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- Hello, everyone.

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This is Mark Cannella

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with the University of Vermont Extension.

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Thanks for joining us tonight.

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We will hang out on pause
for just a minute or two

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as other attendees join through the lobby.

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So hang tight,

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and the program will begin
in a couple of minutes.

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All right, a couple minutes after seven.

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We might as well get started,

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and wouldn't doubt we'll
have a few new faces join.

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Again, this is Mark Cannella,

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University of Vermont Extension.

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Thanks for joining us tonight.

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I've got a great webinar
planned with Dr. Tony D'Amato.

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A couple of announcements
before we get started.

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As always, we do have
closed captioning available.

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If you go into the chat bubble,

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which will be on your top or side ribbon,

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look for the little cartoon bubble,

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and our closed caption
link should be right there.

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We've got everyone
muted on audio and video

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for the beginning portion, at least.

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If the presenter wants
to take any questions,

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we'll just get cued up and
we can unlock people's audio.

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But people are welcome and encouraged

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to use the chat box at any
point during the session.

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We've got a couple moderators on.

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We may chime in.

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We also may hold some of
those questions until the end,

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but don't hesitate to use the chat bubble.

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Let's see, one or two more announcements.

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We've got one more
webinar on October 27th.

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That'll be the last
webinar for this series,

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and that'll be Northeast
Forest Land Tax Programs,

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coming up in two weeks.

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And then, also, a heads up

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that the planning is underway,

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fingers crossed on the
dynamics these days,

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but the planning is underway
for Vermont Maple Conference.

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That should be near the
end of the first week

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or the beginning of the
second week of December.

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So I encourage you to check out

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the UVM Extension Maple webpage

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and watch for announcements on that,

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as well as your own regions.

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I'm sure there's other
conferences coming up

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in different parts of the U.S.

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So with that, I'm gonna
introduce our presenter.

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We're glad to have Dr.
Tony D'Amato here tonight.

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Dr. D'Amato is the director
of the forestry program

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with the Rubenstein School of Environment

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and Natural Resources at
University of Vermont.

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And a great topic, maple
forests and carbon.

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So we're looking forward to the session,

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and I'm gonna hand it off to Tony now.

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- Thanks, Mark, and thanks, folks,

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for logging on tonight.

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And so what I'll be doing this evening

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for the next half hour or so,

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is just giving some broad
background on carbon,

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how it intersects with forests

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and, in particular, how it might either be

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a compatible objective
for sugarbush management,

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as well as possibly
something you can enhance

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through the management of sugarbushes.

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And so, I recognize that
we have a wide range

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of backgrounds in terms of forest carbon

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and in forestry on the webinar here.

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And so my hope is that
some of this will be review

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for some of you and for others,

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hopefully there'll be some new information

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that you can integrate into your work

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because clearly carbon and
forest is a topic that's growing.

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And as many are aware of,

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is one that's increasingly being monetized

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and thought of as a way for landowners

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and others involved with land management

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to increase both the revenue
stream from their forest,

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but also importantly,

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conserve forest land and
maintain a lot of those benefits.

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So what I'm gonna be doing this evening

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is kind of giving just some basics

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in terms of forest carbon.

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Again, I recognize that
many on this webinar

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have a good understanding from that

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about how forest carbon works,

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but just to review and make sure all of us

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are using similar
terminology and understanding

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what we're getting at.

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And a lot of what I'll talk
about today will actually borrow

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from a outreach pamphlet that we developed

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a couple of years ago
with UMass extension,

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Paul Catanzaro in particular,

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really was instrumental in leading this.

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And those that are interested
in downloading a PDF

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of that can go to masswoods.org/carbon

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and grab a copy of that.

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But I'll really be relying heavily on that

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as a way to just talk
through some of the basics

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of forest carbon, and also expand upon

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some of the recommendations in that,

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that work in terms of how
we might manage a sugarbush

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with carbon in mind,

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both to enhance and
maintain those benefits,

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as well as throughout really
recognizing that carbon

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is one of many things that we
look to sugarbushes and forest

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more broadly as an objective.

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And so, recognizing
that there's trade-offs

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with any objective in terms of maximizing

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one versus the other.

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One minor technical note,

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a couple of times during the
webinar, to break things up,

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certainly keep you awake
and maybe talking less,

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I think those two are correlated,

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we'll be using a menti.com.

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So either on your phone or on the computer

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that you're actually
watching this webinar on,

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you can just go to the website, menti.com.

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And then when we get to
that part of the webinar,

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we'll be doing...

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I'll give you a number to enter in

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and that'll allow you to do
some interactive carbon quizzing

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to keep you at least partially
awake as we go through this.

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So in terms of forest and carbon,

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and why are we in a Maple webinar series

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talking about carbon,

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the real kind of ultimate reason for this

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is that finally folks have recognized

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that there is nothing
better on land and forest

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when it relates to carbon.

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And carbon sequestration, carbon storage,

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all of those terms you hear
have always occurred in forest,

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and have always been a very
important process in forest.

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But as we are grappling
with the challenges

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of rising atmospheric CO2,

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and trying to figure out ways
to offset those emissions

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and try to minimize and
reduce the level of warming

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and changes in weather
patterns that we're seeing,

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more and more folks,

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whether it's foresters or
politicians are recognizing

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that one of the ultimate natural
climate solutions we have

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is to try to maximize the amount of carbon

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that's in forest and on the land,

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and minimize the amount
that's in the atmosphere.

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And so if there's a marine
biologist on this call,

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they could pull rank and
say that oceans actually

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do store a bit more carbon than forest.

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But on land, forests are
the best thing we have

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certainly relative to any other
land use vegetation cover,

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you name it.

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Forests really are so critical.

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And when we look at the
national kind of scale,

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like how much of our yearly,

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or even daily emissions
of fossil fuels are offset

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by forests, most folks
estimate that 10 to 20%

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of our emissions, kind
of at the national scale

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are being offset by forests.

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And 100 would be even better,

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but obviously we have
big chunks of the U.S.

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This map here is just showing
kind of a density of carbon

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with places like the Northeast
where many of us reside

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having a pretty high amount
of carbon in our forest,

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certainly doing a lot of
the polling of that weight

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as it relates to offsetting
those fossil fuels.

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Vermont, the state that I live in,

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and several others I know
on this webinar live in,

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because we're a rural state,

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but a very forested state,

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up to 60% depending on
the year of the emissions

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by Vermonters are actually offset

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by the forest and the state.

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And so, it's really kind
of a tremendous benefit

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to those of us living in a state

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that we maybe can feel a little bit better

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about our emissions,

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just given we have this
wonderful forested landscape.

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And so a lot of what I'll be
describing and the terminology,

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it's not new, but certainly
more and more folks

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are interested in it because
of this global recognition

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of the importance of forest and carbon,

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including forest that are being used

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for maple syrup production.

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So there are some terms
that we're gonna go through

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that are really important to be clear on,

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because given that carbon has become

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such a popular topic in the media,

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certainly in different
environmental groups,

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in forestry lexicon

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oftentimes terms are used interchangeably

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and can actually confuse matters

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in terms of how best to manage forests

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and how best to think about
forests and our sugarbush

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in the context of, if I'm trying
to maximize carbon benefits

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and trying to really kind
of obtain some of those,

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those kind of additional
levels of storage and offset.

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And so the first key
term that we often use

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is this term, carbon pool.

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And a good way to think about this,

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it's similar to your bank account.

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Basically it's capable of
both having money added to it,

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as well as money loss from it.

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And what we're really hoping
over time is that those pools

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are growing similar to your bank account,

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that they're kind of accumulating carbon.

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And so we often focus a lot
on kind of what's the size

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of the pool out in the forest
and kind of how much of that,

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how much that is kind of retaining carbon

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versus losing carbon.

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That whole process of
retention really gets to a term

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that we hear quite often
known as carbon storage.

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And so just how much of
that carbon, let's just say,

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we're looking at this carbon pool of soil,

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how much of that carbon that's in the soil

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is actually being retained
or stored over time.

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And so storage is really
that, how permanent,

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or at least relatively stable
is that aspect of the pool.

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And then the final term that
we often hear, and again,

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unfortunately used interchangeably
with carbon storage

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is this term, sequestration.

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And really, sequestration is a rate,

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kind of how fast and
rapidly is actually CO2

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being pulled out of the
atmosphere by plants

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and being fixed and turned into parts

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and kind of starches and
sugars and other things

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in that tree, and maintaining
that tree structure

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and allowing that tree to grow

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and accumulate carbon over time.

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And so, sequestration really is that rate

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that carbon is being
removed from the atmosphere.

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So, three really key terms
that all have a big impact

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on just how any forest might look in terms

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of its benefit from a carbon standpoint.

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So if we look at carbon pools again,

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think of these as kind of the size

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of that forest bank account

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and kind of how much carbon

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is in that kind of account
at any given point in time.

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There are five kinds
of forest carbon pools

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we really think about in terms

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of how our management
activities might impact them.

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And so the one that we often
are most interested in,

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kind of what we call the
live above ground pools,

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so it's kind of all the trees, the shrubs,

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all the other plants.

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And as we'll talk a bit more in a bit,

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this tends to be a very large pool.

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You think about just the massive trees,

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how much they grow,

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it's a reason why forest
or so much more carbon

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than grasslands or prairies
or other ecosystems

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where the vegetation is quite diminutive

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relative to a forest.

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Related to kind of
above ground live pools.

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Obviously those trees
have have root systems.

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And so again, that below ground component

257
00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:17,760
is quite critical for both stabilizing

258
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,090
the soil carbon pools,
but also certainly serving

259
00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:23,800
as a kind of a below ground
ability for storing carbon

260
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:24,860
in that root system.

261
00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:27,910
And as those trees die,
become either snags,

262
00:10:27,910 --> 00:10:30,560
so standing dead trees, or dead wood.

263
00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,730
That live above ground pool is transferred

264
00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:34,660
into these kinds of pools of dead wood,

265
00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:36,870
that again, even though are decaying

266
00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:38,550
and emitting some carbon,

267
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:40,990
collectively, that rate
of emission is pretty low.

268
00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:43,700
And so it's still is an
important pool of carbon

269
00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:45,530
being retained on that site.

270
00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:49,060
Similarly leaf litter, things
coming off of the tree,

271
00:10:49,060 --> 00:10:50,820
those accumulate over time.

272
00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:53,380
And sugarbushes, given just
the decomposition rates

273
00:10:53,380 --> 00:10:56,000
of maple leaves because of
the quality of that litter,

274
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,840
often the leaf litter
might not be as thick

275
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,927
as you would see in a spruce
forest or a pine forest,

276
00:11:00,927 --> 00:11:02,430
or that it might accumulate a bit more.

277
00:11:02,430 --> 00:11:04,060
But nevertheless, litter
layer is certainly

278
00:11:04,060 --> 00:11:07,200
an important part of what's
out there for carbon pool

279
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:08,090
in any forest.

280
00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:11,230
And then finally the one that
certainly is quite important,

281
00:11:11,230 --> 00:11:12,250
and we'll talk more about this,

282
00:11:12,250 --> 00:11:14,490
are belowground or kind of soil pool.

283
00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:16,600
And so the carbon that's being decomposed

284
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,170
integrate into the soil layer,

285
00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:21,193
really important pool that
exists across the landscape.

286
00:11:22,216 --> 00:11:23,049
And so if we look at this

287
00:11:23,049 --> 00:11:25,590
in terms of just how that breaks down,

288
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:27,840
this is just taking from inventory data

289
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,250
and estimates of carbon for
the Northeastern United States.

290
00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:33,510
If I were to take an average
northern hardwood forest,

291
00:11:33,510 --> 00:11:35,220
so maple, birch, beach forest,

292
00:11:35,220 --> 00:11:37,690
similar to what many of your sugarbushes

293
00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:40,090
are compositionally, or
at least the potential

294
00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:42,880
for those sites and break down how much

295
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,625
of the carbon in that
forest is actually stored

296
00:11:45,625 --> 00:11:46,780
in these different components,

297
00:11:46,780 --> 00:11:49,710
what we generally see is
roughly half of that carbon

298
00:11:49,710 --> 00:11:51,490
is in of live above ground.

