify for that category on annual, 1220 00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:54,530 well, yeah on a annual basis. 1221 00:48:54,530 --> 00:48:56,470 I don't know what the acreage cap is. 1222 00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:58,240 But, they have a specific metric 1223 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:00,770 for looking at the different benefits 1224 00:49:00,770 --> 00:49:02,410 that the lands provide. 1225 00:49:02,410 --> 00:49:05,160 So they look at, is the land conserved? 1226 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:06,340 Is it public accessed? 1227 00:49:06,340 --> 00:49:08,760 And they sort of have a matrix of determining 1228 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,330 what or how these lands score. 1229 00:49:11,330 --> 00:49:12,730 And then, depending on how they score, 1230 00:49:12,730 --> 00:49:15,240 they try to tailor the scoring to the tax benefit 1231 00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:16,630 or the tax break. 1232 00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:18,930 So, their open space category is trying 1233 00:49:18,930 --> 00:49:20,580 to do a little bit of what you're talking about. 1234 00:49:20,580 --> 00:49:23,220 But, that's the only program that I've seen 1235 00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:24,799 that's tried to sort of go beyond 1236 00:49:24,799 --> 00:49:29,010 kinda the classic farmland/forest land 1237 00:49:29,010 --> 00:49:30,220 sort of metric. 1238 00:49:30,220 --> 00:49:32,360 It is interesting to think about whether states 1239 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,095 are gonna start trying to use these programs 1240 00:49:34,095 --> 00:49:37,710 to require more and whether they might try 1241 00:49:37,710 --> 00:49:40,200 to do some of those things within their 1242 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,890 current use statutes. 1243 00:49:41,890 --> 00:49:43,580 And you know, as there's more pressure 1244 00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:45,999 on these lands, are they gonna raise 1245 00:49:45,999 --> 00:49:49,000 the kind of tax benefits that they're 1246 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:49,960 providing the farmers? 1247 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,297 Will they use this as a mechanism to farmers 1248 00:49:52,297 --> 00:49:54,200 and to forest land owners? 1249 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,200 And will they try to require more in exchange? 1250 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,910 Will this be a lever they use to try to get 1251 00:49:58,910 --> 00:50:00,110 some of the land use objectives 1252 00:50:00,110 --> 00:50:02,750 that this might be a good way to get at? 1253 00:50:02,750 --> 00:50:04,527 Because a lotta these programs began, 1254 00:50:04,527 --> 00:50:06,868 created in the '70s. 1255 00:50:06,868 --> 00:50:08,970 There hasn't been a lot of innovation 1256 00:50:08,970 --> 00:50:09,933 in the area. 1257 00:50:10,896 --> 00:50:12,990 You know, you do wonder if this might be 1258 00:50:12,990 --> 00:50:16,170 an area where people focus some attention 1259 00:50:16,170 --> 00:50:17,360 in trying to update these laws 1260 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,106 and try to, try to do some more, 1261 00:50:19,106 --> 00:50:22,460 get some more value out of them. 1262 00:50:22,460 --> 00:50:23,510 It'll be interesting. 1263 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,290 - [Participant] Cool, thanks. 1264 00:50:26,290 --> 00:50:28,855 Just one quick followup is if you feel 1265 00:50:28,855 --> 00:50:32,150 the states you've looked at, are the programs 1266 00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:35,910 just really broadly feeling like they're sustainable? 1267 00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:38,050 Do you feel like there's pressure 1268 00:50:38,050 --> 00:50:41,280 to expand the program, limit it? 1269 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,533 Do you have any sense of that? 1270 00:50:45,140 --> 00:50:47,870 - Yeah again, the states I looked at the most 1271 00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:50,045 were up here in New England and you know, 1272 00:50:50,045 --> 00:50:52,260 I did a little bit of research in trying 1273 00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:54,060 to figure out what the public support 1274 00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:55,720 is for these programs. 1275 00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,690 You do see some articles from time to time 1276 00:50:57,690 --> 00:50:59,280 where somebody's quibbling about the cost 1277 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,860 of the program and you know, is not happy 1278 00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:03,847 that certain large landowners are getting 1279 00:51:03,847 --> 00:51:05,930 a tax benefit. 1280 00:51:05,930 --> 00:51:08,390 But, you don't see a lot of it and what I'd be 1281 00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:10,827 really interested to see if there are, 1282 00:51:10,827 --> 00:51:13,780 and I haven't see it, is just public polling support 1283 00:51:13,780 --> 00:51:15,060 for current use programs. 1284 00:51:15,060 --> 00:51:17,930 I do see some of that type polling 1285 00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:19,760 for just conservation efforts generally, 1286 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,733 which you know arguably, current use fits into. 1287 00:51:24,730 --> 00:51:26,776 So yeah, from a fiscal standpoint it is 1288 00:51:26,776 --> 00:51:31,300 I think for now you know, I don't have 1289 00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:34,360 huge concerns that these won't be sustainable. 1290 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,990 - [Participant] Thanks. 1291 00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:37,270 - We've got a few minutes left, folks, 1292 00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:38,826 so feel free, feel free to speak up 1293 00:51:38,826 --> 00:51:42,078 or type in. 1294 00:51:42,078 --> 00:51:43,813 Quick one for you, Jess. 1295 00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:49,030 Just specifics on this nitty gritty on buildings 1296 00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:50,990 'cause you've done some lookin' for us. 1297 00:51:50,990 --> 00:51:52,560 You certainly know ag. 1298 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,420 Any key distinctions people should know 1299 00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:57,240 about what actually qualifies as a, as a building 1300 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,340 or a bonafide structure that may have 1301 00:51:59,340 --> 00:52:01,290 some implications towards eligibility 1302 00:52:01,290 --> 00:52:02,123 or what's covered? 1303 00:52:02,123 --> 00:52:03,330 I'm thinking about the difference 1304 00:52:03,330 --> 00:52:04,810 between a sugar house and then you know, 1305 00:52:04,810 --> 00:52:08,580 what we call kinda running sheds or poll barns 1306 00:52:08,580 --> 00:52:10,433 or things of that nature. 1307 00:52:12,050 --> 00:52:13,980 - Yeah, it's gonna depend on the state 1308 00:52:13,980 --> 00:52:15,900 and sorta how the state use structures 1309 00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:17,800 and how the state use structures is fitting 1310 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,510 within a specific enrollment category. 1311 00:52:20,510 --> 00:52:22,440 Some states are gonna be more permissive 1312 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,310 on structures within the ag enrollment 1313 00:52:25,310 --> 00:52:26,790 than they are in the forest land enrollment. 1314 00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:29,280 I would say that's fairly common. 1315 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,200 Yeah, there is some support for buildings 1316 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,127 in some enrollment types. 1317 00:52:33,127 --> 00:52:34,440 There's less for some. 1318 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:35,810 You've just gotta be really careful 1319 00:52:35,810 --> 00:52:36,988 and make sure that you're complying 1320 00:52:36,988 --> 00:52:39,570 with the specific structure guidance 1321 00:52:39,570 --> 00:52:41,820 that is applied to your enrollment category. 1322 00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:43,690 But, I mean, it will be interesting to see 1323 00:52:43,690 --> 00:52:46,700 if, if there is more flexibility 1324 00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:49,290 for structures in different enrollment categories 1325 00:52:49,290 --> 00:52:53,380 as the use of these lands change a little bit. 1326 00:52:53,380 --> 00:52:54,720 And again, we're seeing that already 1327 00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,030 in the ag space, but will the same happen 1328 00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:58,283 in the forest enrollment. 1329 00:52:59,140 --> 00:53:02,068 It's interesting to think about sort of how these programs 1330 00:53:02,068 --> 00:53:05,910 evolve and what is permissible and not permissible 1331 00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:08,010 at a given time within a specific program. 1332 00:53:09,359 --> 00:53:10,240 - That's great. 1333 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:12,240 That's my interest to look at the, the specifics 1334 00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:13,910 of each, each particular program 1335 00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:16,373 and look at their individual guidelines. 