299
00:11:51,490 --> 00:11:53,470
So it's a big part of that carbon pool,

300
00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:57,043
both kind of the live
aboveground parts are important.

301
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,460
Five metric tons, so 7% is
in belowground live carbon.

302
00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:05,540
And then the remainder
is either in dead tissue

303
00:12:05,540 --> 00:12:06,940
or importantly in the soil.

304
00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:09,750
And so when we think about forest carbon

305
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:11,130
and in managing forest carbon,

306
00:12:11,130 --> 00:12:13,780
we have a lot of influence
on the above-ground piece,

307
00:12:13,780 --> 00:12:16,310
but nevertheless, we don't
want to have a dramatic impact

308
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:20,181
on the soils because that's
such a big stable pool

309
00:12:20,181 --> 00:12:21,740
that really is hard to kind of replenish

310
00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:23,177
once we've lost carbon from that.

311
00:12:23,177 --> 00:12:25,060
And so, a lot of what we'll talk about

312
00:12:25,060 --> 00:12:26,510
as we get into managing for carbon

313
00:12:26,510 --> 00:12:28,460
is not only thinking
about how we're affecting

314
00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:32,050
the aboveground portion, so
cutting trees or managing trees,

315
00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:35,360
but also making sure that
we're not causing impact

316
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,430
to those belowground portion.

317
00:12:36,430 --> 00:12:38,193
So certainly a key part.

318
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,250
So the last bit of terms
I wanna bring into this,

319
00:12:43,250 --> 00:12:44,730
really deals with carbon markets.

320
00:12:44,730 --> 00:12:46,490
And the reason I'm
bringing this up is that,

321
00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:48,100
as I mentioned in the introduction

322
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,000
a lot of folks are interested in carbon,

323
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,360
just out of the goodness of our hearts,

324
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,010
because we wanna sequester CO2

325
00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:55,750
and minimize greenhouse gas

326
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:58,278
or offset greenhouse gas emissions,

327
00:12:58,278 --> 00:13:00,520
and try to kind of reduce the
rate of warming, et cetera,

328
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,390
but there is some financial incentive

329
00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:06,200
for carbon these days
related to carbon markets.

330
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,330
And so basically getting
paid as a landowner

331
00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:11,290
to either maximize carbon benefit

332
00:13:11,290 --> 00:13:14,740
or certainly provide carbon
benefit from your land base.

333
00:13:14,740 --> 00:13:17,170
And so the three terms
that we often think about

334
00:13:17,170 --> 00:13:19,440
when it comes to carbon
markets, and again,

335
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,070
I recognize that some in this webinar

336
00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:24,340
are well versed in this,
and how this all works,

337
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:25,600
and this is not a
webinar on carbon markets

338
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,590
so I won't get too in the weeds on this.

339
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:29,530
But just so folks are comfortable

340
00:13:29,530 --> 00:13:31,610
or at least reviewing these terms

341
00:13:31,610 --> 00:13:33,090
if you're already familiar with them,

342
00:13:33,090 --> 00:13:36,580
that when a landowner, whether
it be you with a sugarbush

343
00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:38,690
or properties that you're working with,

344
00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:41,400
if they're interested in
entering into a carbon market,

345
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,010
essentially the way that that carbon

346
00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:45,140
is gonna be monetized and that land owner

347
00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:46,730
is gonna get paid is that,

348
00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:49,070
they wanna see you kind of sequestering

349
00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:51,470
and storing more carbon on that land base

350
00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:53,480
relative to what you would have done

351
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,433
if you had not had been
enrolled in that market.

352
00:13:56,433 --> 00:13:58,480
And so, essentially what
we often are concerned with

353
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,930
is this additionality, kind of
how much more carbon storage

354
00:14:00,930 --> 00:14:02,670
is happening on your land base,

355
00:14:02,670 --> 00:14:05,510
relative to what would have
been your planned activities

356
00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:06,550
for that forest.

357
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:09,010
And so a simple example might be,

358
00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:10,970
this land owner here

359
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:13,970
if they were to enter into a
carbon market, they might say,

360
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:15,830
from this point forward,

361
00:14:15,830 --> 00:14:17,930
we are never gonna cut
another tree in our forest.

362
00:14:17,930 --> 00:14:19,410
And so, our traditional management

363
00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:21,300
was that we harvest the trees

364
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,270
and now we're gonna
enroll in carbon markets,

365
00:14:23,270 --> 00:14:24,260
you can get paid for

366
00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:27,000
kind of that above and beyond
carbon we're now storing

367
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,550
because we're not cutting trees.

368
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:31,150
Or we might modify our harvesting behavior

369
00:14:31,150 --> 00:14:32,250
to increase that.

370
00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:34,290
And so it's a key element
because it's really,

371
00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:36,530
this is the agreement you're
making that you're gonna be

372
00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:38,440
kind of storing carbon above and beyond

373
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,280
what you would have done if you kept doing

374
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,110
kind of your typical management.

375
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:44,180
And so, for many
conservation organizations,

376
00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:46,770
it's often conserving that land

377
00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:51,030
and basically extinguishing
the harvesting on that land.

378
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:52,140
The key element of that though,

379
00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:53,580
and one that's not talked about enough

380
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:55,620
and one, I think that is really critical

381
00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:57,930
is that carbon is a global issue,

382
00:14:57,930 --> 00:14:59,380
climate change is a global issue.

383
00:14:59,380 --> 00:15:03,140
And so, if in your backyard,
or if in your home state,

384
00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:05,380
like the one I'm sitting in,

385
00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:07,410
many landowners kind of doubled down on,

386
00:15:07,410 --> 00:15:08,780
I'm gonna get into carbon markets

387
00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:10,190
and much of what I'm gonna do

388
00:15:10,190 --> 00:15:13,140
is basically reduce or eliminate
the amount of harvesting

389
00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:16,030
I'm doing from my land
in the name of carbon,

390
00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:18,280
incentivizing carbon payments.

391
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,550
You're essentially kind of
shifting the wood product needs

392
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:23,383
that you have.

393
00:15:23,383 --> 00:15:25,840
So you're using wood
every day to other parts

394
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,260
of the country, other parts of the globe.

395
00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:29,860
And so kind of pushing
kind of year wood needs

396
00:15:29,860 --> 00:15:31,507
and your carbon impact to other areas.

397
00:15:31,507 --> 00:15:34,040
And so, we often think
of that as a leakage

398
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,210
where even though you're doing a great job

399
00:15:36,210 --> 00:15:37,840
sequestering carbon on your land,

400
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,100
you're actually kind of
pushing on those impacts

401
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:41,020
to someone else.

402
00:15:41,020 --> 00:15:43,130
And so, they certainly tried to track this

403
00:15:43,130 --> 00:15:44,680
with carbon projects, but I would argue

404
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,720
that there's a lot more to be done on that

405
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,330
given just how often
we have carbon projects

406
00:15:50,330 --> 00:15:51,950
happening in places
where they're certainly

407
00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:55,170
not producing their fair share
of the wood they consume.

408
00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:58,100
And so the final piece
given we wanna make sure

409
00:15:58,100 --> 00:15:59,880
that the carbon that's being stored

410
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,050
on that land base is permanent,

411
00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:06,880
or at least permanent in
the eyes of our lifespans.

412
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,980
Typically with carbon offset projects,

413
00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:12,200
it's usually anywhere from a
40 to a 100-year agreement.

414
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,390
And what they're looking for often

415
00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:14,450
is some sort of instrument,

416
00:16:14,450 --> 00:16:16,340
whether it's a conservation easement

417
00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:17,700
or some other mechanism

418
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:20,660
that actually confirms
that that land will not,

419
00:16:20,660 --> 00:16:23,670
in five years convert to a shopping mall

420
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:25,830
or an agricultural field or a solar array

421
00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:28,350
that would basically take
all of that carbon benefit

422
00:16:28,350 --> 00:16:29,500
and convert it to something else.

423
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,220
And so, making sure that not
only are you gaining carbon,

424
00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:35,840
not only are you minimizing
kind of the leakage,

425
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,450
but you're also kind of permanently,

426
00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:38,760
or at least like I said,

427
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,900
in the eyes of kind of our lifespans

428
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:42,350
and kind of these agreements,

429
00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:44,810
maintain that carbon for
a certain time period.

430
00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:46,660
Again, this webinar's
not on carbon markets,

431
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:48,730
but there are some that have
much shorter timeframes,

432
00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:50,670
but the kind of the...

433
00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:52,450
When we're looking at some
of the compliance markets

434
00:16:52,450 --> 00:16:53,400
and regulatory markets,

435
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,100
these are what we're dealing with.

436
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,730
The first chance to test me

437
00:16:59,730 --> 00:17:02,530
and maybe push me to never
use this again, let's see.

438
00:17:02,530 --> 00:17:05,010
If folks will go to menti.com,

439
00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:07,590
and I'll pull up my screen in a second.

440
00:17:07,590 --> 00:17:10,940
So if you just go online to menti.com

441
00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:15,880
and then enter in the code 2217 7744,

442
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,560
and I'll leave it up on
the screen for a moment.

443
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,220
And maybe, Mark,

444
00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:21,053
if you wouldn't mind just typing

445
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:23,770
the code in the chat too.

446
00:17:23,770 --> 00:17:24,970
When I share my screen,

447
00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:26,460
this code will be on there again,

448
00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:29,480
but if folks can go to
menti.com either on your phone

449
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,370
or on the computer, you're watching me on,

450
00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:35,270
and then I'll pull up the screen here.

451
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:37,100
And what we're gonna talk about now

452
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:39,180
are just kind of different
attributes of forests

453
00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:43,610
and how those are impacted by...

454
00:17:43,610 --> 00:17:46,200
All right, somebody was
able to get on, awesome.

455
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,060
Two people were able to get on.

456
00:17:48,060 --> 00:17:49,260
Mark, and Abby and Mark.

457
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,390
So, one of the key questions

458
00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:56,390
when we get into thinking about carbon

459
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:58,010
and how forests should be managed

460
00:17:58,010 --> 00:18:00,960
and how we should think
about the best ways

461
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,550
to manage ecosystems,

462
00:18:02,550 --> 00:18:04,550
there's often a lot of discussion around

463
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:07,770
what is the best forest condition

464
00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:09,870
when it comes to Sequestration.

465
00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:12,950
And so we have some early
returns on this question,

466
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:14,800
those have been able to make their way in.

467
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,330
And I always try to hide
the answers with my classes.

468
00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:17,310
I think once they're up there,

469
00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:20,350
folks just pile on one option.

470
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:23,350
But I think I just have a very
enlightened group here today.

471
00:18:24,650 --> 00:18:28,890
So those of you that are tallying on here,

472
00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:31,470
looks like the majority so
far are going middle-aged

473
00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:34,030
and now we're getting a
little bit of spread on this.

474
00:18:34,030 --> 00:18:38,420
Give people another minute
or so to put in their votes.

475
00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:39,600
Looks like I have 14 folks,

476
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,160
so give the last couple of folks a second

477
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,753
to put in a vote if they want.

478
00:18:49,238 --> 00:18:51,730
All right, so those of
you that answered...

479
00:18:53,668 --> 00:18:54,740
The 13th, if you just waited.

480
00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:57,100
All right, so there's a 14th got it right.

481
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,460
So those that answered middle-aged,

482
00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:01,309
poles and sawtimber, are correct.

483
00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:03,360
In that, really this often tends to be,

484
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,410
as that forest is
entering into, and again,

485
00:19:06,410 --> 00:19:08,840
speaking from kind of our
Northern hardwood ecosystems

486
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,080
here in the Northeast,

487
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,520
anywhere from 30 to 60 years of age

488
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,950
just tends to be where we
see that kind of peak rate

489
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:17,210
of sequestration in terms of growth.

490
00:19:17,210 --> 00:19:19,560
And so, that's a critical fact,

491
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,520
because it really does influence how folks

492
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,320
think about the types of forests

493
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:24,430
we should be managing for,

494
00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:27,840
and kind of how we work across
the landscape with them.

495
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,130
And part of that issue
really revolves back around,

496
00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:33,690
and thank you for humoring me with menti.

497
00:19:33,690 --> 00:19:37,260
We'll have another chance
to break that later.

498
00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:39,410
Really deals around with
how people sometimes

499
00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:42,610
use the term storage and
sequestration interchangeably.

500
00:19:42,610 --> 00:19:44,260
And it really creates a bit of confusion

501
00:19:44,260 --> 00:19:47,190
as to what forest
condition is best for what.

502
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:49,650
And so this diagram is kind of a way

503
00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:51,770
that we try to summarize
that in this pamphlet

504
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:54,800
where we have, in brown here,

505
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,330
the darker the color, as this forest ages,

506
00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:59,080
the more carbon storage there is.

507
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,470
And so as forest age,
trees are getting bigger,

508
00:20:01,470 --> 00:20:03,250
they're accumulating dead trees,

509
00:20:03,250 --> 00:20:05,713
they're accumulating litter and so forth.

510
00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:09,840
It's a world-proven fact
that as forest get older,

511
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,310
the amount of carbon stored
in them gets higher, right?

512
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:15,010
And so, as your forest is getting older,

513
00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:16,250
your sugarbush is getting older,

514
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:17,130
the trees are getting bigger,

515
00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,860
and we'll talk more about this,

516
00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:19,913
the storage goes up.

517
00:20:22,021 --> 00:20:22,860
The challenge though is that,

518
00:20:22,860 --> 00:20:25,760
if we view this as kind of
the only way that carbon

519
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,030
is being stored and
sequestered from the landscape,

520
00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:29,390
it leads to kind of these arguments

521
00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:32,270
that all we need is a lot of
old forest in our landscape.

522
00:20:32,270 --> 00:20:34,250
The problem is that when
we look at sequestration,

523
00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:37,900
that rate of carbon being
pulled out of the atmosphere,

524
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:40,400
this dark green area,
kind of that pole timber

525
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,290
and a small sawtimber,

526
00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:43,000
this tends to be the
period of stand's life,

527
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,690
where it actually sequestering
at the highest rate.

528
00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:47,180
Early in a forest's life,

529
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:49,390
even though these trees
are growing really fast,

530
00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:51,330
there's a lot of soil carbon being lost

531
00:20:51,330 --> 00:20:52,940
as that forest recovers from disturbance.

532
00:20:52,940 --> 00:20:56,070
And so, the net balance is not that great.

533
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:58,490
But as that forest closes in
and keeps growing and growing,

534
00:20:58,490 --> 00:21:01,340
we see, and this is kind of
that sigmoid growth curve,

535
00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:03,360
this tends to be that peak rate.

536
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:04,792
And there's that,

537
00:21:04,792 --> 00:21:06,473
we're taught by this
stuff in forestry school.

538
00:21:06,473 --> 00:21:08,220
I know a couple of maple
folks that have those degrees,

539
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:10,030
this is kind of where we see peak PAI,

540
00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:12,470
in those processes.

541
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:14,520
So when we're talking about balancing

542
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,370
storage and sequestration,

543
00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:18,230
old forests are awesome for storage,

544
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:21,000
kind of middle-aged forests
are great for sequestration.

545
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,070
All forest, even old forest
are still sequestering carbon,

546
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:26,250
they're just not doing it
as fast as young forest.

547
00:21:26,250 --> 00:21:29,030
And so there's often a bit of a conflation

548
00:21:29,030 --> 00:21:30,813
of those two terms.

549
00:21:30,813 --> 00:21:32,150
And depending on what camp you're in,

550
00:21:32,150 --> 00:21:33,540
whether you're a young forest person

551
00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:34,510
or an old forest person

552
00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:36,080
can cause for some debate

553
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:38,750
around which is better for carbon

554
00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:40,540
and really both are needed.

555
00:21:40,540 --> 00:21:42,800
And we'll certainly talk
about that a bit more.

556
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,500
You'll also notice
certainly the composition

557
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:45,490
of the forest is changing.

558
00:21:45,490 --> 00:21:48,470
And so as we get into
the developmental stage

559
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:50,230
that many sugarbushes often are in,

560
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:52,910
even older depending on
what state you're from,

561
00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:55,391
we're certainly much
more into large sawtimber

562
00:21:55,391 --> 00:21:57,490
and storage is much more the focus.

563
00:21:57,490 --> 00:21:59,820
Those trees aren't growing
at a very rapid rate,

564
00:21:59,820 --> 00:22:01,730
but they certainly have
a lot of mass to them.

565
00:22:01,730 --> 00:22:04,460
Something we'll talk about in a second.

566
00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:07,275
But what I'm gonna get into
is just talking through,

567
00:22:07,275 --> 00:22:08,280
and again, my full discretion,

568
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,823
I'm a forester, silviculturist,

569
00:22:10,823 --> 00:22:11,656
that's kind of how I view the woods.

570
00:22:11,656 --> 00:22:15,280
And so, sugarbushes and their management,

571
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,900
I view very strongly through that lens.

572
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:18,350
And so that's a major caveat,

573
00:22:19,764 --> 00:22:22,510
that I'm a fan of cutting
trees for objectives

574
00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:25,352
and diversity and structure and so forth,

575
00:22:25,352 --> 00:22:27,570
and thinking through how that
fits into kind of both goals

576
00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:30,205
around tree health and composition.

577
00:22:30,205 --> 00:22:31,560
And so what I'm gonna do
is just talk a bit about,

578
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,450
if we're sugaring and have a sugarbush,

579
00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:37,406
are there ways for us to kind
of enhance carbon in those,

580
00:22:37,406 --> 00:22:39,390
and certainly some of you
may have already been,

581
00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:40,690
involved with or aware of,

582
00:22:40,690 --> 00:22:42,680
that there are no sugarbush anchorages

583
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,840
that are part of large
carbon projects right now

584
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:46,970
that are being paid for carbon

585
00:22:46,970 --> 00:22:48,567
and kind of how that works out,

586
00:22:48,567 --> 00:22:49,940
and some things to be aware of,

587
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:51,840
both in terms of trade-offs with that.

588
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:55,580
So the first, most important
thing you could ever do

589
00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:56,930
when it comes to management

590
00:22:58,125 --> 00:23:01,335
and managing for carbon is
to keep a forest a forest.

591
00:23:01,335 --> 00:23:03,760
And I can end the webinar at this point.

592
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,810
Really the biggest impact
that anyone could have

593
00:23:06,810 --> 00:23:08,530
on the amount of carbon
stored in the forest

594
00:23:08,530 --> 00:23:09,740
is to turn it into something else.

595
00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:12,300
And that something else could be a field,

596
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,893
it could be a home lot,

597
00:23:16,134 --> 00:23:16,967
it could be anything.

598
00:23:16,967 --> 00:23:19,385
But going from a non-forest to...

599
00:23:19,385 --> 00:23:20,670
Going from a forest to
a non-forest condition

600
00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:24,980
is a huge impact on the net
storage and sequestration

601
00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:27,634
that happens in any given landscape.

602
00:23:27,634 --> 00:23:29,180
And again, just to pick on Vermont a bit,

603
00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:31,440
the last census of the forest land,

604
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,220
we're losing 2000 acres of
forest per year in the state.

605
00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:37,800
And so, I boasted about 40
to 60% of our fossil fuel

606
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,360
emissions are being offset.

607
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,300
Well, that relies on those
forests still being there

608
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:42,686
to do that.

609
00:23:42,686 --> 00:23:45,040
And so as that number goes
down, certainly an issue.

610
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,610
And so part of that
permanence aspect of carbon,

611
00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:49,340
even if you're not gonna
get into carbon market,

612
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:52,453
as we all appreciate, everybody
on this webinar I hope,

613
00:23:53,914 --> 00:23:55,630
the value is having standing
trees and mature trees

614
00:23:55,630 --> 00:23:57,050
for sugaring and so forth.

615
00:23:57,050 --> 00:23:58,700
Keeping those trees in that state

616
00:23:59,870 --> 00:24:01,690
is the most important
thing we can do for carbon.

617
00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:02,700
But going beyond that,

618
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:04,730
kind of how do I go beyond making sure

619
00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:06,740
I keep the carbon in there,

620
00:24:06,740 --> 00:24:08,990
there are a couple of
different pathways one can take

621
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:11,943
as it relates to carbon
benefits from the forest.

622
00:24:12,925 --> 00:24:15,570
And so, one aspect of
sugarbushes, not all of them,

623
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:17,310
but certainly many,

624
00:24:17,310 --> 00:24:20,240
that already is very
consistent with carbon,

625
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,920
is that these tend to be mature forests.

626
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,580
There often isn't a plan to
do much for heavy harvesting

627
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:30,444
and certainly do much for
conversion to non-forest use.

628
00:24:30,444 --> 00:24:33,040
And so there are aspects
of just how sugarbushes

629
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,920
currently exist in their current state

630
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,450
that really would suggest

631
00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:38,730
that we don't need to do
anything for carbon benefit.

632
00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:40,400
They're already a great place for carbon.

633
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,430
And I would argue that
that's partially true.

634
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:46,540
The nature of sugarbush
management, the nature of,

635
00:24:46,540 --> 00:24:48,380
again, how many of these are structured

636
00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:51,670
and their composition,
and the size of the trees

637
00:24:51,670 --> 00:24:53,970
and so forth that are maintained,

638
00:24:53,970 --> 00:24:57,180
there's certainly multiple benefits.

639
00:24:57,180 --> 00:24:59,630
And from a carbon market perspective,

640
00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:01,270
sugarbush could get payment

641
00:25:01,270 --> 00:25:03,610
basically if they have
historically done some harvesting

642
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:06,580
or even if they haven't depending
on the program you're in,

643
00:25:06,580 --> 00:25:08,940
by agreeing that we will
not harvest any more trees,

644
00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:11,610
we'll keep a high density
of trees in that landscape,

645
00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:13,100
we'll maximize carbon storage,

646
00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:14,400
so it is kind of maximized,

647
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,320
like the living trees that are out there,

648
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,770
just continue sequestration,
not at a high rate,

649
00:25:18,770 --> 00:25:20,963
but certainly those
trees are fixing carbon.

650
00:25:20,963 --> 00:25:22,960
So that's certainly one way to do it.

651
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,090
Basically no management,
other than guaranteeing

652
00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:28,573
that you're gonna keep
that in a forested state.

653
00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:32,940
The key thing to recognize,
and this is where

654
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:35,760
there are challenges with carbon

655
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,410
is that that's a single objective.

656
00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:40,300
And so, if we're gonna
maximize that objective

657
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,330
by not doing any management,

658
00:25:42,330 --> 00:25:44,204
there are some key trade-offs

659
00:25:44,204 --> 00:25:45,734
that really can be an issue.

660
00:25:45,734 --> 00:25:48,590
And the first is, that as many
of you rightfully answered

661
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:52,820
in that pop quiz, these
old stands as they age,

662
00:25:52,820 --> 00:25:55,040
particularly if it's an even-aged stand

663
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,971
really are gonna peak out
in sequestration and again,

664
00:25:58,971 --> 00:26:00,680
be sequestering at a lower
and lower rate over time.

665
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,300
And so the strength of the
carbon sink for that forest,

666
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:06,340
and even for that region
will begin to go down

667
00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,140
if you don't have some young forest

668
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:09,620
or even multi-age forest.

669
00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:12,600
So forest with kind of a mix
of old and young in them.

670
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,900
The bigger issue is that
we think of permanence

671
00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:16,060
in the term of carbon markets,

672
00:26:16,060 --> 00:26:18,020
as it relates to you
not converting that land

673
00:26:18,020 --> 00:26:19,310
to something else.

674
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:21,120
But there's another aspect
of permanence in that

675
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:22,810
are those trees built to last,

676
00:26:22,810 --> 00:26:24,940
both in terms of their
individual structure?