1336 00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:19,800 - I mean, I think that's, I think that's critical. 1337 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,970 You know, every program, and you can look 1338 00:53:21,970 --> 00:53:24,300 at the guidance also, if you're looking 1339 00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:27,910 at a forest program, working with your forester 1340 00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:30,740 is essentially the best resource that you're gonna have, 1341 00:53:30,740 --> 00:53:32,220 because they're gonna know the nitty gritty 1342 00:53:32,220 --> 00:53:33,930 of how these programs work in and out. 1343 00:53:33,930 --> 00:53:37,467 And if you're having a forest management plan anyway, 1344 00:53:37,467 --> 00:53:40,400 rely on them, get their advice, 1345 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,750 make sure that you're being compliant 1346 00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:46,750 in what your operations, how well your operations 1347 00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:50,087 are gonna work within that type going forward. 1348 00:53:50,087 --> 00:53:51,973 That's critical. 1349 00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:55,720 - Great, thanks Jess. 1350 00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:59,380 Well folks, I'm gonna watch for a couple dots 1351 00:53:59,380 --> 00:54:01,970 if anyone's typing, but I have a feeling 1352 00:54:01,970 --> 00:54:05,190 we're running low on questions 1353 00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:08,283 and just on time, just on 8 o'clock. 1354 00:54:09,530 --> 00:54:10,660 So okay, good. 1355 00:54:10,660 --> 00:54:12,387 Well, let's wrap it up there, that's good. 1356 00:54:12,387 --> 00:54:14,750 We're real appreciative, Jess, to have you, 1357 00:54:14,750 --> 00:54:16,270 have you workin' with us tonight 1358 00:54:16,270 --> 00:54:18,180 and certainly will be working with you 1359 00:54:18,180 --> 00:54:19,610 a little bit of publications over 1360 00:54:19,610 --> 00:54:21,018 the next several weeks, which will be great 1361 00:54:21,018 --> 00:54:23,750 to try to elevate these conversations, 1362 00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:26,910 at least give people directed in the right place. 1363 00:54:26,910 --> 00:54:28,200 Thanks everyone for attending. 1364 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,670 I will say as an update, I know that the Vermont 1365 00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:34,970 Maple Conferences are, Mark, I don't know 1366 00:54:34,970 --> 00:54:36,460 if you're still there, if you wanna chime in. 1367 00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:38,770 I think Vermont Maple Conference scheduled 1368 00:54:38,770 --> 00:54:40,023 for early December? 1369 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,350 - [Participant] Yep, it'll be the publication's 1370 00:54:43,350 --> 00:54:45,500 coming out in the next little bit, 1371 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:48,690 but the date is a one day event 1372 00:54:48,690 --> 00:54:52,620 on December 11 at DTC in Randolph. 1373 00:54:52,620 --> 00:54:54,900 And then we'll have three days of online content, 1374 00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:57,940 the 8th, 9th, and 10th leading up to that. 1375 00:54:59,350 --> 00:55:00,980 - Great, thanks Mark. 1376 00:55:00,980 --> 00:55:03,140 And for anyone that's watching if you remember 1377 00:55:03,140 --> 00:55:05,420 the Vermont Maple Sugar Makers Association, 1378 00:55:05,420 --> 00:55:06,610 there'll be plenty of literature there 1379 00:55:06,610 --> 00:55:10,030 and then you can always to to Mark's UVM Extension 1380 00:55:10,030 --> 00:55:11,320 maple website. 1381 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,700 I also did get notice I believe that New York state 1382 00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:15,707 will be running their conference in person, 1383 00:55:15,707 --> 00:55:18,990 or hopefully in person, early January, 1384 00:55:18,990 --> 00:55:20,640 and that I think is somewhere between 1385 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,193 January 6th and January 8th. 1386 00:55:24,820 --> 00:55:26,080 Those are the two updates I've got. 1387 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:27,110 So, we'll leave it there. 1388 00:55:27,110 --> 00:55:28,230 Thanks a lot, Jess. 1389 00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:31,250 Thanks everyone for comin' and have 1390 00:55:31,250 --> 00:55:32,458 a good season if we don't see you until 1391 00:55:32,458 --> 00:55:34,153 after sugar run.