677
00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:27,690
Do they have good life crowns on them,

678
00:26:27,690 --> 00:26:31,270
good branch architecture, high vigor?

679
00:26:31,270 --> 00:26:34,320
Are they surrounded by
all the same species?

680
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,890
And so if we have a defoliater

681
00:26:35,890 --> 00:26:38,030
or some other insects and
disease or disturbance,

682
00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:41,520
do we have kind of high vulnerability,

683
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,220
low resilience to those
so that that carbon

684
00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:44,720
can really be impacted?

685
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,290
And so that high-stocking,
high-carbon condition

686
00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:49,540
oftentimes is a major
trade-off with our ability

687
00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:51,910
to have both vigorous trees,

688
00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:55,690
as well as often higher resilience
with more diverse species

689
00:26:55,690 --> 00:26:57,230
out there in the landscape.

690
00:26:57,230 --> 00:26:58,780
From a habitat standpoint,

691
00:26:58,780 --> 00:27:01,150
again as these trees mature,

692
00:27:01,150 --> 00:27:02,970
certainly, there are species

693
00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:05,270
that need large sawtimber size classes,

694
00:27:05,270 --> 00:27:07,980
but many of those species
also need kind of cover

695
00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:09,250
for fledglings and other things.

696
00:27:09,250 --> 00:27:13,523
And so, there's certainly narrow
habitat value for wildlife.

697
00:27:13,523 --> 00:27:14,510
And then importantly

698
00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:16,480
as I mentioned with the leakage,

699
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,890
let's just say, for example,

700
00:27:17,890 --> 00:27:20,680
a whole county or a whole state even says,

701
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,877
we're just not gonna cut
wood anymore on public land,

702
00:27:23,877 --> 00:27:27,270
and we're gonna hold onto
it in the name of carbon,

703
00:27:27,270 --> 00:27:29,150
unless we that day say

704
00:27:29,150 --> 00:27:31,680
we are also never gonna
consume wood again,

705
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,790
we are basically kind of
shifting our carbon impacts

706
00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:36,190
to other parts of the globe.

707
00:27:37,298 --> 00:27:38,131
And part of that, we're gonna be shipping

708
00:27:38,131 --> 00:27:40,070
those forest products
from those areas to us,

709
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:42,010
which is gonna have a high CO2,

710
00:27:42,010 --> 00:27:45,786
high greenhouse gas
emission price tag on it.

711
00:27:45,786 --> 00:27:47,040
And we're also shifting

712
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,640
some of those environmental
justice and equity issues

713
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:49,590
to areas of the globe

714
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:51,520
that may not have the regulations we have,

715
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,150
or just, unfortunately,

716
00:27:53,150 --> 00:27:55,510
you're not able to capitalize
on markets like us.

717
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:57,870
So there's more than
just maximizing carbon

718
00:27:57,870 --> 00:28:01,240
in your backyard, not thinking
about those global impacts.

719
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,100
So you can see where I'm
probably going with this,

720
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:04,850
that there's another pathway

721
00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:09,850
that still can benefit sugarbushes
and more broadly for us

722
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,990
where you're doing
active forest management.

723
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:14,840
Certainly your main
objective maybe sugaring,

724
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,780
but you're certainly doing silviculture

725
00:28:16,780 --> 00:28:19,500
to both enhance production
in that sugarbush,

726
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:22,470
but also think through habitat values,

727
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:24,700
and doing it in a way that
really is factoring in

728
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:26,839
like how does carbon work,

729
00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:28,180
and carbon in the forest operate?

730
00:28:28,180 --> 00:28:29,580
And so, what I'm really talking about

731
00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:32,287
is doing kind of
carbon-informed silviculture.

732
00:28:33,209 --> 00:28:35,090
And essentially what that's doing is,

733
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:36,800
to the best of your ability,

734
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,670
both trying to minimize the
impact of your management

735
00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:41,740
on carbon storage.

736
00:28:41,740 --> 00:28:44,188
So, even though you're cutting trees

737
00:28:44,188 --> 00:28:45,670
and bringing equipment
out there in the site,

738
00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:46,970
you're trying your best to do that

739
00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:49,710
in a way that kind of
maintains those carbon stores,

740
00:28:49,710 --> 00:28:51,980
or if it depletes those carbon stores,

741
00:28:51,980 --> 00:28:55,040
doing it in a way that over
time will kind of recover

742
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,270
and in many cases provide greater benefit

743
00:28:57,270 --> 00:28:59,130
than no management at all.

744
00:28:59,130 --> 00:29:01,540
And so the three pools
that we often think about

745
00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:04,550
being impacted by any
harvesting out in the woods,

746
00:29:04,550 --> 00:29:06,960
of course, the live aboveground,
here's a bunch of it

747
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,320
being pulled by this grapple skidder.

748
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,310
It's not gonna be in that forest anymore.

749
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:12,960
It's being pulled off that forest

750
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:18,230
and hopefully stored in a
nice veneer in your home.

751
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:21,100
But our impact on those,
the aboveground pools

752
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:22,900
really depends on how much we cut, right?

753
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,770
So we have a pretty
clear lever on that one.

754
00:29:26,770 --> 00:29:28,780
A litter, so kind of soil leaf litter,

755
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:30,860
the leaf litter on top of the soil.

756
00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:35,300
Generally, depending on how
extreme that harvest is,

757
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:37,030
people tend to estimate particularly

758
00:29:37,030 --> 00:29:39,400
where there's skid trails
and a lot of activity.

759
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,140
There's a 20 to 36%
reduction in those pools.

760
00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:46,540
Thankfully leaves fall
every year in these systems,

761
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:49,880
and so it often takes a
decade or two to rebuild that,

762
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,900
but it's something that does recover.

763
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:53,380
But the key thing to really keep in mind,

764
00:29:53,380 --> 00:29:55,430
and this is really something to factor in,

765
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:57,399
even if you aren't interested

766
00:29:57,399 --> 00:29:59,563
in active forest management for carbon.

767
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,360
If you are accessing your sites

768
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,760
your sugarbush with
equipment and are out there

769
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,170
at different times a year,

770
00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:08,400
we really don't wanna compromise

771
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,420
the wonderful carbon that's below our feet

772
00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:15,053
that is really hard to
bring back if we impact it.

773
00:30:15,948 --> 00:30:18,090
And so, a lot of the best
management practices we have,

774
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:20,660
so in Vermont, call 'em
acceptable management practices,

775
00:30:20,660 --> 00:30:22,670
AMPs, but most of us are familiar

776
00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:25,360
with these being referred to
as best management practices.

777
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,950
Many of them really are designed

778
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:28,750
to minimize some soil erosion,

779
00:30:28,750 --> 00:30:30,670
minimize impacts on soils,

780
00:30:30,670 --> 00:30:32,970
make sure that equipment
is operating in a way

781
00:30:33,824 --> 00:30:36,010
that is not displacing soil and getting

782
00:30:36,010 --> 00:30:37,270
into that mineral soil layer

783
00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:40,120
in a way that isn't recoverable.

784
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,780
And so if your goal is to
kind of minimize impact

785
00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:44,890
on soil carbon,

786
00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:46,150
making sure that you're following

787
00:30:46,150 --> 00:30:47,670
the best management
practices in your region

788
00:30:47,670 --> 00:30:48,920
both in terms of times a year

789
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,390
to have equipment in the woods

790
00:30:50,390 --> 00:30:53,360
and minimizing the impact of
that equipment on the soil

791
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,470
is one great way to make
sure that carbon pool

792
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:58,273
is effectively being maintained.

793
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:02,100
So the key thing, and
again, the reason why

794
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:04,140
depending on the nature of your sugarbush,

795
00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:08,346
carbon has a nice
consistency with attributes

796
00:31:08,346 --> 00:31:09,320
of some of our sugarbushes,

797
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,140
is that when it comes
to above ground carbon,

798
00:31:12,140 --> 00:31:14,140
so how much is stored in trees,

799
00:31:14,140 --> 00:31:17,620
big trees have a huge impact on how much

800
00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:18,453
is out in that forest.

801
00:31:18,453 --> 00:31:20,740
So they carry the most
weight literally, right?

802
00:31:21,643 --> 00:31:22,650
And so there's been a bunch of work,

803
00:31:22,650 --> 00:31:25,250
both in hardwood forest in the Northeast,

804
00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:28,820
tropical forest in south America,

805
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:30,180
boreal forest systems.

806
00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:34,690
And all of those ecosystems
have a common trait.

807
00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:37,680
And that is when we look at which trees

808
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,763
and which size trees
store the most carbon,

809
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:43,560
the majority of the carbon in that forest

810
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,410
in terms of aboveground
biomass is actually

811
00:31:45,410 --> 00:31:47,480
in the top 1% of the stems and the stand

812
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,840
in terms of diameter.

813
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,000
So if we look at the sugarbush here,

814
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,850
this one stem basically
in a few other large stems

815
00:31:55,850 --> 00:31:58,820
have up to 50% of all of
the aboveground biomass

816
00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:00,020
in that forest.

817
00:32:00,020 --> 00:32:02,570
Likewise, my students aren't
just giving me the thumbs up

818
00:32:02,570 --> 00:32:04,870
'cause they know how much I
love gnarly old, yellow birch,

819
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:07,340
they're also excited about
the carbon in this tree.

820
00:32:07,340 --> 00:32:09,540
If you think about just how much mass

821
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:12,140
is in one of these large trees,

822
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:14,450
it's really an important
part of that storage

823
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:15,283
that's out there.

824
00:32:15,283 --> 00:32:17,640
And so when we think
about managing sugarbushes

825
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,780
and managing forest in general

826
00:32:19,780 --> 00:32:21,990
maintaining and actually accelerating

827
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:24,880
that large tree component
can be a really good thing

828
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,570
in terms of just kind of maximizing

829
00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:28,170
what we have out there for carbon storage

830
00:32:28,170 --> 00:32:32,000
and also reallocating resources to trees

831
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,270
that likely might be better producers

832
00:32:34,270 --> 00:32:35,760
in terms of sugaring

833
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,030
as well as just kind of
higher vigor individuals.

834
00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:41,740
And so if my goal is to
manage for large tree carbon

835
00:32:42,823 --> 00:32:45,230
in the context of more
traditional forestry applications,

836
00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:47,280
where as opposed to sugaring,

837
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,360
we might actually wanna remove trees

838
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,653
based on some criteria related to,

839
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,180
have they maybe reached the threshold

840
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:56,340
as it relates to different grade increases

841
00:32:57,924 --> 00:32:59,690
for saw logs and so forth.

842
00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:00,740
So in those contexts,

843
00:33:00,740 --> 00:33:02,750
and so for those of you that
do intersect with those worlds,

844
00:33:02,750 --> 00:33:05,790
we're often thinking of at
least extending cutting cycles

845
00:33:05,790 --> 00:33:08,700
or tree level rotations, one
to two inches in diameter

846
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:10,700
or 15 to 20 years,

847
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:12,230
depending on your site productivity.

848
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:14,710
And so keeping those trees out there

849
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:17,723
up to two decades longer
than you normally would.

850
00:33:18,613 --> 00:33:19,446
And so in sugaring,

851
00:33:19,446 --> 00:33:21,720
obviously that's often less of a concern,

852
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,270
but nevertheless, trying to maintain

853
00:33:23,270 --> 00:33:24,300
those large trees out there

854
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:26,000
and maintaining them with high vigor.

855
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,580
And so that's where the
second piece comes in,

856
00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:32,690
in that we know from long
history of civil culture research

857
00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:34,360
and just understanding how trees grow

858
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,700
that if we wanna grow big trees fast

859
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:38,800
and maintain high vigor and maintain trees

860
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,180
that also have high
potential for sap yield,

861
00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:43,320
and one of the best ways to do that

862
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,035
is through crop-tree release.

863
00:33:45,035 --> 00:33:47,150
And so instead of keeping
this high density stand,

864
00:33:47,150 --> 00:33:48,700
that could be kind of qualifying

865
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:50,570
for passive carbon management,

866
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:52,810
we're going out there and
deliberately releasing

867
00:33:52,810 --> 00:33:54,110
some of our better crop trees

868
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:59,110
or better form maple with
various levels of release.

869
00:33:59,740 --> 00:34:01,750
There's different schools
of thought on this,

870
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:04,150
but at least in the forestry context,

871
00:34:04,150 --> 00:34:06,080
we're often asking in a mature stand

872
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,140
for at least two, sometimes
three sides being released

873
00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:13,530
and even a full release,
depending on the context.

874
00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:15,700
But by using that as a
way to really accelerate

875
00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:18,380
that large tree structure
out there on the landscape

876
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:20,820
and get that biomass being fixed.

877
00:34:20,820 --> 00:34:23,450
Likewise, if you are harvesting areas

878
00:34:23,450 --> 00:34:25,650
and so it may not be within the sugarbush,

879
00:34:25,650 --> 00:34:28,840
or even could be in areas
that are being turned over,

880
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,230
when you're doing those harvests

881
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:33,270
and you're still leaving
behind large trees,

882
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:34,733
what we call legacy trees,

883
00:34:34,733 --> 00:34:36,720
just to retain some of that biomass,

884
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:39,283
it takes so long to
accumulate in those stands.

885
00:34:40,410 --> 00:34:42,490
So if we wanna balance kind of this idea

886
00:34:42,490 --> 00:34:46,310
of lots of big trees that
store a lot of carbon,

887
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:47,143
but at the same time,

888
00:34:47,143 --> 00:34:49,780
we want forests that have vigorous trees

889
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,539
that are sequestering
and kind of going through

890
00:34:52,539 --> 00:34:57,000
that clock that I showed from
poles to small sawtimber,

891
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,510
doing some combination of both.

892
00:34:58,510 --> 00:34:59,850
And again, this is where my bias

893
00:34:59,850 --> 00:35:01,960
as a silviculturist and
forester comes through

894
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,230
in that when we're managing sugarbushes

895
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:06,230
and thinking about production,

896
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:08,260
it's not just about kind
of maximizing production

897
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:09,093
on the current trees,

898
00:35:09,093 --> 00:35:12,310
but also finding ways both
to enhance habitat values,

899
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:14,780
so kind of diversifying
the structure out there,

900
00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:17,930
but also recruiting and
regenerating kind of future cohorts

901
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:19,670
of maple and other species.

902
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:22,280
And so one technique someone might use

903
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,260
to try to balance both accelerating

904
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:27,040
that large tree component
while at the same time,

905
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,690
increasing resilience
and increasing diversity,

906
00:35:29,690 --> 00:35:32,150
as well as sequestration rates would be

907
00:35:32,150 --> 00:35:34,918
to do some combination
of crop-tree release.

908
00:35:34,918 --> 00:35:37,100
So 30 to 70 trees per acre.

909
00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:41,230
This would be kind of a
medium sawtimber stand.

910
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:42,660
And then in between those,

911
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:44,380
creating gaps that actually are being used

912
00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:46,880
to recruit new cohorts
of maple, other species.

913
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,870
And so really thinking about

914
00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:50,980
kind of the overall long-term
dynamics of that stand,

915
00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:52,740
even though those areas
you're regenerating,

916
00:35:52,740 --> 00:35:55,113
obviously can't be tapped for some time.

917
00:35:56,340 --> 00:35:59,090
And so, how much should I
actually be thinking about

918
00:35:59,090 --> 00:36:00,533
in terms of stand stocking?

919
00:36:01,499 --> 00:36:02,900
As we know, that the highest stocking,

920
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,060
if you pack 'em in, right?

921
00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:05,830
This picture here on the left,

922
00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:08,110
that is wall to wall carbon.

923
00:36:08,110 --> 00:36:10,860
If I just look at the world
through the lens of carbon,

924
00:36:11,850 --> 00:36:13,230
this is ideal, right?

925
00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:15,270
Just wall to wall aboveground carbon.

926
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:20,100
And so this is high
stocking, but as we all know,

927
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:22,000
that situation on the left there,

928
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,050
if you can picture what
the tree crowns look like,

929
00:36:24,050 --> 00:36:26,790
both their size, kind
of the tree level vigor,

930
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:29,870
as well as the individual
tree level sap yield,

931
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:32,510
that high density is
not an ideal scenario.

932
00:36:32,510 --> 00:36:35,250
On the flip side, we know if we want big,

933
00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:36,610
large, healthy crowns,

934
00:36:36,610 --> 00:36:38,470
we could grow trees by themselves outside,

935
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:41,362
out in the field, but
we're dealing with forest.

936
00:36:41,362 --> 00:36:44,460
And so what we're often
doing is trying to build

937
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:45,540
in this kind of compromise

938
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:47,330
between really high density conditions

939
00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:51,320
that might maximize how many
trees I can put a tap into,

940
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,153
but at the tree level,

941
00:36:52,153 --> 00:36:54,400
those trees are not doing very well.

942
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,600
As well as kind of maximize
the tree level, that vigor,

943
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,730
and find some compromise
that might actually work

944
00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:02,550
in terms of stand level carbon storage,

945
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:04,610
number of tappable trees, and importantly,

946
00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:07,080
long-term vigor
regeneration opportunities.

947
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,990
And so when we look at how this translates

948
00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:10,570
into kind of our stocking guides

949
00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:13,280
and thinking through
management recommendations,

950
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,160
really in terms of the balance
between these two extremes,

951
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,690
it really corresponds to anywhere

952
00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:21,050
from 60 to 90 square feet
per acre of basal area,

953
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:24,060
which really is between the B line,

954
00:37:24,060 --> 00:37:26,260
partway up to the A line
on a stocking guide.

955
00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:28,600
So what we're looking at

956
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,090
and many of you are familiar with this,

957
00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:32,970
some who graduated from UVM Forestry,

958
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:34,930
I think you have to get this
tattooed on your forearm,

959
00:37:34,930 --> 00:37:37,520
very key guidance for
the rest of your life

960
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,010
in this region, is a stocking guide

961
00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:42,210
Bill Leak put together
for Northern hardwoods

962
00:37:42,210 --> 00:37:44,490
that again is just showing
kind of these different zones

963
00:37:44,490 --> 00:37:47,620
of potential stocking for hardwood forest

964
00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:50,580
that again is often translated
into sugarbush management

965
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:52,470
in terms of what we're doing out there.

966
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:54,433
And so we have these zones that,

967
00:37:55,310 --> 00:37:56,870
above the A line overstocked.

968
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:59,760
And so the tree and stand
level growth is suboptimal,

969
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,700
even though, again,

970
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,210
you're packing that for us with trees.

971
00:38:03,210 --> 00:38:05,400
And if it's all maple,
you're packing it with maple.

972
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,350
If they're the right diameter,

973
00:38:06,350 --> 00:38:07,530
that could have a tap in them,

974
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:09,260
but obviously there's
some compromises there

975
00:38:09,260 --> 00:38:11,700
in terms of long-term
stability of those trees

976
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:12,813
and of that carbon.

977
00:38:14,399 --> 00:38:15,232
Where we're often shooting for

978
00:38:15,232 --> 00:38:16,630
is kind of between that A and B line.

979
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:18,480
So well-stocked or fully stocked stand

980
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,080
where we're kind of compromising

981
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,660
between maximum tree level growth

982
00:38:22,660 --> 00:38:24,710
and kind of overstock conditions.

983
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:27,340
So trying to keep that site
fully occupied and growing.

984
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:29,080
And then these understock conditions

985
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,180
that might have really good tree growth,

986
00:38:31,180 --> 00:38:33,573
but you're not fully utilizing the site.

987
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:36,310
What I'm gonna do here
is I'm gonna take data

988
00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:38,670
from seven sugarbushes that
we've been working with

989
00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:41,850
as part of a project
evaluating bird-friendly maple

990
00:38:41,850 --> 00:38:44,120
properties and some other
sugarbushes in Vermont,

991
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,990
and just show you how those plot on this,

992
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:48,080
both in terms of their stocking,

993
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,880
as well as in terms of their carbon.

994
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,153
And so what I have here,

995
00:38:52,153 --> 00:38:54,503
each dot is a different sugarbush.

996
00:38:55,342 --> 00:38:56,360
And then I have this
kind of as a call-out,

997
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,340
the amount of metric
tons of carbon per acre

998
00:38:58,340 --> 00:39:00,400
that each of those sugarbushes have.

999
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,210
And so you can see as you would expect,

1000
00:39:02,210 --> 00:39:04,420
as you go from lower
stocking to higher stocking,

1001
00:39:04,420 --> 00:39:05,790
the amount of carbon goes up.

1002
00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:08,690
But as I mentioned, these
higher stocking stands

1003
00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:10,370
are starting to approach a condition

1004
00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:13,880
that certainly is gonna be undesirable

1005
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,340
in terms of tree level of vigor,

1006
00:39:15,340 --> 00:39:18,260
even though like, if I were
to pay for carbon today,

1007
00:39:18,260 --> 00:39:19,590
that ownership is actually gonna get

1008
00:39:19,590 --> 00:39:21,560
the most amount of payment.

1009
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,670
One of these dots is actually

1010
00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:25,010
a very well-managed maple research center,

1011
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:26,510
but I won't point it out,

1012
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:29,450
but it's just wonderful how well the data

1013
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:31,110
reflects that place.

1014
00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:32,750
And so what we're often talking about

1015
00:39:32,750 --> 00:39:35,150
in terms of the management is
we're trying to keep things

1016
00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:36,730
in this area here.

1017
00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:38,170
And what I think is worth pointing out

1018
00:39:38,170 --> 00:39:39,380
is that if you wanna get

1019
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:41,910
into the California Air Resources Board

1020
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:45,460
compliance carbon markets,
so the cap and trade markets,

1021
00:39:45,460 --> 00:39:48,230
this is actually the baseline they use

1022
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:51,497
for New England for hardwood forest.

1023
00:39:51,497 --> 00:39:55,090
And so essentially if your
forest is already there,

1024
00:39:55,090 --> 00:39:57,340
you're gonna get paid actually
for kind of that carbon,

1025
00:39:57,340 --> 00:39:59,850
that stored carbon,
storage and sequestration.

1026
00:39:59,850 --> 00:40:01,960
If not, then kind of
your future management

1027
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,660
needs to be kind of above and maintained

1028
00:40:03,660 --> 00:40:04,730
above that baseline.

1029
00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:07,680
So I'm just pointing to some
of the compromises that exist

1030
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,950
if we're kind of pushing for
kind of high carbon conditions,

1031
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:14,023
depending on the criteria
used for evaluating that.

1032
00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:19,850
Last chance to deal with
this nefarious menti.com.

1033
00:40:19,850 --> 00:40:21,260
So if folks wanna go back to that,

1034
00:40:21,260 --> 00:40:23,450
and I'm gonna, it's the same code

1035
00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:25,100
and I'm just gonna advance

1036
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:27,840
so we can go to the next question.

1037
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,400
So we have three tree species here,

1038
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,000
one of which is Abby's favorite,

1039
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,276
one of which is mine, at
least in the hardwood group.

1040
00:40:36,276 --> 00:40:39,640
And so if we have, we know
who the early answer was,

1041
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,470
if we have three species;

1042
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:44,700
yellow birch, red maple, paper birch,

1043
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:45,830
and they're the exact same size,

1044
00:40:45,830 --> 00:40:48,570
like they are the exact same diameter,

1045
00:40:48,570 --> 00:40:50,860
exact same volume,

1046
00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:53,410
which of those three species

1047
00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:55,433
is gonna have more carbon in it?

1048
00:40:58,130 --> 00:41:00,463
Which of those species is gonna win?

1049
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:06,633
A little bit more competitive
quiz today around this one.

1050
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:10,323
Oh, Abby's bias is being
felt across the group.

1051
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,330
I'll give folks another 30 seconds to lob

1052
00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:19,483
a educated guess at this one.

1053
00:41:22,090 --> 00:41:27,060
All right, so as that last
possible answer is coming in,

1054
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:28,500
I will point out that the majority

1055
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:30,470
is not right in this case.

1056
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:32,850
And what we're looking at
here are three species,

1057
00:41:32,850 --> 00:41:36,530
two of which have pretty
similar wood densities;

1058
00:41:36,530 --> 00:41:37,550
yellow birch and paper birch.

1059
00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:40,660
With yellow birch of course
being a notch superior.

1060
00:41:40,660 --> 00:41:43,020
And then red maple, as
we all commonly refer to

1061
00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:45,880
as soft maple or soft maple group,

1062
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,370
is a little bit less dense wood.

1063
00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:49,640
And so, if they're the exact same size,

1064
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,330
it really comes down to what's
the density of that wood.

1065
00:41:53,330 --> 00:41:54,260
'Cause that's really gonna translate

1066
00:41:54,260 --> 00:41:55,610
into how much does that tree weigh,

1067
00:41:55,610 --> 00:42:00,210
So yellow birch, and this is
the winner in this contest

1068
00:42:00,210 --> 00:42:02,910
as well as in many others.

1069
00:42:02,910 --> 00:42:04,330
Sorry, Abby.

1070
00:42:04,330 --> 00:42:07,413
So we will go back to
the presentation here.

1071
00:42:07,413 --> 00:42:08,650
And so if I'm managing my sugarbush,

1072
00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:11,610
and I'm trying to manage different species

1073
00:42:11,610 --> 00:42:13,300
as it relates to carbon,

1074
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:15,930
of course, sugar maple is awesome,

1075
00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:20,930
because it's awesome for syrup
production, no better tree,

1076
00:42:21,450 --> 00:42:23,250
but there are aspects of
it that make it awesome

1077
00:42:23,250 --> 00:42:24,410
from a carbon perspective.

1078
00:42:24,410 --> 00:42:27,296
It's very dense wood,
has a higher wood density

1079
00:42:27,296 --> 00:42:28,490
than yellow birch.

1080
00:42:28,490 --> 00:42:30,790
It's long lived, so not
only is it dense wood,

1081
00:42:32,172 --> 00:42:33,460
but it lives for a long
time and it gets big.

1082
00:42:33,460 --> 00:42:37,310
And so all of those
attributes really bode well,

1083
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:38,780
whereas the species like beach,

1084
00:42:38,780 --> 00:42:40,690
it's got dense wood but it's not gonna get

1085
00:42:40,690 --> 00:42:42,290
to be a big tree in your forest.

1086
00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:44,390
Just give em beach park disease impacts

1087
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:46,740
unless some of the folks
that are there logging

1088
00:42:46,740 --> 00:42:49,260
are from outside of the
range of beach park disease

1089
00:42:49,260 --> 00:42:50,822
at this point.

1090
00:42:50,822 --> 00:42:52,280
And so when we think of trying to favor

1091
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,380
that non-maple component,

1092
00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:56,250
so if we're trying to
have that land certified

1093
00:42:56,250 --> 00:42:58,360
and you kind of meet organic criteria,

1094
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,170
so we're looking for how do we build

1095
00:43:00,170 --> 00:43:01,660
in that non-maple component.

1096
00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:02,967
Part of that we can count red maple

1097
00:43:02,967 --> 00:43:05,730
and I'll give red maple
an accolade in a second,

1098
00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:07,510
but we're trying to find
the other tree species

1099
00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:08,590
that have high wood density.

1100
00:43:08,590 --> 00:43:11,670
And so things like yellow
birch work really well,

1101
00:43:11,670 --> 00:43:13,340
red oak, red maple,

1102
00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:15,540
basswood does not have
as high wood density,

1103
00:43:15,540 --> 00:43:18,840
but this list of species
doesn't just correspond

1104
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,530
to wood density.

1105
00:43:20,530 --> 00:43:22,500
It also corresponds to
what might be built to last

1106
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:23,333
for the future.

1107
00:43:23,333 --> 00:43:25,420
And so basswood as a species

1108
00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:28,650
actually is quite adapted to
warm and dry temperatures.

1109
00:43:28,650 --> 00:43:32,620
Even though we associate
it with our mesic forest,

1110
00:43:32,620 --> 00:43:35,980
it's quite suited for some
of the climate regimes

1111
00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:37,340
and temperature regimes of the future.

1112
00:43:37,340 --> 00:43:39,380
Those that are familiar with basswood

1113
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:42,010
going all the way to the prairie margin

1114
00:43:42,010 --> 00:43:43,000
in the Eastern U.S.

1115
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,920
And then red maple,
tremendously plastic species,

1116
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,470
and really well adaptable as well.

1117
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:50,810
So what species are out there to last

1118
00:43:50,810 --> 00:43:52,880
and also might provide
some resilience over time.

1119
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,480
And so sugar maple, great choice,

1120
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,790
but thinking also about other
trees that are gonna grow

1121
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:58,803
for a long time and get quite large.

1122
00:43:59,710 --> 00:44:02,310
Besides the living, there's
a lot of opportunity

1123
00:44:02,310 --> 00:44:05,653
for improvement when it
comes to deadwood carbon.

1124
00:44:06,728 --> 00:44:08,900
And so again, oftentimes this
is actually less of an issue

1125
00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:10,730
depending on how the
sugarbush is being managed

1126
00:44:10,730 --> 00:44:14,720
and that there's retention of cavity trees

1127
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,850
if they're still able to produce yield

1128
00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:20,010
and certainly still alive.

1129
00:44:20,010 --> 00:44:22,700
But what we tend to see over time is that,

1130
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:24,410
snags falling on lines,

1131
00:44:24,410 --> 00:44:27,120
dead wood creating
obstacles in the ground,

1132
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,520
that historic management
has really led to us

1133
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,100
removing a lot of the dead
wood from our forests.

1134
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:35,160
And so this figure on
the left is just looking

1135
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,060
at standing dead wood basal area.

1136
00:44:37,060 --> 00:44:38,660
And on the left, this is kind of the range

1137
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:41,410
that's typically found
an old growth forest.

1138
00:44:41,410 --> 00:44:43,410
And this is what's found in second growth.

1139
00:44:43,410 --> 00:44:44,560
So unmanaged forest.

1140
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,430
So what you're seeing a lot of these trees

1141
00:44:46,430 --> 00:44:49,076
are dying from self thinnings.

1142
00:44:49,076 --> 00:44:50,290
So they're pretty small
snags, but nevertheless,

1143
00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:51,920
there are a lot of them.

1144
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,020
And then this area here
are actually stands

1145
00:44:54,020 --> 00:44:55,330
that are managed for timber production

1146
00:44:55,330 --> 00:44:56,580
using single tree selection.

1147
00:44:56,580 --> 00:44:59,000
So those that have done marking

1148
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,350
for single tree selection before,

1149
00:45:00,350 --> 00:45:04,020
and even thinking about
future trees for tapping,

1150
00:45:04,020 --> 00:45:05,680
often we're taking out the low vigor,

1151
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,133
poor quality cavity trees first, right?

1152
00:45:08,133 --> 00:45:10,460
What we call the UGS, or
unacceptable growing stock.

1153
00:45:10,460 --> 00:45:13,510
And so we often eliminate the opportunity

1154
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:16,981
for those kinds of often
large dead wood stores

1155
00:45:16,981 --> 00:45:17,814
(indistinct).

1156
00:45:17,814 --> 00:45:20,450
And so what we're looking
for in terms of trying

1157
00:45:20,450 --> 00:45:23,653
to increase this is
that retaining anywhere,

1158
00:45:25,125 --> 00:45:27,220
two per acre above of
trees that have cavities

1159
00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:28,280
that are standing dead trees,

1160
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,387
obviously those do pose
risks to lines and so forth.

1161
00:45:31,387 --> 00:45:33,020
And so trying to balance that.

1162
00:45:33,020 --> 00:45:36,360
And likewise, down dead
wood in the ground,

1163
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,230
those that maybe have
historically collected

1164
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:41,170
that for firewood and other uses,

1165
00:45:41,170 --> 00:45:42,600
or just kind of got it out of the way,

1166
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,520
because it was kind of a nuisance,

1167
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,270
trying to actually work with that.

1168
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:50,420
So there's a question about ash.

1169
00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:51,850
And I think that the
real issue with that one

1170
00:45:51,850 --> 00:45:54,583
is ash is fantastic, grows to huge sizes.

1171
00:45:56,464 --> 00:45:57,297
The challenge is that,

1172
00:45:57,297 --> 00:45:59,260
how is that carbon built to last

1173
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:01,840
with emerald ash bore,
kind of very concerning

1174
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,050
about kind of the future
opportunity of that species

1175
00:46:04,050 --> 00:46:07,050
to be kind of big tree carbon
stocks out in the forest.

1176
00:46:07,050 --> 00:46:09,270
And so that's the main reason
it didn't make my list,

1177
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:11,650
but it would be a great species as well,

1178
00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:13,553
based on that question in the chat.

1179
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,960
So the last piece I'll mention
about active management

1180
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,470
is that if the goal is to
have long-term option options

1181
00:46:21,470 --> 00:46:24,150
for forest carbon storage in the woods,

1182
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:26,840
there are two key bottlenecks
that we need to address

1183
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,850
in some sugarbushes and more
broadly in many forests,

1184
00:46:29,850 --> 00:46:33,400
and that if you have kind
of wall to wall barberry

1185
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,930
or garlic mustard, or buckthorn,

1186
00:46:36,930 --> 00:46:40,190
beneath like really great
aboveground carbon storage,

1187
00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:43,420
you essentially don't have
a very stable carbon base

1188
00:46:43,420 --> 00:46:45,320
in terms of the potential for replacement

1189
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,270
of that aboveground carbon in those trees

1190
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:48,360
with future regeneration.

1191
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,250
And so there are some programs
being developed right now

1192
00:46:51,250 --> 00:46:53,290
on the family forest carbon program,

1193
00:46:53,290 --> 00:46:54,540
that one of the practices

1194
00:46:55,957 --> 00:46:57,540
they're thinking of
incentivizing landowners to do

1195
00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:59,650
is controlling invasives
and giving them payment

1196
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:01,310
for the carbon gains from that.

1197
00:47:01,310 --> 00:47:03,820
So there's really many
that are recognizing

1198
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:06,660
the impact of invasives on forest carbon.

1199
00:47:06,660 --> 00:47:11,660
Likewise, this beautiful maple
stand in Shelburne, Vermont,

1200
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:16,230
you can see has tremendous
regeneration potential,

1201
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:19,070
but you can also tell
how high the snow gets.

1202
00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:20,690
Basically any seedling
that gets above that

1203
00:47:20,690 --> 00:47:22,070
is getting mowed down to this level.

1204
00:47:22,070 --> 00:47:24,400
And so even though there's
a lot of seedlings,

1205
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,700
the ability for those
trees to grow and develop

1206
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,060
into saplings and future
aboveground storage

1207
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:31,370
is being diminished by deer.

1208
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:34,330
And so controlling that is also critical

1209
00:47:34,330 --> 00:47:36,650
as we think through kind
of trying to maintain

1210
00:47:36,650 --> 00:47:38,770
those stocks on the ground.

1211
00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:40,960
So the last point I'll make is that,

1212
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:42,500
when we cut wood from the forest,

1213
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:44,180
it does reduce carbon stocks,

1214
00:47:44,180 --> 00:47:46,410
but that's kind of a stand
level look at things.

1215
00:47:46,410 --> 00:47:49,010
If you zoom out to a broader
level, like a region,

1216
00:47:49,010 --> 00:47:51,893
and again, my bias being
the region I work in,

1217
00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:55,339
that temporary reduction in carbon

1218
00:47:55,339 --> 00:47:56,810
really is critical to
putting a context of,

1219
00:47:56,810 --> 00:47:57,920
what is that region doing

1220
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,330
in terms of carbon
sequestration and storage.

1221
00:48:00,330 --> 00:48:03,780
And so all I have here is normalized

1222
00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:05,770
to basically make everything be relative

1223
00:48:05,770 --> 00:48:08,990
to how much wood is being
removed on a cubic foot basis

1224
00:48:08,990 --> 00:48:10,350
on the six New England states.

1225
00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:13,050
And so, on average in New England,

1226
00:48:13,050 --> 00:48:15,270
for every cubic foot of wood removed

1227
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:17,530
are growing at 1.8 cubic feet.

1228
00:48:17,530 --> 00:48:19,930
And so essentially, even
though carbon storage

1229
00:48:19,930 --> 00:48:21,410
is being reduced in some areas

1230
00:48:21,410 --> 00:48:23,830
we're actually gaining more
carbon than we're losing.

1231
00:48:23,830 --> 00:48:24,970
And so, at a regional scale,

1232
00:48:24,970 --> 00:48:26,620
depending on what state we're in.

1233
00:48:27,460 --> 00:48:29,410
even though somebody might say that person

1234
00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:31,710
on that loader is taking
carbon off of that site,

1235
00:48:31,710 --> 00:48:34,200
yes they are, but collectively,

1236
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,530
the impact of our
management is quite minimal.

1237
00:48:36,530 --> 00:48:40,370
And then actually we are
kind of a net carbon store

1238
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:42,010
and sequester as a region,

1239
00:48:42,010 --> 00:48:44,520
largely 'cause we don't harvest as much

1240
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:45,783
relative to other areas.

1241
00:48:47,277 --> 00:48:49,627
And so, we're not kind
of impacting it as much.

1242
00:48:50,925 --> 00:48:53,790
So I mentioned passive and active

1243
00:48:53,790 --> 00:48:55,260
as kind of two separate categories,

1244
00:48:55,260 --> 00:48:57,700
but within your property,
and even within a landscape,

1245
00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:58,610
we need both.

1246
00:48:58,610 --> 00:49:00,810
Really there is a need
to both set aside areas

1247
00:49:00,810 --> 00:49:02,270
and not manage them or maintain areas

1248
00:49:02,270 --> 00:49:04,542
that have been set aside and allow those

1249
00:49:04,542 --> 00:49:06,630
to continue to accumulate and
be areas of carbon storage.

1250
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:09,580
But we also need areas where
active carbon management

1251
00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:11,830
is occurring to create
those multiple age classes

1252
00:49:11,830 --> 00:49:13,180
and those resilience conditions

1253
00:49:13,180 --> 00:49:15,360
that actually can
withstand future stressors

1254
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,260
and keep carbon in the woods

1255
00:49:18,260 --> 00:49:19,870
and kind of out of the atmosphere.

1256
00:49:19,870 --> 00:49:21,630
Likewise, within a property,

1257
00:49:21,630 --> 00:49:24,140
it can be your entire property
that you decide not to cut

1258
00:49:24,140 --> 00:49:25,680
or to do active carbon management,

1259
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,890
or it can be subsets within the sugarbush.

1260
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:31,620
I might not do any harvesting
or I might do some harvesting

1261
00:49:31,620 --> 00:49:34,510
that enhances carbon,
and other areas I don't.

1262
00:49:34,510 --> 00:49:36,470
But the key is that, this can occur

1263
00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:37,710
both at multiple scales.

1264
00:49:37,710 --> 00:49:39,450
And the main goal is that

1265
00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:41,730
we are not just kind of
putting all of our eggs

1266
00:49:41,730 --> 00:49:46,350
in like max carbon storage
across the landscape

1267
00:49:46,350 --> 00:49:47,220
without any management.

1268
00:49:47,220 --> 00:49:50,500
We need that mosaic of
conditions, both for biodiversity,

1269
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:52,940
like many species that rely on conditions

1270
00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:54,770
other than young forest,

1271
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:56,113
other than young forest,

1272
00:49:56,113 --> 00:49:57,107
other than old forest, we need both.

1273
00:49:57,107 --> 00:50:00,120
And certainly for resilience standpoint.

1274
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,760
Key take-homes, and then
I'll switch to the question

1275
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:07,423
that somebody has in the chat.

1276
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,960
If nothing else, keep it forest.

1277
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,640
There is nothing better again on land

1278
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:13,637
for carbon than forest.

1279
00:50:13,637 --> 00:50:16,390
And so it's a fantastic time
to be in the tree business

1280
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:18,810
because it's finally being valued

1281
00:50:18,810 --> 00:50:20,670
beyond the many amazing things

1282
00:50:20,670 --> 00:50:21,990
they've already been doing for society.

1283
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:23,520
Folks are now seeing just how important

1284
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:24,520
they are for carbon.

1285
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,440
And so it's really in our hands
and many landowners' hands

1286
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,800
to make sure that benefit remains.

1287
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,820
And in some cases, hopefully
you're getting payment

1288
00:50:31,820 --> 00:50:33,070
for that benefit.

1289
00:50:33,070 --> 00:50:36,400
And so when we're thinking
about managing sugarbushes,

1290
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,270
protecting that soil carbon pools,

1291
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:39,910
so using best management practices,

1292
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:41,070
when you're accessing that site,

1293
00:50:41,070 --> 00:50:43,060
trying to minimize disturbance to soil.

1294
00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:45,080
And likewise, when you're harvesting

1295
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,349
using kind of approaches
that are carbon informed.

1296
00:50:48,349 --> 00:50:49,340
And the key thing about carbon

1297
00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:51,810
that's a bit bewildering to those of us

1298
00:50:51,810 --> 00:50:53,970
that are students of
the history of forestry

1299
00:50:53,970 --> 00:50:55,870
and other natural resource management,

1300
00:50:55,870 --> 00:50:59,910
is that we're seeing in some circles,

1301
00:50:59,910 --> 00:51:01,600
both with environmental groups,

1302
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,810
as well as with some programs

1303
00:51:03,810 --> 00:51:06,070
that it's really pushing landowners

1304
00:51:06,070 --> 00:51:08,950
and pushing regions to
try to maximize carbon.

1305
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:11,850
This is kind of the
objective above all others.

1306
00:51:11,850 --> 00:51:13,720
And we know from so many times over

1307
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,460
that anytime we try to
maximize one single objective,

1308
00:51:16,460 --> 00:51:18,320
there's gonna be tremendous
trade offs with others.

1309
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,060
And in the context of carbon,

1310
00:51:20,060 --> 00:51:21,050
those trade-offs are gonna be

1311
00:51:21,050 --> 00:51:22,800
both bio-diversity benefits,

1312
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,990
certainly benefits related
to resilience and critically,

1313
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:28,120
there's gonna be some social trade-offs

1314
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:29,690
and environmental injustice trade-offs

1315
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:32,400
where we're basically still using wood,

1316
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,810
but not using it in our backyard.

1317
00:51:33,810 --> 00:51:35,810
And so what are those
impacts both in terms

1318
00:51:35,810 --> 00:51:38,250
of how much carbon it takes
to get wood products to us,

1319
00:51:38,250 --> 00:51:40,680
'cause we're no longer
producing them locally,

1320
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,180
but also what are those impacts in terms

1321
00:51:42,180 --> 00:51:43,880
of the local communities that we are now

1322
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,130
pushing those demands to.

1323
00:51:45,130 --> 00:51:49,200
And so, really critical to
get excited about carbon,

1324
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,620
but recognize it as one of many objectives

1325
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:53,680
in this multi-dimensional
awesome ecosystem

1326
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,320
that we get to work with.

1327
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:56,420
I'll stop there,

1328
00:51:56,420 --> 00:52:00,724
and I can take a look at the chat.

1329
00:52:00,724 --> 00:52:02,871
There's a question about,

1330
00:52:02,871 --> 00:52:04,040
and I can turn my presentation off

1331
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,103
so you can see me squirm.

1332
00:52:08,850 --> 00:52:11,500
So the question about what
gaps would I recommend

1333
00:52:11,500 --> 00:52:12,690
for even in sugarwoods

1334
00:52:12,690 --> 00:52:15,280
to the recommended uneven aged condition?

1335
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,800
Yeah, I think the real
challenge with the browse issue

1336
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,900
as it relates to the creating
regeneration openings

1337
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:24,890
in areas where they aren't is that,

1338
00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:26,100
if we have small openings,

1339
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,580
those can quickly be
like honed in on by deer.

1340
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:34,530
And so regeneration is often
often gonna be impacted

1341
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:36,900
pretty heavily in those areas.

1342
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:39,730
And so when we're thinking
about creating gaps

1343
00:52:39,730 --> 00:52:41,880
and in terms of gap sizes,

1344
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:42,970
in rich stands,

1345
00:52:42,970 --> 00:52:47,493
I'm really talking about
quarter-acre openings and less,

1346
00:52:48,554 --> 00:52:52,290
and often thinking about
kind of that size class,

1347
00:52:52,290 --> 00:52:53,950
at least providing some
recruitment opportunity

1348
00:52:53,950 --> 00:52:54,840
for yellow birch.

1349
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,760
Obviously maple, if it's a
rich stand is gonna do well.

1350
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:58,770
And so to your point,

1351
00:52:58,770 --> 00:53:02,960
it is gonna kind of erode some
of that non-maple component.

1352
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:04,610
And so if that really is,

1353
00:53:04,610 --> 00:53:05,970
if you're working with a site that has

1354
00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:09,040
a low non-maple component to begin with,

1355
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,890
then pushing that gap size up a bit

1356
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:13,443
by a two-third acre,

1357
00:53:14,370 --> 00:53:17,418
or even a half acre with
some retention in it

1358
00:53:17,418 --> 00:53:18,251
would be one way to make sure

1359
00:53:18,251 --> 00:53:19,270
you're getting that mix of species,

1360
00:53:19,270 --> 00:53:20,310
even though I recognize that

1361
00:53:20,310 --> 00:53:23,770
that is gonna reduce taps per acre.

1362
00:53:23,770 --> 00:53:25,930
When we think about
overall ecosystem health

1363
00:53:25,930 --> 00:53:27,800
and kind of what we're trying to do

1364
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,130
with some stipulation of
25% non-sugar maple species,

1365
00:53:31,130 --> 00:53:32,830
the goal there is that,

1366
00:53:32,830 --> 00:53:35,290
we know that this is a forested condition

1367
00:53:35,290 --> 00:53:37,930
that was never 100% maple naturally.

1368
00:53:37,930 --> 00:53:41,000
So in terms of whether it's
native insects and diseases

1369
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,800
or wildlife species,

1370
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,623
they're involved for trying to deal with,

1371
00:53:46,850 --> 00:53:48,640
maintain that diversity
out there in a sugarbush.

1372
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,040
It's a total trade-off with maximum taps,

1373
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,150
but that stipulation
is there for a reason,

1374
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:56,110
for the other benefits
that it's gonna provide

1375
00:53:56,110 --> 00:53:58,340
besides maximizing that one objective.

1376
00:53:58,340 --> 00:54:01,140
The real issue that
I'm thinking of though,

1377
00:54:01,140 --> 00:54:03,400
if it's an area with a high deer density,

1378
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:04,460
the challenge like I said,

1379
00:54:04,460 --> 00:54:05,980
of all of a sudden creating gaps in areas

1380
00:54:05,980 --> 00:54:07,650
where there's not many,

1381
00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:09,260
you can have kind of the deer just hone in

1382
00:54:09,260 --> 00:54:10,850
on those spots and have big impact.

1383
00:54:10,850 --> 00:54:14,280
And so whether there's
ability to leave tops

1384
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:15,680
and just create a bit of a mess out there

1385
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:16,930
and leave some of that,

1386
00:54:16,930 --> 00:54:19,420
the top wood and the
carbon in those areas,

1387
00:54:19,420 --> 00:54:21,460
particularly given you're not gonna be

1388
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:23,660
necessarily running
lines right to that spot

1389
00:54:24,667 --> 00:54:25,640
for quite some time,

1390
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,873
but doing things to try to
minimize impact in those areas.

1391
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,840
So, basically an argument
for moving saplings

1392
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,040
from one location to
another new sugarbush,

1393
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,500
so yeah, I think planting larger stock

1394
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:41,840
if you really are dealing
with regeneration issues

1395
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:42,740
and herbivore issues.

1396
00:54:42,740 --> 00:54:46,550
Yeah, I mean, if you can get
bigger material into those,

1397
00:54:46,550 --> 00:54:48,790
obviously there's a cost, can be a cost.

1398
00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:51,970
You can certainly do
some of it on your own,

1399
00:54:51,970 --> 00:54:54,130
but there's a labor cost, I guess to that.

1400
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:55,680
That was gonna be an issue too.

1401
00:54:57,500 --> 00:54:59,223
Are there questions folks have?

1402
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:01,733
- [Mark] Hey, Tony, thanks very much.

1403
00:55:01,733 --> 00:55:03,320
That was terrific.

1404
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,540
I just allowed people to unmute their mics

1405
00:55:05,540 --> 00:55:08,050
if people wanna ask a question.

1406
00:55:08,050 --> 00:55:11,110
- Yeah, and there's a hand
raise function if you want to,

1407
00:55:11,110 --> 00:55:12,160
that I think might...

1408
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,630
Yeah, I can keep...

1409
00:55:13,630 --> 00:55:14,790
If folks wanna do it that way.

1410
00:55:14,790 --> 00:55:16,090
However, they wanna do it.

1411
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:20,760
- [Mark] Guess, while people
are thinking of questions,

1412
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,120
I'll ask a question, and it
kind of relates to also a plug.

1413
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,230
The last session in our webinar series

1414
00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:31,020
is about forest land tax programs.

1415
00:55:31,020 --> 00:55:33,710
And I'm curious if you think the programs

1416
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:34,660
that you're familiar with,

1417
00:55:34,660 --> 00:55:37,440
I'm assuming you're familiar
with Vermont's UVA program,

1418
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,200
but maybe others around Northeast,

1419
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,620
do you think they allow
for some of the issues

1420
00:55:44,620 --> 00:55:47,611
that you talked about,
managing for carbon as well

1421
00:55:47,611 --> 00:55:49,860
as more traditional forest products?

1422
00:55:49,860 --> 00:55:52,260
Do you think there's enough
of an incentive to do that,

1423
00:55:52,260 --> 00:55:55,450
or do you think there
needs to be an updating

1424
00:55:55,450 --> 00:55:57,943
to how those programs are run?

1425
00:55:58,830 --> 00:56:01,110
- Well, given this is recorded,

1426
00:56:01,110 --> 00:56:01,943
I'm not sure I'll add.

1427
00:56:01,943 --> 00:56:06,943
So yeah, I think the challenge
with our forest tax laws

1428
00:56:07,010 --> 00:56:09,053
and some of those programs is that,

1429
00:56:09,930 --> 00:56:12,518
they're often focused on that landowner

1430
00:56:12,518 --> 00:56:13,351
have a management plan.

1431
00:56:13,351 --> 00:56:14,184
All of you're familiar with that

1432
00:56:14,184 --> 00:56:15,767
where they're doing some
periodic timber harvesting.

1433
00:56:15,767 --> 00:56:18,300
And so I think one of
the bigger challenges

1434
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:20,960
is that many landowners aren't excited

1435
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,209
about the timber harvest part.

1436
00:56:23,209 --> 00:56:26,270
And so, it's attracting
maybe a subset of landowners

1437
00:56:26,270 --> 00:56:28,060
that maybe might be excited about that,

1438
00:56:28,060 --> 00:56:29,820
or it might be more
consistent with their goals

1439
00:56:29,820 --> 00:56:32,060
or folks who are enrolling in it.

1440
00:56:32,060 --> 00:56:34,160
And then they're having to do harvest,

1441
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:35,840
but it might not be
totally consistent with

1442
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,130
what they're excited about
or they somehow get away

1443
00:56:38,130 --> 00:56:40,170
with not harvesting for a while

1444
00:56:40,170 --> 00:56:43,000
and are in some cases abusing the program,

1445
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:43,990
what is intended to do.

1446
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:45,950
And so there's certainly some discussion

1447
00:56:45,950 --> 00:56:50,060
about those programs
evolving to include areas

1448
00:56:50,060 --> 00:56:53,240
that are set aside just
to become old forest.

1449
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:54,970
So provide both that carbon benefit,

1450
00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:57,180
as well as that habitat
benefit that's lacking,

1451
00:56:57,180 --> 00:56:59,520
kinda that really old forest condition.

1452
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,300
But the biggest issue with carbon,

1453
00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:03,177
if you wanna incentivize it

1454
00:57:03,177 --> 00:57:06,710
and even get landowners
to get credit for that

1455
00:57:06,710 --> 00:57:08,650
is it often needs to be verifiable.

1456
00:57:08,650 --> 00:57:10,590
And so those of you that are
familiar with carbon markets

1457
00:57:10,590 --> 00:57:11,560
and carbon projects,

1458
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,970
the biggest expense is actually enrolling

1459
00:57:13,970 --> 00:57:15,350
because you need to prove how much carbon

1460
00:57:15,350 --> 00:57:16,183
you have out there.

1461
00:57:16,183 --> 00:57:19,310
And then over time, prove
that you're accumulating

1462
00:57:19,310 --> 00:57:21,880
that carbon and are
doing things consistent

1463
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,520
with what you laid out in the
agreement for carbon payment.

1464
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,020
And so with current
use and other programs,

1465
00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:30,110
I know about the state of Massachusetts

1466
00:57:30,110 --> 00:57:31,900
has been exploring this,

1467
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:34,090
the burden would really
fall onto county foresters

1468
00:57:34,090 --> 00:57:37,450
or service foresters to have
to really be evaluating,

1469
00:57:37,450 --> 00:57:42,430
this person is getting
payment or getting a tax break

1470
00:57:42,430 --> 00:57:44,370
because they're enrolled in this program

1471
00:57:44,370 --> 00:57:47,010
and they're enrolled in
maybe this carbon category.

1472
00:57:47,010 --> 00:57:48,720
And like, we need to go to
that property and make sure

1473
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,320
they aren't actually doing things

1474
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:51,500
that are counter to that objective.

1475
00:57:51,500 --> 00:57:54,680
And so it still adds a layer of complexity

1476
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,450
in terms of being able to actually enforce

1477
00:57:58,450 --> 00:58:00,100
for lack of a better term that folks

1478
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:02,420
are following through on that action.

1479
00:58:02,420 --> 00:58:06,210
And so, there was definitely
some concern about like how,

1480
00:58:06,210 --> 00:58:07,430
there's definitely a lot of interest in it

1481
00:58:07,430 --> 00:58:09,570
and there's movement in the
use value appraisal program

1482
00:58:09,570 --> 00:58:13,330
in Vermont to include
proportion of ownership

1483
00:58:13,330 --> 00:58:14,860
and kind of an old forest designation

1484
00:58:14,860 --> 00:58:17,470
that will allow folks to have portions

1485
00:58:17,470 --> 00:58:20,520
that are gonna be just kind
of set aside passively.

1486
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,560
But currently, there's only
a few states moving that way.

1487
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:23,530
The one thing that is happening

1488
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:25,690
is this family forest carbon program,

1489
00:58:25,690 --> 00:58:28,150
which is money coming from Amazon

1490
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:30,410
for the state of Pennsylvania,
the state of Vermont.

1491
00:58:30,410 --> 00:58:33,670
It's being piloted as a program
to pay family forest owners

1492
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:35,600
for carbon friendly projects.

1493
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:37,750
And there's six practices
that kind of fall

1494
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:39,620
under that umbrella.

1495
00:58:39,620 --> 00:58:42,170
One of which includes
minimizing deer impacts,

1496
00:58:42,170 --> 00:58:45,730
one that includes primarily
just doing low thinning

1497
00:58:45,730 --> 00:58:46,653
of the forest,

1498
00:58:47,595 --> 00:58:49,850
but maintaining a pretty
high stocking level,

1499
00:58:49,850 --> 00:58:53,040
one that includes
removing invasive species,

1500
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,170
and a few other approaches

1501
00:58:55,170 --> 00:58:59,227
that would give land owners
payment for carbon storage

1502
00:58:59,227 --> 00:59:02,260
and kind of over a fairly,

1503
00:59:02,260 --> 00:59:04,420
I think it's a couple
of decade time periods.

1504
00:59:04,420 --> 00:59:05,920
So that might be another option

1505
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,160
that comes on board, Mark,
to help keep forest forest

1506
00:59:11,004 --> 00:59:12,190
and offset those taxes.

1507
00:59:12,190 --> 00:59:13,700
There could be a carbon tax too,

1508
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:15,450
but that's a different discussion.

1509
00:59:15,450 --> 00:59:17,453
So the question comes up about,

1510
00:59:18,420 --> 00:59:19,440
if you're chipping the tops

1511
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:20,560
in down material versus leaving it

1512
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,170
to decay naturally,

1513
00:59:22,170 --> 00:59:25,460
the natural decay is
gonna be a lot slower,

1514
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:27,860
just given kind of how,

1515
00:59:27,860 --> 00:59:29,783
as that tree's decaying,

1516
00:59:31,370 --> 00:59:34,552
first off, that top is
not gonna be kind of,

1517
00:59:34,552 --> 00:59:35,385
there's gonna be parts of it

1518
00:59:35,385 --> 00:59:36,440
that are indirect contact with the ground.

1519
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,200
And so decomposition might
be slower in those areas

1520
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,210
that are elevated off of the soil.

1521
00:59:41,210 --> 00:59:43,330
We're chipping, and
you're kind of exposing

1522
00:59:43,330 --> 00:59:45,770
that carbon, that wood to decomposition

1523
00:59:45,770 --> 00:59:48,022
from many, many sides.

1524
00:59:48,022 --> 00:59:52,070
And so that would cause it to
be broken down a bit faster,

1525
00:59:52,070 --> 00:59:54,980
but both would keep
more carbon in the woods

1526
00:59:54,980 --> 00:59:57,140
than if you took that off the forest.

1527
00:59:57,140 --> 00:59:58,720
But leaving it to decay naturally

1528
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,920
would definitely be a slower pathway.

1529
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,280
And there are several species,

1530
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,610
I know people don't get excited
about fungi all the time,

1531
01:00:06,610 --> 01:00:09,010
but there are several species of fungi

1532
01:00:09,010 --> 01:00:09,930
that are pretty specific

1533
01:00:09,930 --> 01:00:13,523
to like smaller diameter class twigs.

1534
01:00:14,565 --> 01:00:16,750
And so, from a biodiversity standpoint,

1535
01:00:16,750 --> 01:00:18,050
that would provide a bit more habitat

1536
01:00:18,050 --> 01:00:19,950
for some of those native fungi

1537
01:00:19,950 --> 01:00:21,450
that are associated with that.

1538
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:23,513
Good question.

1539
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,230
- [Mark] Great, well, it's a
little after eight o'clock,

1540
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:30,700
so I think we're gonna wanna wrap up.

1541
01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:32,700
Just wanna thank Tony
for a great presentation,

1542
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:34,250
great topic, timely topic.

1543
01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:36,840
And certainly it sounds
like an evolving topic

1544
01:00:37,730 --> 01:00:41,080
that we'll be following
for a long time to come.

1545
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,500
Folks, if you had more questions

1546
01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:43,840
and you haven't got a
chance to ask 'em tonight,

1547
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:48,271
we do have an ask the team
feature on our website,

1548
01:00:48,271 --> 01:00:50,590
www.maplemanager.org.

1549
01:00:50,590 --> 01:00:53,060
So you are welcome to
follow up with questions

1550
01:00:53,060 --> 01:00:55,850
on the website and myself, Tony,

1551
01:00:55,850 --> 01:00:57,700
and some of our other project team members

1552
01:00:57,700 --> 01:00:59,870
will probably see them there.

1553
01:00:59,870 --> 01:01:01,280
So I wanna thank Tony for his time,

1554
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,170
for his great presentation.

1555
01:01:03,170 --> 01:01:05,320
Thanks everyone for joining.

1556
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:06,723
Feel free to sign off.